PFDs- what's your view?

(For the benefit of the poll, please restrict this to Adult only sailing / competitors)

Isn't Group-Think where a cohesive group makes decisions contrary to scientific or objective evidence?

Before you 'challenge the Group-Think', maybe you should 'confront the science', and 'consider the politics'.

There's abundant research demonstrating 'lifejackets save lives'.

I realise that some of the research is question-begging, and some sponsored by organisations with a clear bias or preconception, but at least some of it rigorous, and I would challenge you to find any research demonstrating that wearing of lifejackets or other PFD has no significant effect.

Entrapment I'd say ... does a BA help or hinder in entrapment cases?

I have been swept under by a rack and have had to swim down before coming up to clear the boat, if i had a BA on i am pretty sure i would not have been able to

The sailing i do is higher risk than most and i make my choice on the balance of pros and cons to make it as safe as possible, and as it is my life i feel that decision is only mine to make

The, thankfully, few cases of dinghy-related fatalities seem to be as a result of entrapment but in my, extensive (45yrs) dinghy sailing experience, you are far more likely to become separated from your boat (fall out, secondary capsize, etc) and then a bit of help with floating is greatly appreciated.

Having spent some time at the front end of an 18ft skiff, I have experienced the freedom of pfd-less sailing and wouldn't dream of wearing a pfd windsurfing out at sea where, in reality, I'm far more likely to come to grief. 

I think it's a bit like cycling helmets...once you get used to them you feel kind of weird without one.

BA's are exactly that, an aid. 

They are not designed to 'save life' as a life jacket is. A life jacket (and anyone who has done Sea Survival 'in a pool' will know) is designed to force you to float on your back supporting your head out of the water should you be unconscious. It is near impossible to turn on your front in the water, then again it is near impossible to do much anything once they are inflated and I know of people who have had to cut them away as they were more a hindrance to climbing back on board a sailing vessel, or even a life raft is pretty tricky without assistance. You also have the issue of the life jacket drowning you if you are being dragged (again I have had the unfortunate experience of being indirectly involved in an incident where this happened, which was quite sobering). 

A buoyancy aid is designed to aid in buoyancy and add to the positive buoyancy generally by whatever kit you are wearing. If you are unconscious it will not flip you onto your back if you are 'face down'. I agree that they can be a hindrance scrambling back on board especially those with ridiculous front pockets.

(NB I have noticed allot of pictures of MR's with crew not visibly wearing a BA, on, or noticeably under tight fitting rash vests)

Having rowed competitively for ten years, rowing boats (of the racing variety on rivers) tend not to go out in harsh conditions. Bare in mind that in a rowing boat, the boat is built with the aim that the crew is sitting at water level and there isn't a huge amount of free board. Also capsizes don't happen that often, and when they do you don't really get separated from the boat. Windsurfers (I guess) are tethered to the board by a safety line around their ankle. Sailors, can quite easily get separated from the boat. If you are on the board and fall off, you could end up a few feet away. It would be vary easily to get swept apart. 

It could also be a hark back to when dinghy sailors wore oily type waterproofs and woolen jumpers. 

Frankly I see no reason why they should be mandatory- each to his own, just like cycle helmets.

Yes ... it is a defect in evolution ...

I'm not sure about a helmet training you to duck further either; it might have made me a bit blasé, but I will certainly continue to wear one.  One Wednesday I went out for a cruiser race and only at the last moment decided to wear a helmet, thinking it superfluous.  Lucky I did - the reefed mainsail meant the boom was lower than usual and I got a clout - without serious consequences thanks to the hard shell.  I think a combination of cap-peak and glasses cut down my vision upwards of booms etc.

Why doesn't that surprise me?

shame you couldn't keep your other helmet under wraps there though.....  

I have on three separate occasions recovered unconscious humans from water into a RIB.  One was wearing a bouyancy aid: easy job, despite the fact they were 6 foot 2, and about 100kgs, before being in wet sailing gear.  Might have been harder but I had two great handles, aka the shoulder straps.  And I was able to create some lift by pushing down against teh bouyancy before pulling up.

The next was much, much harder.  No bouyancy aid.  About 8okgs.  Only a slippery all in one (remember those) to try and grab hold of.

The other was not wearing a bouyancy aid.  They had been in the water longer than anyone could swim, with or without a PFD.   Not pleasant.  The task made even more unpleasant by the fact that there was nothing to grab hold of.

I'd add that my 7 year old struggled until recently to get into his Tera after a capsize.  But we have taught him to push himself down against the bouyancy and then pull up and in.  Works a treat.  Gives the lie to the fact that it's harder to climb in with a BA.  Given good technique it can and will help.  But I'll agree there are some design flaws with big pockets on the front.

I come from an area that has mandated PFDs in dinghies for decades. One of the sailing mags used the death of my father (a multiple champ) as evidence of the need for PFDs. I tend not to buy the argument that PFDs can trap you in an inversion because when I'm sailing on shallow waters I have regularly pulled myself down to the bottom to pull the mast out of the sticky mud (dragging it out physically was easier and faster than messing about on the CB).

On the other hand, if you are unconscious a PFD is of little use; as the head of US Sailing's Safety Committee said to me, all it does is help them find your body. This is the case even if you're wearing a "full" highly-buoyant lifejacket, apparently, as you tend to turn to face the waves when unconscious and the waves splashing in your face will fill your lungs unless you manually deploy the splashguard some jackets have.

I have also found that I swim much slower with a PFD, but then again if I was wearing a wetsuit, spray jacket, boots etc and had no PFD I could be in more trouble.

I tend to think that the standards and rules are written by too many people with too little practical experience - certainly that was the case with the Standards people down here, who refused Yachting Australia's pleas for safety harnesses to have a clip at each end - a guy I met died horribly as a result of that. It's not nice to be out searching for people you know, and seeing the hours tick by until you realise you're now just looking for bodies.

It would be great to see the negligence laws changed to put the decision and responsibility back on to individual adults, but maybe the best thing would be a really good check to see whether current PFDs are suitable and to allow them not to be used in hot, windless conditions.

That's a great insight, Chris.  I'll try to remember that reasoning.

While I'm absolutely against making helmets mandatory in both cycling and sailing, my hard-shell cap has saved me a good few painful cuts and scuffs with the resulting problems in the shower over subsequent days. 

I get where you are coming from - but I would also point out that the fact that a PFD makes a body easier to find is in itself an important argument.

Design wise as well, there is a big difference between a Kayaking (low slung big front pockets) and sailing specific BA's

This poll is quite telling- there are those of us who conform to authority, never questioning perceived wisdom.  They respect their place in the chain of command. There are others who challenge this and active look for experiences outside of the norms of our own narrow fields of direct experience to satisfy their hunches and scepticism.  (Spending my teen years in a part of the world with a traditional fishing community would highlight a more well travelled and certainly more Time-On-The-Water bunch of seafarers who wouldn't touch a BA, ever- culturally and safety concerns considered, although they carry lifejackets for when it gets really hairy, probably an EU reg or something - but they are for conditions our toys are not rated to be sailing in, unless you've got a Finn.)

Society needs both types of people- it probably needs more conformists than free-spirits for sure- and strong leadership comes from both traits... and like everything in life, it's not an either/or - there are shades of grey most of us probably fall in.  The fact that 60% agree they should be mandatory is probably 'about right'.  If we all suddenly decided BAs should be optional, it would probably backfire and we'd face MORE legislation and regulation!

The only challenge I have to your post is how we are shaped by our experiences and considering the wider impact over personal views- having been trapped under an MPS sail once my BA was not my friend, and having rescued my sister from a capsized dinghy with the tiller through the arm and neck of her BA at Grafham, pinning her face down in the water I couldn't help but think thank God we were sailing together in a 420- it was probably the only time mind! So our set of experiences are different- which leads to different personal conclusions from which to base our judgements on the question posed.  Neither of us are better qualified to judge what the wider implications are from based on our experiences alone.

Anyway, to lighten the mood a little, what do you see:

1) Supermodel and Victoria's Secrets girl, Doutzen Kroes in a skimpy bikini

2) a 470 with a freidriksen ratchet block, T-Bar handles- suggesting an early 2000's heritage, maybe late 90s

3) a stupid woman without a buoyancy aid on

Personally I'm somewhere between 1 and 2 

By the looks of the frying pan grip, she might well be progressing to a 49erFX.  

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Last night on TV there was that programe of old newsreel films the subject being the sea and sailors. It was shocking to see two small children rowing a collapsible boat, no lifejackets! There was also some geezer demonstrating his round the World boat in slacks and a check shirt, no tie however, standards were slipping in 1960. A pair of sporting chaps sailing a trap boat of some sort in yellow oilskins and plimpsoles. There was a lady offshore power boat sailor who surprisingly, "was a mother of three" a ladies rowing club where the girls kept leaving to get married (obviously rowing and potato peeling do not mix) and a Dockers rowing club who could not enter Henley, a matter of class of course...perfectly acceptable.

My personal preference is that for 'normal' dinghies they should be mandatory. For Skiff type dinghies they should be optional as during a capsize there is a reasonable chance you will need to swim down before you can surface, any kind of PFD will make this difficult if not impossible. Doesn't change the fact that if you are unconscious you are still in trouble, all a BA will do is help you to float, it will not save your life.

I will admit that on 2 occasions I have completely forgotten to put mine on and it did feel better to sail the boat without one.

Against that I have been knocked out of the boat on 2 occasions by the boom, one where I briefly lost consciousness (and had concussion for 3 days). I was sure glad I was wearing it then!

Helmets I am dead against them being made mandatory for sailing. The 1 time I wore a helmet I hit my head every tack/gybe and decided never again! For kids they can be a good idea, then again the boom can be padded as well to start with.

Helmets for cycling I 100% agree with. You are far more at risk of coming off a bike and getting a serious head injury then you are likely to for sailing.

Extra points for those who have had a swim because of it - especially frightening if you didn't extricate yourself before hitting the water.  Hence the reason some recommend you wear a rash vest over the BA, but then there's nothing for the RIB crew to grab hold of.

I'm coming to the conclusion that a close-fitting impact vest ticks the most boxes.

The right BA properly fitted will prevent the tiller issue.

I'm going to practise swimming down in a BA and wetsuit.  Can't recall an issue personally.

If you say so...   

Helly Hansen will love you Matt.... now we need three BAs each.  One to wear with shorts and t-shirt.  One to wear with a wetsuit and spray top.  And finally one to wear for the depths of winter with wooly-bears, drysuits and offshore jackets!  

that's good luck then, conversely I can... a BA getting in the way I as I unhook to scramble out from underneath an MPS sail, only to find the back of it caught up against a shroud that needed more wriggle to get free from.  

I bought a GILL Aero top or whatever it was called after that.  

I would suggest that a controlled test in a swimming pool or pond from a Laser 2000 is not quite the same a unannounced f*ck-up.

I must admit, I quite like the look of these. I wonder how many N's they are rated to. I noticed in the marketing material it states they are 'Not A Life Jacket' well neither is a buoyancy aid.................

Last used it on the D-Zero test day:

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The way the buoyancy aid jiggles about when the helm of that first boat (male, red ba) it looks a bit loose around the torso. Wouldn't that slip over the head?

What was it Graeme says, 'rules are for the observation of some and guidance of others'

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I think that's the curry he had the night before jiggling under the surface.... I wouldn't blame Neil Pryde for that one.

If they are sold as Impact 'Flotation' vests surely they have to be CE Approved and must have a Newton value.

The less bulk the better, having serious issues getting hung up on a proper kicker in the front of a Scorpion at the moment.

I never had an issue in the Scorp when I crewed them. The only issue i could see where it might get in the way is if you have the pivoting bar type on kicker arrangement. A cascade (even with a stand off part way down to control how the force was applied through the mast) never caused me any issues.

The arrangements may have changed since I last sailed one though, it was 10 years back!

How kind, that's me.  I had forgotten my BA so borrowed one, then got in trouble by the rescue crew as i hadn't done the zip up.

That aside, i have a magic marine BA that's a vest style pull over your head job it does the job fine however i would like something closer fitting as i find it a bit cumbersome.  However i have never had a problem pulling myself onto the board in it.  

Hi jeffers, That was meant to read proder kicker which is in fact as you mention the pivoting bar that extrudes from the mast step and usually into my back. I have a Gul Code Zero BA which I wouldn't consider as super bulky but still gets hung up. Most of my sailing kit has rips in the small of the back from catching on it. 

You tack facing backwards then....I always used to face forwards as there is 6ft 1 of me to get through the gap.

Yup, face backwards, keeps weight further forward through the tack, also continuous jib sheet is lead back to the thwart , so makes more sense to face backwards.

Am 6'1" but fairly slight, if faced forward would end up with head in kicker, weren't we talking about helmets as well??

Well any piece of kit can get caught.  I thought your opposition to a BA was based on not being able to swim down against the flotation to extricate yourself?  Or perhaps to take off a harness that was caught.  But that doesn't seem to be what you're saying here?

By its very nature a practise is going to be controlled.  But I'll be doing it so I understand what my actions on might need to be - can I dive down or do I need to take it off.  Same as getting the kids under a turtled boat to show them that there is no need to panic if they end up there.

Bottom line, experience tells me if I were sailing the boat again now, I'd wear my impact vest, not a BA.

' helmets' including bump caps and canoeing  helments can cause as many problems as they solve .

Turtle Power!

It's taken a decade for it to become more common place.  

ah- that makes sense, I had assumed they more the skater boy style 'peaked helmet'.  

Don't wear backwards, Vanilla-Ice style though please ;-)