one duff tack
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11696
Printed Date: 10 Jul 25 at 5:56am
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Topic: one duff tack
Posted By: Rupert
Subject: one duff tack
Date Posted: 03 Oct 14 at 8:38am
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In most of our long running PY threads, not to mention threads on boat finish and a plethora of other things, the phrase "no more effect than one duff tack" comes up with regularity. So, if we all do a duff tack every now and again, what are the various techniques people have for a good tack? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Replies:
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 03 Oct 14 at 8:50am
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In a Musto; 600 etc repeatability and patience which means keeping teh boat flat as long as possible and not over steering. oh and acceptance that sometimes you get it wrong and have to dump kicker and put the "this vehicle is reversing sirens on" ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 03 Oct 14 at 8:57am
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Practise practise practise
Don't just go out when its racing - go out when there's no pressure on and do 50 tacks, 50 gybes etc. Tacking/gybing in racing then becomes second nature. I can never understand why people continually moan about not improving but havent got to grips with good boat handling first ? |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 03 Oct 14 at 8:58am
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What he said. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 03 Oct 14 at 9:42am
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Hunts is a small lake where the wind shifts around a lot. Because of this and because of the short legs there is a far higher emphasis on boat handling and picking the right way up the beat than there is on a more open water. A bad tack can quite easily lose you several positions/seconds. This can make a big difference once the spreadsheet comes in to play as positions are often decided by a few seconds each way. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 03 Oct 14 at 10:03am
| All my tacks are 'duff'! However I am trying a different method realising the error of my ways. Instead of prostrating myself in the bilges while the boom whizzes over my head I am trying to duck under the boom as it attacks me then scramble through with my nether regions. It seem better in light wind. |
Posted By: L123456
Date Posted: 03 Oct 14 at 10:09am
Good question ... I wonder what the variance is is say a reasonably large one-design fleet on finishing times? I suspect we don't know because no-one ever times fleet races just notes positions. I could think there could be at least 15 minutes between first & last in a race of 90 minutes. What does that equate to in PY range on say a boy of 1000 PY?
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Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 03 Oct 14 at 10:10am
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Soundfs like an ideal candidate for some practise.
Its amazing how much easier racing becomes when you no longer have to think too hard about tacking. A Saturday spent practising may be worth many times a couple of Sunday races ? Sailing is a bit unique in that regard - many people simply don't sail unless there's a race being held ? How can you reasonably expect to improve without training ? Do any other sports work in this way ? |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 03 Oct 14 at 10:16am
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'one duff tack' is catch-all for a crappy upwind performance. Sure, it quite literally means a screwed up tack, perhaps dropping the tiller, or scooping a bath-full when over egging a roll. It could mean banging your head on the boom, or getting our mainsheet knotted around your feet. We've all done it- and feel foolish and stupid and that we should know better. I also use it to describe those times when you over-shoot or undershoot a lay line, or when you tack and get headed, but you've got to see it through to regain ground to the centre of the course. Sail boat racing is like a Driving Test - the person who makes the least mistakes wins. I see a 'duff tack' as a minor fault on said test. Too many, especially in the same boxes - in this case - upwind - equals a major fault. ------------- |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 03 Oct 14 at 10:19am
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I find that the best duff tack is when you come out of the other side and miss the toestraps ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Oct 14 at 10:42am
Around 25% in every class I've ever looked at - or 250 points of PY. The results from the last Olympics are fully timed, makes interesting reading... http://www.sailing.org/olympics/london2012/results_centre.php Now I think about it its kinda suspicious that the range seems quite consistent between very different classes and even similarly wide at the Games. I wonder if its as much dominated by a tendency of mark roundings to force everyone into single file as anything else? Maybe there would be a difference between long races with few mark roundings and shortraces with many. Might be an interesting thing to research. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 03 Oct 14 at 10:48am
And it always happens right in front of the clubhouse where everyone is watching..... ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 03 Oct 14 at 11:01am
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I always took that to mean one duff shift, rather than the physical act of transitioning the boat from one tack to the other, I mean how can that go wrong? You shove that wiggle stick and round it comes.
I accept maybe in some boats in some conditions like mine with its full batten sail the flow doesn't re attach too quick in light wind, but the answer to that is simple. Have a different sail made.  ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 03 Oct 14 at 11:03am
Only 5% difference for the Finns - which is not unexpected - you'd expect closer racing at that level. ------------- Steve B RS300 411 https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page |
Posted By: hum3
Date Posted: 03 Oct 14 at 11:34am
From observing those when I've been running coaching, the old 'tack on the whistle' drill can clearly demonstate the benefits of tacking well and the gains possible...
Context does have a part to play here though too. A 'must make this tack perfectly into this gap of boats to lay the windward mark' is clearly more important manouver to get spot on than 'I'm on my own and should probably tack soon to cover the fleet'...
Pressure can make even well practiced folk feel like they've two left feet at times...
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 03 Oct 14 at 11:46am
It has it's place, as does gybing on the whistle and and quickly expose bad technique and provide coaching points. I do find that using a downwind slalom course can be a lot more fun for the people who are taking part especially if you set them off at 30 second intervals. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 03 Oct 14 at 11:57am
but dw slalom courses are a bitch to lay for a simple training exercise.... best reserved for snaking and carving moored sailing yachts in rivers and estuaries  ------------- |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 03 Oct 14 at 12:19pm
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Unfortunately the tacking on the whistle exercise is often seen as a 'warm up', or not analysed properly. Too often the tacks end up rushed and get worse and worse. For me a better exercise is boat on boat covering, where a duff tack is quickly exposed, and concentration much keener. Of course the absolute best is video analysis, but not everyone has that facility. For me a good tack is where I don't oversteer, get my feet straight under the toestraps on the new side and get the boat flat and driving asap. The reality is more that I will oversteer then miss the central kickboard and slide down to leeward without the grace of Jane Torville, leaving me an uphill climb to the new side where I then have to hoist myself out onto the wing... Dont even mention the duff gybes, ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Oct 14 at 12:27pm
I was amused by a comment from the runner up at the IC worlds (in San Francisco) on another forum...
You have to appreciate that was not only the wind strength, but the matching wave systems that cause the problems... |
Posted By: L123456
Date Posted: 03 Oct 14 at 12:40pm
25% ... That makes people who bitch about a few points on py look a bit daft. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 03 Oct 14 at 1:15pm
It does, except are you that worried about racing against people who are either so much better or so much worse in sailing standard than you? Surely the results you are interested in are those where just the odd % point or (far) less can mean the change of a place. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Oct 14 at 2:17pm
| And how often does that really happen if you look at real racing results, Rupert? And when it does, how do you know which way round is correct? |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 03 Oct 14 at 2:33pm
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Loads of time there is less than a minute between boats after corrections (so 2% in a 50 minute race, max) - I've been tied with people on handicap fairly often, too. Should I have been? No idea, but that is "what the handicaps said" - you should be glad about that. When I look around the fleet, I know who I'm in the same ball park as racing wise (though obviously, I'm better than them...) and we often get close results. If there is a novice out, I don't really think "woo hoo, I beat them by 25 minutes on corrected time", just as I'm not really worried about beating a novice at an Open meeting - my eyes are on the people close in speed. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: ChrisJ
Date Posted: 03 Oct 14 at 3:48pm
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Looking at Open Meetings over the last few years... We do windward / leewards, so the lap is quite short compared to a full triangle + sausage = 1 lap....
When we have a 3-lap race, it is rare for the leaders to lap the back markers. But when we have a 4-lap race, the leaders always lap the back markers. The 2000 class may be different to other classes - where the top people are top 2 at the Endeavour and other people may have only been sailing for a year or two. But it does support the 25-30% spread in results within any one class. |
Posted By: L123456
Date Posted: 03 Oct 14 at 6:21pm
So do you think that means you are the same skill level as them?
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 03 Oct 14 at 8:01pm
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On average, probably, unless the handicaps are wildly out. They are certainly the people I judge my sailing against. Skill level is odd - I expect mine changes a fiar amount from race to race, let alone compared to other people.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Oct 14 at 8:44pm
I just did a quick analysis on last years Wednesday series results at my club. based on winner = 100% and the least variation in anyones results was 100-106% and the greatest, excluding real beginners 111-145%. The latter was in a somewhat one trick pony class as you'd expect. About two thirds of the fleet had a variation of 15% or less. Interestingly the Lasers had by far the lowest range of variation, with 5 of the lowest 6 being Lasers, and the other the series winner. Also no Laser had a variation more than 11% % of winners time is the sum I have readily available, so on that basis our club sailors (a fairly typical lot I think) will perform in the region of 7% to 15% of range of performance on different days. Of course that includes variation in class performance due to weather, which implies there might be something in the old theory about Lasers being mediocre in all conditions rather than good in some but not others. |
Posted By: NickM
Date Posted: 03 Oct 14 at 11:36pm
| I wish people would take more note of this point that JimC always makes about the huge variations in time in single fleet racing. Our club race management system generates a "sailed at " PY figure for handicap races and often there is a 100 points variation from the official PY for some boats in a 45 minute race. And as Jim says part of this is down to the leaders getting away and enjoying free air and less congested mark roundings. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Oct 14 at 10:35am
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So, how much of that range is due to weather, and how much due to thigs going "right" or "wrong" for a particular helm on a particular race? Pretty sure we all get days when one race we nail the start, get the clear air, have a barnstormer. Go into the next race thinking we are Ben Ainslie, only to get sat on at the start by a beginner, catch weed up the 1st beat, sit in dirty air, have to go round the outside of the raft at the mark and finish the race thinking about taking up tiddlywinks instead. Given you are talking an average of more than 10% in finishing variation for 1 person, if one gets the great race, and one the crap one, the variation between the 2 will be enormous, and possibly (even for sailors who are nominally of the same standard) reversed in the next race. However, I would say that it is still possible to get close results in handicap racing against people who you feel are similar standard, especially if the boats don't have wildly different handicaps or performance characteristics. What it does suggest is that handicap bandings sailed scratch would not have too much effect on results, especially for clubs where they have a fair few boats in 20 point bands - clubs could make up their own to suit the boats they have. For us, we have the Solos, Lightnings a Versa, Firefly and some others all close on handicap, and then we have Supasofas, Lasers and some others. Would encourage people to find a boat that suits in a certain speed band, rather than a particular class, which might not suit sailing ability or body type. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |