Contenders - a class HP dinghy
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11688
Printed Date: 12 Jul 25 at 3:08am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Contenders - a class HP dinghy
Posted By: kneewrecker
Subject: Contenders - a class HP dinghy
Date Posted: 30 Sep 14 at 2:51pm
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So - what are the real pluses and minuses to the class? Is the low boom fear irrational? It looks low, the videos on youtube look frightening, but then when I see them being sailed in the flesh it doesn't seem to be a major, major issue.... with respect, the guys don't seem to making as much of a dogs dinner of the corners as one might expect looking at the boat when ashore. Anyway, they've got a 100+ boat Europeans heading to Highcliffe in a couple of years and the class seems to be doing better than it has for a long time from an outsiders perception point of view. What's the deal? I'd also point out the class seems to hook people in for the long haul... the same names are at the top of the fleet as were there 10 years ago + when I first joined this forum to ask about them.
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Replies:
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 30 Sep 14 at 2:54pm
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The few times I have sailed one I never found the boom excessively low but I did find i needed a 3rd hand a lot of the time! Nice boat to sail especially once you got it going on a reach or upwind. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Null
Date Posted: 30 Sep 14 at 3:15pm
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I struggled with the boom height the few times i sailed one, but i can imagine technique has so much to play. I nearly bought one a while back when i saw Ben Mcgrane messing with shorter leech mainsails. I am pretty sure i will own one, one day but would want to sail somewhere fairly open first. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 30 Sep 14 at 3:21pm
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They're too heavy yet they add lead, the rig is ancient but it seems to work, they are bloody fast and in a breeze they should wear gun belts.
Oh did I mention absurdly inappropriately priced wood from some brand that sounds like my new brand, Brunotti? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 30 Sep 14 at 3:23pm
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As an addendum if ever a class needed a light build smaller modern rig makeover suitable for humans, this one does. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 30 Sep 14 at 3:26pm
absolutely- always one of the boats I need to tick off the bucket list. Along with a Finn and 505. ------------- |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 30 Sep 14 at 3:32pm
what- and immediately consign the entire fleet to the scrap heap? If lighter and a rig overhaul were 'essential', surely the RS600 would have created a more lasting dent in the numbers- which seems fairly stable on the Nationals measure: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/class/Contender/attendance" rel="nofollow - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/class/Contender/attendance It's certainly well over halfway up the races recorded on PY list for 2014- and the largest recorded singlehanded trap boat in PY racing. (No idea how MPSs are out there class racing now they've grouped up though... so take that 'claim' with a pinch of salt.)
------------- |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 30 Sep 14 at 3:35pm
What all 63 of them? Who even cares let them join Cee bee bees, or whatever that old racing dinghy class thing is called, I forget. If us new generation sailors who demand quality, ease, lightweight and performance get what we want to hell with old people.  ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 30 Sep 14 at 3:44pm
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Did the introduction of a carbon mast lower the optimum helm weight? As for being a bandit, I've seen them struggle to beat good Lasers in the light stuff. As ever the the PY is an average of light airs (very slow) and windy (very quick). Combine with a Laser 8.1, maybe, for an optimum quiver of boats. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 30 Sep 14 at 3:54pm
Well, they're a wire boat so I wouldn't expect them to perform without it being in use, however we do have one lighter guy who can make it go, as our Alto has deteriorated he can now see us off in light conditions even off the wire (or maybe because of the new carbon mast i hadn't thought of that), but yes in that the good lasers will win. Because they are bigger bandits than the Contender which I always seriously thought was well pitched handicap wise for the reason you give, even so it suddenly has been decreed to be much faster according to this new baseless computer algorithm that we're going to hear about in November if any of you guys fancy a beer, banter and question of the status quo y'all would be welcome... ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 30 Sep 14 at 5:22pm
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surely the carbon mast offers the option to add a stiffer profile for heavier sailors? I have to say, I've been put off the class in the past by reports of poor 'wednesday evening' performance. I'm now of the opinion not to bother sailing (anything!) in less than 8 knots of breeze, so it's less of an issue than it used to be. ------------- |
Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 30 Sep 14 at 5:50pm
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The main issues in light winds are the lack of rocker and also the long boom that tightens the leach (although the lighter carbon boom does help).
People do use different set ups to stiffen the rib but it isn't that much different to the ali rig in that regard. In light winds it just isn't much quicker than a Laser -- if at all. In the Phantom or Finn when its light we wont see them. |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 30 Sep 14 at 6:05pm
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Pure Class. What's not to like? Looks easily the most elegant (single handed) thing out there. Got length for nice upwind action and perfectly docile manners downwind. The boom? It's as difficult as you want to make it, I have a short leech sail and can nearly walk under it! They're tough, both in durability and seakeeping. You can actually park it and have rest without it wanting to fall over. |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 30 Sep 14 at 6:07pm
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Great post!
Btw- Does the short leech have a noticeable performance penalty? ------------- |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 30 Sep 14 at 6:14pm
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I can't comment on short leech performance from experience because I am 5ft 4ft, 75kgs, nearly 60 yrs old and not that good. BUT. I have read that good people have won major events with them. BTW. Not too sure exactly what short leech means, I think the commonly accepted sail pattern is shorter than the Class rules maximum.
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Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 30 Sep 14 at 6:17pm
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I sailed one for a season and they are very well mannered. Nice long water line and a stable platform to learn how to helm from the wire. I would get another but they are effing heavy to pull up the slip after a knackering race. They do go ok in light winds but it's the same story; you just need to get well forward and get the arse out of the water. But like any trap boat, boats like RS300 will run rings around you in the lighter winds. I flicked mine into windward quite often running by the lee as I sailed it with a massive twist in the sail to square it off . That with the plate right up and windward heel the boat starts to get nice and twitchy ! Quick but tippy seemed to be fast - unless you piss it in. Then you get to learn about San Fransisco Rolls. The whole mast rake thing is just because the plate is raised so much in a breeze going up wind. But it is a bit of a sod to tack unless you are a limbo dancer, especially when the kicker is on tight. The low boom is made worse because the cockpit depth is quite shallow and the centre main tower is quite a way back.. You need to tack, moving across the boat, behind the tower ( except in the light stuff when I could tack in front of the tower). And of course, the further back you are, the lower the boom is. If I sailed one again, and I might as they are just really nice to sail, I would shorten the leech. I'm not convinced it would be detrimental ; certainly no worse than a duff tack or missed shift. ------------- Steve |
Posted By: Alistair426
Date Posted: 30 Sep 14 at 6:29pm
| Do I remember a certain Ben McGrane winning the Nationals with a short-leeched main? |
Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 30 Sep 14 at 6:38pm
That pretty much proves to me there is no performance loss. Could be less pilot error makes up for the slight loss in sail area. I do wonder if you could sail the boat (upwind) with a shorter plate with a vertical leading edge and a more upright mast. Maybe there is something in the rules preventing a shorter plate ?? ------------- Steve |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 30 Sep 14 at 6:44pm
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As I am sure I have read somewhere that a smaller centre board could be better but not allowed, I think the foil shapes are included in the Class measurements. |
Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 30 Sep 14 at 6:46pm
Ah, foiled again... Perhaps the hole in the board where the pivot pin goes through could be moved ? Dunno. And got to stop this otherwise I'll turn into iGRF. ------------- Steve |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 30 Sep 14 at 7:12pm
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can material science come in to play? Okay the measurements might be restrictive, but you could always use a softer material - maybe G10 or something? ------------- |
Posted By: Iain C
Date Posted: 30 Sep 14 at 7:19pm
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Nice boats, I had one a while ago. They are quite unusual in their fit out, funny things like trap handles on the board downhaul, and a detachable mainsheet bridle thingy that allows the board to retract. The big disadvantages are a crippling weight...we are talking Fireball territory but without the extra hand at the end of the day. Getting under the boom when tacking is hard...you need to let the kicker off first. And when you capsize, you are really looking at an eskimo roll to get it back up. That said they are good in a blow...let's face it they need it...and they are bite the back of your hand beautiful to look at. I do feel that if they launched a "development" version, with a gooseneck down at deck level, an improved sheeting/board arrangement, and with 25kgs gone, it would be a far better proposition. But clearly it would ruin the class. I hate to say it, but if it were my money, I'd be spending it on a 600, which although not as "nice" to sail, has a far livelier feel to it, and is a much more user friendly proposition IMHO. Can't beat a Bonezzi for pure class though... ------------- RS700 GBR922 "Wirespeed" Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs" Enterprise GBR21970 Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra" |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 30 Sep 14 at 8:30pm
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I am now on my fourth or fifth contender. It is still my favourite boat. I am five foot eleven and have no problem getting under the boom for the tack - technique is king, and no real issues with the weight of the boat. Yes it is a tad heavier than some single handers, but that is very much made up for by sparkling performance. I suspect there could be as many as 150 boats at the worlds next year in Medemblik. It ain't broken, don't try to fix it. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 30 Sep 14 at 8:55pm
What Winging it says 
Don't get hung up on the low boom
 (getit) or the weight. Neither are such major issues in the big picture. |
Posted By: timeintheboat
Date Posted: 30 Sep 14 at 9:13pm
Ah yes I remember the lack of hands well! Awesome upwind out on the wire. Not a pond boat - they need room! ------------- Like some other things - sailing is more enjoyable when you do it with someone else |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 30 Sep 14 at 9:17pm
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The guy who sails one at our club (and was 10th at the Nats - and a little disappointed by that, so no slouch) has no trouble sailing it on a small pond, and can do well in the light stuff, provided there aren't any runs. I really must have a go.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 30 Sep 14 at 10:06pm
Whatever some folk say - they are very slow and frustrating in light airs. I bought a 600 because of the poor light wind performance Their weight and the tacking issues are non-issues though. |
Posted By: Roger
Date Posted: 30 Sep 14 at 10:26pm
Couldn't agree more, they are defiantly very slow in light winds and I never found the weight an issue. At a combined open in Weymouth a few years ago the Phantoms started 5 mins after a fleet of 65 very hot Contenders, I certainly managed to have caught the top 10 in the Contender fleet in a 45 min race in light winds. Next day F4 and only managed to catch the tailenders who went swimming, a boat of 2 halves really. Having said all that they are a superb boat to sail, particularly in class racing. I've owned 2, but many years ago before carbon rigs and low booms and really enjoyed them. Very good helms can compete on smaller ponds, but the rest of us really need open water to be comfortable in the boat, its a very rewarding boat to sail, great fun and it should be on every bodies bucket list. |
Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 30 Sep 14 at 11:57pm
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I have owned and raced Contender for 10 years now and although I sail other boats I will always have one.
Since the advent of Carbon rigs the weight range has increase to say 75kg up to 110kg (this was actually the first two helm weights at the 2013 worlds) and the light wind performance has improved slightly but will always be weak. The py has dropped lately which is expected as we have had some upgrades, but it is less of a aggregate of all wind ranges as most Contenders sailor wont bother with less than 10 knots, it seems about right. The class rules are always being challenged and the large board and high weight are up for discussion at the moment, however we have a strong international scene and the other euros are less interested in changing the formula than we are. The weight has been high at 83kgs to allow building in the beautiful wood veneers and at home, now that the builder has retired and epoxy is widespread I think it is realistic that the weight will come down in time, but it is unlikely to get too low as it is a lot of boat at 16ft and its stability in a decent sea is enhanced by its bulk. Shorter leaches are back in fashion with wavelength dropping 100mm of the most popular sail and north making even further cuts, some fast guys are winning in these so the trend goes up. I never found tack an issue, there is a different technique to other boats, but its a case of slow is smooth and smooth is fast. Nothing too surprising happens in a Contender so it is easily learned. The class is getting stronger around the world with Italy and Germany with massive fleets, the British are showing the same level of attendance trends as most other classes but we still expect to get 20 at an open and 40-50 at the Nats. The International events are great with very few ringers. ------------- |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 10:48am
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Drop the weight too much and you might find yourselves being flipped over between races at sea. I gather from Vandercraft that Phantoms became more vulnerable to being blown over while sailing after the weight came down; this was redressed somewhat by the carbon rig, but you've already made that move. Lower boat weight will also have the effect of lowering the optimum crew weight as that becomes a greater proportion of the whole ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 10:56am
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Okay - now this is going to be a controversial suggestion, but would a big square top (non-class legal) sail help for the lightwind evening PY sailing? (Accepting full disclosure to the RO as a prerequisite) ------------- |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 11:09am
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why bother - any trapeze boat is always going to be a compromise in light winds ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 11:13am
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good question... in response:
- to extend the wind range where the boat is fun - to mitigate the feeling that you are getting skunked week in, week out - to utilise the meagre advantages of non-class racing, where with suitable application, locally-adjusted PYs allow for experimentation of this ilk. it certainly isn't to: - win through an arms race - paint a lipstick sombero on a pork fajita - undermine a well established and universally respected ISAF class
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Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 11:20am
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They looked at a square top rig at the time the 600 came I think. I remember seeing it at the dinghy show. In the end it was binned but I cannot remember the reason behind that. ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: L123456
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 11:39am
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The Contender is like a big old Jag ... A classic with lots of grunt ... a great thing but modern replacements are superior ....
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 11:41am
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... or at least faster, assuming the modern replacements are the 700 and MPS - not sure what else comes into the catagory that has fleet racing.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 11:52am
Its not just the rig. The hull just sticks in the light (no rocker) and it will probably always struggle in those conditions. The decent guys at or cub just don't bother when theres no decent breeze. Its just one of those boats that goes from awful to awesome. A trial was carried out using a B14 rig (mast/main) - a terrible bodge that was slower. |
Posted By: Null
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 12:00pm
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I think Therein lies part of the problem. If people do not bother in light stuff and only sail in their chosen classes optimum conditions then the PY's will swing further and further to a number optimised to perfect conditions. The boat needs a PY reflective of all conditons then it needs to be sailed in all conditions. I appreicate this is almost asking the impossible. it strikes me that the Contender would be a good boat to own in a quiver, Its performance is so strikingly different between conditions. Maybe multiple boats is the way GRF should go. British moth for Drifters contender for windy stuff...
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Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 12:02pm
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The solution to the Wednesday evening problem is simply to get another boat, or have fun and go crewing.
------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 12:05pm
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I'd have thought that now boats have the carbon mast, a bit more area in the form of a square top sail would simply put the heeling moment back to where it was in the tin rig era. That said, I suspect it wouldn't make any meaningful difference to the boat's dog-like nature in light airs. An 800 at WSC now has a square top main and is in no way noticeably faster than it was before in any conditions; I almost have the impression it's slower. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 12:09pm
Contender owners need to have a pact to all turn out occasionally in their worst light wind conditions and take a big hit for the sake of the PY! Maybe park up between marks for a Mars bar. A big deviation does wonders for changing an average! ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 12:12pm
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Tactical Banditry !
------------- Steve |
Posted By: Null
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 12:15pm
Aha i like it. Sadly i think it would need a class wide agreement over the course of many many seasons.
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Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 12:31pm
It would, and even though the contender has a nice big comfy cockpit to lounge across in the light stuff, I'm not sure you would get this agreement. The class itself has a 5 knot average cut off, so opens just don't happen in the light stuff. Sure it would be good for the py if we stuck it out in the light stuff, but since the majority of us SAIL FOR FUN, why bother? There is decent enough class racing with lots of open, nationals, worlds etc, for the py not to be of great concern, and if we enter big handicaps where the py does matter, we're usually having too much fun to care. Anyway, http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/179319/Contenders-join-GJW-Direct-SailJuice-Winter-Series" rel="nofollow - fleet prizes, so still class racing. Win win. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 12:34pm
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nice attitude Nessa! And despite Russ's recent 'drifting in soft focus' inaugural D-Zero outing, I dare say sailing any boat, board or kite in sub 5 knots is just dull as sh1t after a while ;-) ------------- |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 12:34pm
There's your chance! Big turnouts, drifters in the Bloody Mary and Tiger Trophy maybe, and stick it out -no DNF's allowed! ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 12:36pm
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pursuit races don't count to PY adjustments, neither do GL results either apparently. ------------- |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 12:37pm
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Bummer! ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 12:44pm
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of course they might feature under Item : 4 Qualitative Feedback of the PYAG meeting agenda. you'll be more familiar with the colloquial terms used for this point in the minutes as recored by Grumpf: mollygoddling and gerrymandering iirc. ------------- |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 12:49pm
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The GL handicap for the contender is 968, which seems pretty harsh compared to RYA 980, but maybe there will be better turnouts now we have fleet prizes. I want to do a last worlds in the contender next year, but it is very dependent on my failing joints holding together. The D one is much kinder to sail, but as yet hasn't provided the thrill of that fast trapeze reach, or even upwind come to that. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 12:55pm
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I sailed an old contender once- years ago, in nearly no wind. Certainly not enough to wire from it. I can't really recall much about the experience to be honest, but in more recent history I'd have to cite the 600 as one of the nicest rides I've ever had close-hauled. I suspect the Contender is of its equal in this regard. I've definitely heard enough to try and get a demo sail in one next spring.... it's always been on the bucket list, it's just a case of working out if the timing is right for one next year, or stick to something probably better suited to light wind evening sailing. ------------- |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 1:25pm
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I really must try and blag a go, one of our guys has two, if do different can sail one at his dimensions then maybe I could.
One of our guys is really quite devastating in the light, even in a drifter, but he is a good sailor with lots of experience, but a bit light for the upper echelons of their nationals unless it is particularly light, but he places in the lower teens, which to me says two things, one it is a big boys tool and two they're bloody good sailors, because neither of our Contender sailors are slouches, the heavy one gets it in strong winds and the light one in lighter weather and when they do they take it over the water for the most part, if I beat either of them in whatever I'm sailing I consider I've done well. Funny thing though the skill hasn't transferred to Race boards which I would have though it would by now, one of them (the stronger wind sailor) has been joining the Tuesday night windsurfers for some time now almost as long as I have been dinghy sailing, but he doesn't seem to be a) as Aggressive on the start line as he is in a Contender or b) as fast, which I find puzzling, the thing with windsurfing at our place, it is all about the start, there is no pulling it back like there is in dinghies, not without a huge amount of kinetic input which not many of us have left these days either. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Null
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 1:40pm
Agreed mate, i dont usually bother. But new boat itch that needed scratching so needs must!!! I was only joking about the Py thing. Why anyone would do something like that is beyond me! |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 1:43pm
There's no real way of converting pursuit results into times as required by a yardstick return - well, not without doing a whole lot of extra recording anyway. As for Great Lakes results, if they go in the club returns, and I think they mostly do, then they contribute to the PY results. They just don't have any especial weight in the calculations. One of the subtleties of the PY calculations is the "poor performer" algorithm, which excludes results where the finish is beyond a given percentage of the winners corrected time, I forget what. The primary aim of this is to exclude the results for the sailor who capsized nine times but valiantly carried on to the finish - praiseworthy, but not very desirable in the results. However another effect of this is to exclude results where the boat is really drastically not performing - foil moths in sub foiling conditions being an obvious example. The effect of this for classes with rather binary performance can be significant, especially for those of us who aren't at the top of the fleet. Very few of my (universally dreadful) light airs results contribute to the PY result for instance. The result is that the PY does not reflect an average of all boats in every condition, but an average of reasonably sailed boats in reasonably suitable conditions, which in the context of a handicap to produce fair racing over a series is I think a reasonable strategy. |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 1:44pm
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If Bonnezzi has stopped building, who is making the new epoxy ones referred to earlier? Craziest thing I saw on a Contender (apart from myself) was a few people using cane tiller extensions, I guess it's cheaper than carbon and not too heavy, but bendy? 2nd thoughts, could have been Canoe's using cane, not Contenders.... but surely same logic applies.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 1:54pm
| A reasonable diameter bamboo cane isn't going to bend significantly unless your tiller loads are horrific which they certainly aren't on any Canoe I've come across... I've seen people using plastic cable trunking tube which I should have thought was far worse than bamboo. |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 1:56pm
Your post all makes sense, Jim, but how ironic that to make a bad light airs performance count, you have to sail really well! ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 2:01pm
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Have they stopped? Damn shame if they have. I think Joachim Happrecht is still building in Epoxy though. ------------- |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 2:04pm
i've always seen this as a bit of a 'leveller' in the system, quite often in light airs, skill is a smaller factor than simply being in the right place for a puff*, we've all done those races where there are boats heading "upwind" close hauled, while on the other side of the course, but heading to the same bouy, are folks with their kites up! I'd hate to think that kind of lottery was having a big influence. *ok, i accept there is some skill in reading & learning the clouds/wind/water patterns but I'd also refer you to doubts raised by the likes of Sir Ben about the Nothe course regarding it's "lottery" tendencies, so even the very, very, best suffer from this stuff with the rest of us
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Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 2:05pm
that's what I took out of EJ's post on page 3
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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 2:06pm
but not everyone wants turbo charged fuel injection.... especially when the carburettor produces such a satisfying, throaty roar.
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 2:08pm
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Equally, at my level the best usually end up ahead even in drifters. But yes, maybe it is more about the helmsman than the boat in the light stuff. I think a lot of people sailing boats which are slow for their PY in light airs get psyched out and then go slower than they need to. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 2:11pm
agreed, even when I know I should sit still and wait, I often find myself mid-tack/gybe thinking why are you doing this, it's just losing what little speed you had built up, but the temptation to go 'over there where the wind is' is just too strong sometimes
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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 2:11pm
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well I'm no one to talk - in club racing drifters I get thoroughly bored and head in. If I've enjoyed the first lap when there was some breeze then I usually quit at that point than watch was a 'quick fix' turn into a long and arduous drift. Might as well get home and stock up some brownie points.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 2:51pm
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I've always thought that the ability to sail in very light winds is far more of a skill than sailing in anything up to the point where those around you are falling in. Once a boat is moving, the skill is getting it moving faster than everyone else. Positioning a boat to take advantage of the tiniest of gusts when it comes along, being able to concentrate on sagging tell tales when everyone else is bored like KW takes a different kind of skill, I grant you, and yes, you can be caught out when the wind fills in from somewhere you didn'texpect it to or couldn't get to, but it does often seem to be the same people who "get lucky" in a drift. I used to be better at it than I am now. These days the distractions of aching back and knees, and of family life mean I spend less time sailing in drifters, and can concentrate less well when I do. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 3:02pm
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I agree - definitely a dark art, one I find that the older I get, the less inclined I am to learn its intricacies. All power to those who do though... I'd rather go for a bike ride, or just spend time with my kids. ------------- |
Posted By: L123456
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 3:23pm
Yep ... owning an old jag has many attractions ... but it is still and old jag ..
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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 3:27pm
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other than the trap, I can't really see where the similarity is with the 700 or MPS- they are dedicated (proper) asymmetric dinghies. Great for windward/leeward racing with other HP asymmetric boats. No good if you don't want the distraction of a kite when sailing singlehanded. I see the contender as having more in common with the IC, or even the Blaze in reality. You probably need enough space to stretch its legs, so you can forget some of the tiny puddles around here. The criticisms / presumptions it faces seems to have been clarified here.
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 3:37pm
Fully out on the racks in a Blaze you are probably a similar distance from the centreline as you would be trapezing in a Contender, with a similar sized rig there is definitely some truth to that statement! ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: L123456
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 3:38pm
I think the contender has 2 vices; low boom (which can be addressed a bit) and it is heavy (which cant) ... It benefits from a strong following around the globe ... especially, I believe, Aus & Germany.
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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 3:45pm
Anything is possible, just don't expect it to be class legal, nor that everyone in the class will flock to your innovation. [TUBE]3IXUzVCBkMk[/TUBE] ------------- |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 3:49pm
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I suspect a normal Contender is a damn sight easier to sail in a relaxed manner than an MPS or 700. Even at 64kg, I was quite happy to go for a play in a Contender in trapezing conditions where I'd have found a 700 or MPS much more daunting. The latter certainly seem to require quite a bit of commitment/practice just to sail half-decently, whereas I could pick the Contender up quite quickly (OK, not literally) [edited after KW's intervening post]
------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 3:56pm
The Contender is heavy and does have a low boom but I have, the few times I had the chance to have a go in one, found it a joy to sail, especially in trap weather, so I can fully understand the considerable following. Long may the Contender continue  ------------- Rodney Cobb Suntouched Sailboats Limited http://www.suntouched.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.suntouched.co.uk [EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk |
Posted By: allanorton
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 4:38pm
As far as I know Harprecht (& most of the German sailors) voted against epoxy construction, I think he builds in Vinylester. Chris Somner (UK builder) m http://www.cserve.co.uk/content/boat-building/index.php" rel="nofollow - http://www.cserve.co.uk/content/boat-building/index.php makes Epoxy Contenders, as does Luca Bonnezi (ITA) http://www.bonezzisailing.it/index.php/en/" rel="nofollow - http://www.bonezzisailing.it/index.php/en/ There maybe other builders using epoxy now, EJ may be along later to add more info.
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 5:09pm
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What happens at international events then, are the Germans stuck without while everyone else has epoxy boats? ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 5:30pm
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With the generous min weight, does epoxy make any difference? I thought the rule change had something to do with wood boats v's GRP - I'm sure someone on here will remember. Seems unlikely that Harprecht would do something like build sub standard boats - after all, there is choice in the market. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 7:20pm
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High weight, low boom and poor low-wind-fun aside ... decent ones are like rocking horse excrement. Having kept tabs for a few years I see only hyper priced new and nearly new and ancient has beens on the market. When a mid range boat (£3k to £4k) comes up it's snapped up real fast. Solution to the low poor wind fun seems to be to buy an IC or a National 12 for the light days (at my club anyway) ------------- Javelin 558 Contender 2574 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 7:45pm
| Much as I love the IC I'd have trouble recommending one as a light airs venue boat. They're pleasant enough to sail in the light provided you don't have the urge to tack every 20secs, but its not the boat to go roll tacking on every micro shift. |
Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 9:03pm
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Of course Bytes drift well because the sail retains shape. GP's go well on our pond in patchy light stiff because once they get moving the weight carries them through the dead bits. Mind you...how about an A Rater?
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Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 9:45pm
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The Germans don't have to buy just from a German builder, they can buy from whichever builder they choose!. As far as I know one of the main reasons for going to epoxy was to make the hulls stay stiff for longer. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 9:58pm
I must be missing something here. The Germans vote such that their builders are constrained not to use epoxy, but are then free to buy boats from foreign sources which will last longer. Talk about penalising your home industry, or what? ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 10:46pm
Sounds like a typical way a class would act. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 10:52pm
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'They' along with the British class should be pensioned off to the CVDRA and a new light built modern fitted, short leech sailed version built.
But then again who really would even buy it. Probably the front runners of the existing class. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 01 Oct 14 at 11:54pm
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AllContenders can be built in epoxy since 2011. One German builder chooses to build in vinylester as he has a manufacturing process that fits it. Before 2011 epoxy was not permitted except when cold moulding wood boats this odd idea was to keep the wood boat competitive against plastic as they can be heavier if not. As the beloved bonezzi are not available now and epoxy is free to use for all. Chris somner will build you a boat out of epoxy or vinylester. Epoxy is more expensive but should last longer. We are yet to see any speed difference between epoxy vinylester or wood/epoxy in fact the recent Nats top3 had one of each ------------- |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 02 Oct 14 at 1:02am
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That's more like it. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 03 Oct 14 at 9:38am
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Being the owner of a lovely Bonezzi Contender that has no lead I would have to get the plane and sander out to reduce the hull weight :(( However I think they could shave 5 to 10kg of weight quite easily without affecting the performance too much. Remember if you make too light they will float higher and be much twitchier. I think the weight stability is a good thing and you just live with it on the beach. My boat is easier to handle on the beach as I have an aluminium trolley. You don't always have to take weight out of the boat! ------------- Bonnie Lass Contender 1764 |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 03 Oct 14 at 10:02am
That's a very good point. Aluminium trollies can save you a bunch of weight - probably at least as much as a class weight redn. A Miracle's trolley I used seemed to weigh as much as the boat! ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 03 Oct 14 at 10:23am
Good to hear from you Mark! Any photos of your new boat? All the best, James ------------- |
Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 06 Oct 14 at 9:09pm
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I loved the (4) Contenders I owned, however when I started sailing on a smallish lake I found the results were pretty much top 3 (>F3) or bottom 3 (<F3). If the wind was blowing across the lake and gusty it didn't matter how windy it was because I couldn't wire on the reaches without stopping for a swim now and then. Reluctantly I changed class but would change back in a beat if I were sailing on a bigger bit of water. I saw some truly amazing tacking where guys got under the boom despite it virtually pinging off the tiller. I however (being fairly large) found had to let the kicker off to tack in anything over F4, which was fine. The weight (of the boat) was an issue when I was unfit on a steep slipway. Fitness makes a bigger difference in the Contender than it appears at first sight I would say.
------------- Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36 |