Good Question Getafix...
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11673
Printed Date: 12 Jul 25 at 4:58am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Good Question Getafix...
Posted By: kneewrecker
Subject: Good Question Getafix...
Date Posted: 23 Sep 14 at 7:56pm
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From the Barts Bash...
- now here's a few thoughts: 1) the be and end all of one design racing - there was more than one comment that celebrated the diversity of boats entered. Maybe the festival type array and variety of craft on show is actually something that inspires take up and participation? Everyone welcome 2) handicaps - best thing about the Bart Number- no one seems to have a clue, but everyone raced together and there has been no whinging / moaning etc Couple these ideas together and maybe the solution is mixed fleets but bin off the handicaps? Everyone races those around them- maybe in similar boats, Supernovas vs Aeros : Canoes vs 300s etc or maybe simply because that's the race of today as it's light/moderate/heavy conditions when the Albacore genuinely does give the Musto Skiff a run for its money. Anyone who wants to take it a tad more seriously can travel to class events, or find class racing in popular classes more locally either in isolation if there's enough bods, or through extracted / filtered results. Everyone happy...? Doubt it, but worth a try....
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Replies:
Posted By: pondlife1736
Date Posted: 23 Sep 14 at 8:20pm
| That's exactly what happens for me, I'm racing whoever is nearest. In light winds the Dart 15 is pretty hopeless (or maybe it's me!) so I'm racing lasers and solos. They don't like it of course but that's another story! When the wind get's up a bit I'm chasing the 300's, stronger still the IC. So even if there's no other cats out, there's always someone to race. The fact that it's different boats depending on wind strength is a bonus. Of course, I don't care who actually wins on handicap, I never look. Beating somebody on the water is all that matters. |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 23 Sep 14 at 8:34pm
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thanks for starting a new thread I've been pondering this since leaving Sunday. Now, I normally have a good time when I'm at the sailing club, it's why I go after all. Sunday's weather was nice; windy, relatively warm and all the usuals where there, so lots of familiar faces to talk to. But here's the odd thing, just as reported elsewhere, there was a plethora of 'others'. Now, I don't want to be unkind, some of these 'others' are bl00dy good sailors, far better than me, and some are pretty new to the game. But they don't come down often. Some I haven't seen for donkeys. Others managed to put aside family, shopping, other hobbies, church or whatever has drawn them away and came down, rigged up and went out. Open meetings don't draw the crowd like that event. Open 'weeks' draw a crowd, but not that big (or varied). So what is the reason?
I think the last one is a red herring. T'internet is awash with causes, flash mobs, record daftness and opportunities to be one of many, so I don't think the record attempt aspect was the big driver. So, without doing down the very good cause in this case in any way. I'm more inclined to believe it was the idea of taking part in something new and different and that, and here's my key reason, taking part would be fun. Even seeing who might turn up added a certain something to the whole thing? Anything we can draw from this to keep this kind of feeling going? |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 23 Sep 14 at 8:42pm
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3 races week in, week out, every Sunday, every year, in a never changing programme, against almost the same people. Does that describe many clubs? I'm bored with it, to be honest, and rarely do a series, just the races that happen to be on when I feel like it. On the other hand, I've put on some novice races for the juniors and their parents, and get a great response from people who, on the whole, have never done Sunday racing. The club would like me to try and get these people sailing on a Sunday - I confess, I don't think that will happen without a change somewhere in the way things are run. But any regular racing will become routine, so I don't really see that something like Bart's Bash can be used as a template - as an inspiration, yes.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 23 Sep 14 at 8:42pm
Think you'll find just about everyone did their local results on their normal handicaps. When the Bart numbers are published I have every confidence that the usual predictable suspects will do their usual predictable whinging with their usual predictable ignorance about how little difference the odd 1 or 2% usually makes on handicap results: especially as I happened to see from one of the few published results that the "Bart Number" for a Laser is 1088, which seems kinda familiar... |
Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 23 Sep 14 at 8:43pm
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Oh Jim don't spoil the warm feeling he has about PY's :-)
A clue for you James S=D/T |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 23 Sep 14 at 8:49pm
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Thinking about it further, is it what is happening on the water that matters at all? Is it the atmosphere off the water? Sunday at the club, all the same old men, eating the same lunch every week, sat at the same bench, having the same conversations, tutting at the children... Mind, some Open meeting circuits are rather like that, too. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 23 Sep 14 at 8:52pm
Might it be different reasons for different people and it was not any one that masde the difference but the combination? I mean, I don't give a [redacted] about the Guinness book of records, but judging by the bizarre things people do to get into it, and the amount of anti-faking bureaucracy around the record bids its clear that some folk do. It will be interesting what happens next year. Will it be greeted with the same effort - and I think many clubs put far more effort in than mine did - or will it be greeted with a degree of ennuie? Certainly I don't want to spend all that time gathering videos and photos and witness statements next year... |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 23 Sep 14 at 8:59pm
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"how can we get the same enthusiasm every week as we got for a one-off event with massive publicity and celebrity endorsement" ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 23 Sep 14 at 9:01pm
We can't. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 23 Sep 14 at 9:33pm
No, but that doesn't mean that we can't learn something worthwhile. If you only get 5% extra turning out its still worth making an effort. There must be precious few clubs who are doing everything right and can't find some improvements. QM made a major effort and had something like 50% more boats out than the total entrants for all their regular summer series (I looked at their on line results). Down the road we ran it in a much more low key manner and although it was our biggest turnout of the year it wasn't by that much and unlike QM rather more boats have entered our Summer series than were out on Sunday. There were still plenty of names to enter in the results database though - at least it felt like a lot! So what that does suggest is that a major effort to get people out will get people out. The question is how can clubs keeop up a sustained effort? |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 23 Sep 14 at 9:43pm
Ah yes, I remember that... Another anagram from you, just two letters: ET and no, I'm not talking about Spielberg's alien, I'm talking about that weird old concept where you win if you beat the other guy across the finish line.  ------------- |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 23 Sep 14 at 10:30pm
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Next year there will be a few less, then the year after even less then so on, until eventually it will be gradually passed by, unfortunately. In my opinion this should have been a one off. It's a great thing that happened and most people could see that and therefore made that extra effort to suspend what they normally do on a Sunday to take part. I can't see that happening too often again, normal service will be resumed..... Our club made a great effort and the members responded with enthusiasm that hasn't been seen in twenty years plus. If only half of those that were out on Sunday come again then it will e good. If only I could spend the time similarity that would be good too, but I can't .i have many other things to do and sailing takes up too much time to commit to anything other than a special event. ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 23 Sep 14 at 10:57pm
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I have no doubt that some will come again. I hope we see turn outs up for the other 'special' event, our club regatta. Sunday certainly showed the club that it could cope with more boats than many would have previously thought possible. Similarly Chi Harbour was rammed - but manageable. As for the World Record not being part of the attraction: tell that to my kids! The Macwhirters may be gone, but GWRs still grab their attention.
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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 24 Sep 14 at 12:51am
that, but this is a Field of Dreams kind of thread..... Build it and they will come. Just don't handicap the poor buggers too harshly ;-) ------------- |
Posted By: Roger
Date Posted: 24 Sep 14 at 10:37am
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I had the same thoughts as Maxi that this was best served, at least in this format as a one off event, the sense of being part of something special will decline over time and I have a gut feeling that if the same sort of event is planned next year then turnouts will be somewhat down. However given that the foundation will want/need to continue raising funds then maybe something different should be planned, same cause, just a different style event that will get peoples interest up again.... don't ask me what that should be but I'm sure we can think of something. Regarding spinoff, and getting club attendances up than the first thing this event has proven is that there are a lot of sailors out there who do like to get on the water, if not every week. Most clubs are as already stated stuck in a rut, 3 Sunday races against the usual people will inspire a few, but not the majority. Maybe the future lies with more one off events, sail it, sort it on the day, go home knowing how you did, take home the odd small prize and focus on the juniors. Make the racing different, mix handicap with pursuit, do fun races and waterborne challenges like the kids do, relay races, just something to make it different! |
Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 24 Sep 14 at 10:40am
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The atmosphere at our club is always good but for Barts there were more people enjoying that atmosphere with added sun, drink and food. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 Sep 14 at 10:56am
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Weather is the key factor, Barts was lucky, also coming on the end of a half decent summer.
All those other factors described above are relevant, but only to you committed sailors and possibly the returnees that got wind something was 'in the air' so to speak. I commented to one of ours as we sat there totally blown off with 30 knot offshore, just as well we hadn't scheduled Barts Bash, he said what's Barts Bash? That's the problem, most of our lot are totally disconnected with yottie world, they come, they sail they go home and go about their daily work and business. I bet when they saw all the news reports they wondered why we had nothing going on, which is another tale of disillusion by the person who was due to organise it. There are only a couple of us really that are in tune to events outside of our little bubble and most of them are RYA influenced and not always positive. So the single biggest obstacle we have at times is the RYA much as I love it on the one hand, you can't help but love to hate it on the other. The fact this probably had such traction was precisely because it fell outside of the normal scope of things, but sadly in our case the very folk who would have organised it on the ground have been so peeved off by events caused by the RYA, it didn't happen for us. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: pondlife1736
Date Posted: 24 Sep 14 at 10:59am
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Agree that doing something different felt like a big part of the day at our club. We had a bigger than usual turnout of about 80 boats, more kids and families, some first time racers, a few less fleet racers. It was definitely a different vibe. For the benefit of the cameras, we had a reaching start in front of the clubhouse - interesting, but probably wouldn't want to repeat the novelty too often.
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 24 Sep 14 at 12:09pm
Spot on, Rupert. The same-old, same-old week in, week out is indeed boring. But you try changing it and cover your ears for the yowls of complaint! Our weekly series racing still draws in more boats that any one-off specials we an dream up, be they long distance, short course, lapping, pursuit, or whatever. Maybe if we changed things then over time we'd end up with a different bunch of sailors, but it'd be a gamble. We also have a Saturday crowd who have a quite different approach, more novice and just happy to get afloat, but getting the twain to meet is indeed a problem. Maybe I'll try selling the next Sunday pursuit race to the Saturday lot - informal, more fun than the usual series stuff. Then on the day the wind will be F.0 or F.6.... ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 24 Sep 14 at 12:28pm
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So to play devils advocate, do we wait for the 'usual' to kill off numbers to the point where clubs consolidate and thus fleet sizes go up (perhaps with less races scheduled) and then we see a corner being turned? ... is there so many races and boat choices that it just leaves all those Sunday 'extra' sailors confused, not-engaged or simply just not motivated to turn up sufficient to drop other things down the list of priorities?
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 24 Sep 14 at 1:00pm
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How are things going at clubs where they insist on everyone sailing in a class start, with no significant handicap racing? We used to have that situation in the 90's, with a Commodore who nailed his colours to that mast. But then there was a coup d'état.... ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: MerlinMags
Date Posted: 24 Sep 14 at 1:05pm
I can see it is a good idea in some ways. Better racing, but... Restrict the classes too much, and anyone who already owns the 'wrong' sort of boat will not be interested in joining. So your only flow of new members will come from non-owners, or those who happen to have the 'right' boat already. Is the solution to that, to have more club-owned boats available? |
Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 24 Sep 14 at 1:14pm
| We have two other clubs very close to us, one only 2 miles away. I think we are the best 'racing' club. We would love the nearby club to leave their awkward reservoir and join us. They did share Barts with us and we get on well. However...they have a big youth section and a very strong social scene all of which they are very proud. The other nearby club is a spawning ground for Sea Cadets and they seem happy with their place in the local community. All three clubs have received substantial grants to update facilities, each to his own, but it does seem a bit daft! |
Posted By: pondlife1736
Date Posted: 24 Sep 14 at 1:27pm
I remember it well from the 70's....... If that happened at my club now though, I would leave in about 1 millisecond. Maybe the fleet guys would support it, but I doubt the club could afford the drop in fees. |
Posted By: solutiongirl
Date Posted: 24 Sep 14 at 1:40pm
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We got 34 whereas a "normal" Sunday seems to get somewhere in the high teams or low 20s. I say seems because I'm one of those dropping off the scene due to having plenty of other things to do. Of the 34, I'd say pretty much everyone has featured in the results already this year - we didn't have any "others". Turnout issues broadly relate to getting everyone to agree to come on the same day. Easy to do when you have a one-off event to focus attention, harder to do as a matter of course when so many people have other things going on in their lives as well.
If we distilled the boring week-in week-out Sunday races into something special less often to encourage everyone to be there at the same time, you're almost certain to clash with someone's wedding/christening/other hobby/bad weather. If you stick to the same thing every week, the happy-to-do-the-same-thing-every-week sailors will be there when us fair-weather types are in the mood/have the time to go for a race. If you could get a guarantee that changing things would make sure everyone turns up at the right time it might be worth doing but why spoil things for those that are enjoying the status quo in the hope of attracting folks for whom Sunday racing just isn't a priority? If Bart's Bash happens next year, I won't be organising it on behalf of my club. I volunteered on the basis that it would be a one-off event. But I'll probably make the effort to make sure I show up to go sailing that day, even if it's the only club race I do next year. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 24 Sep 14 at 2:05pm
If they didn't let you sail your boat at the local club, hell, start another. Even if it is on a ludicrously small piece of water. Anyone remember? |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 24 Sep 14 at 2:16pm
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Brent Cross Sailing Centre? ------------- |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 24 Sep 14 at 2:18pm
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Budworth SC seems to be doing fine with just fleet racing on Sundays and handicap Saturdays and Wednesdays (and even boards on Tuesdays!), even though the fleets seem to be of boats which would be scorned on this forum: http://budworthsc.org.uk/racing/our-fleets/" rel="nofollow - http://budworthsc.org.uk/racing/our-fleets/ ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 Sep 14 at 2:25pm
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And Snipes, they have them, how bizarre? Two clubs racing sailboards also accommodating Snipes, (we had an open meeting recently) what were the odds on that?
Good to see they're hosting Raceboards, a pity more clubs don't do that. Proper sailing.  ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 24 Sep 14 at 2:34pm
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And Wembley SC. No handicap at all there, by the looks: http://www.wembleysailingclub.co.uk/starting.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.wembleysailingclub.co.uk/starting.html I suspect these are part of a silent majority who don't post or even look here, but who turn out regularly and don't really care what they sail so long as there are others doing the same. You only have to look at nats turnouts to see that we boat nuts are the minority. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 24 Sep 14 at 3:01pm
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My brother sails at Budworth because they sail Fireflies, not the other way round. The fleets tend to rise and fall in popularity, so it can be that you lose fleet status entirely. Not sure how you get it back.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |