What would be the perfect club owned racing boat?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11637
Printed Date: 12 Jul 25 at 3:25am
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Topic: What would be the perfect club owned racing boat?
Posted By: davidyacht
Subject: What would be the perfect club owned racing boat?
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 10:37am
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I posted previously with regard to club owned racing boats, and the objection always ends up with "who is going to maintain them", however I am convinced that club sailing is staring down the abys. Many have successful racing for Grumpy 50+ sailors, people who grew up in the boom times of the 60's and 70's and who's kids have finished Uni. These clubs also have very successful Cadet fleets, largely run by the 40+ sailors who grew up in the boom times of the 70's and 80's. However there is a massive void in membership for the 18+ through to 40 age range, where the demands on cash and life don't include dinghy ownership or sailing club membership. In other sports people in this age range expect the hardware to be provided for them, and are prepared to pay for it ... look at gyms. I think there is a role for Club owned boats targeted at this age range. What would this boat be? Is it in the market already or should it be designed by this forum? My thoughts are that it should be
There are a number of boats out there that are almost right, but I struggle to find one that precisely fits the bill. If this was done on a comercial basis, a Club Bosun could be paid to check the boats over once a week. Most of the naysayers on the previous post identified club boats being pillaged for parts, surely this is because the reporting system did not work and parts were missing in the first place. You will note that I am suggesting a 2 person boat, because these encourage social participation, on and off the water. There are single handers already out there which would suit the single handed brief, i.e. Laser and Solo. Any thoughts out there
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Replies:
Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 10:53am
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Well of course I am biased here ... As many know by now Rondar are producing Icon from this Autumn. In the States they will be offering a 'ruggedised' version as well as the 'regular owner' version for institutions, and as a club purchase boat. The final specification is still being resolved but it might be pretty close to your description...... They are also making contruction changes to greatly reduce the production cost anyway ... maybe talk to Paul Young at Rondar and see if he will sell it here .... 'Institutional' does not necessarily have to mean 'boring compromise ...' Mike L. |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 10:59am
| I must admit that as I wrote this post, the ICON or Zim look like they fit the brief. The one at Salcombe Regatta looked cool if not a bit over canvased. My only hesitation would be that a ruggedised version would suggest different performance from the standard version. |
Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 11:02am
| I think the 2000 is ideal for a club boat, as it ticks training as well as racing boxes. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 11:02am
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I don't think a turn up and play boat can be a two hander. Makes it far more difficult to organise turning up and playing.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 11:18am
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We use a Comet Trio, which ticks some of the boxes, but certainly misses others by a mile. Most people who hire it are straight off level 2, and looking for experience. We also have a 2000, and this ticks boxes, too. I'd have said more than the Trio, but I think the Trio gets used more by the relative beginners. For pay and play, I'd say, naff or not, it needs to be rotomoulded, for bumps and for price. However, the ugliness of most of them is really an issue, as is the weight. I can't see how the boat can both be stable enough for a L2 graduate and for someone experienced looking for thrills and spills on the race course/blast around, and take the vast variation in weight the hiring bodies are going to have. Maybe the Icon hull lines can be redrawn just a little bit fuller, to give more waterline width and weight carrying, to allow for a redesign of the construction for the heavier rotomoulding, and to give her more initial stability for those new to sailing, while leaving the boat fun for the more experienced? Not suggesting this as a replacement for the Icon, though I suppose it might end up as competitor if it started selling to individuals as well as clubs and holiday companies. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 11:41am
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Lasers obviously... three rigs on each. Sorry Rodney & Dan & team RS Aero... but a few more years to go yet fellas. ------------- |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 11:48am
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For singlehanders I agree, KW, but there is no 2 hander to be found everywhere and with the variey of rig sizes. Our club has 2, and uses them for hire, for race coaching in the Juniors, for wed night racing etc. It is a shame that the Laser II/ Tasar concept didn't have one final iteration all those years ago to finally get it right and become THE doublehander of choice world wide. God, can you imaging how we would whinge about it on here, about how it was holding progress back and the like? Becoming the 3000 more recently wasn't quite right either. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 12:04pm
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2000 would be my choice for two-handers, there's plenty of scope for racing and training and travelling circus for any club fleet peeps who get very keen / are very keen. They are pretty rugged, the rig is fairly flexible, the deck layout accommodates the un-athletic fairly well and they're lighter than my past favourite; the Wayfarer, but in the same role. I don't think Laser for single-hander, my reasoning being that I've seen lots of damage over the years inflicted on the poor things due to the fact the mast needs to be lifted in and out, ditto Toppers. As private ownership, fine. As club or sailing school ownership I'm convinced this arrangement leads to more damage and repairs than a fixed mast, hoist-sail arrangement.* The rudder assembly and dagger board are also no-no's IMO. The self-bailer????. I would guess the Aero offers the best choice from a cost & flexibility point of view, though I also like the FRP Streaker and perhaps the D-Zero. If you launch off a beach into a decent size bit of water (i.e. the sea or a wide estuary) then my vote would also be to include a rugged (i.e. <£15k) catamaran. *e.g. ripped sails, eroded mast steps with sand and grit, damage to decks and other boats lifting in and out in high winds, sails being run over by trolleys (and cars!!) as they are left on the ground, sails dirty, battens broken/missing, parts not being there to assemble the rig the next morning/after a tea break, a gazillion broken / missing Topper mast-gate toggles, basically pretty much anything not shackled, bolted, welded, bonded or tied to a boat going missing at some point or being put away in 'the wrong place'.
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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 12:07pm
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2000 for two handers- they can also have cut down sails made by the local sailmakers. ------------- |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 12:11pm
my very limited experience of club boats in the US and Germany says this isn't true, the 2 handers get more use than the singles, you just can't have tweaky/twitchy 2-handers, Snipes are bl**dy popular for example
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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 12:30pm
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To what extent does the model of hire gear does actually work in a sport like sailing. Sure, it has a niche and some people have been pushing it as a cure for the sports ills, but is it really important? Steve Clark reckons that the club-owned model has created major problems for dinghy sailing in the USA, and such experience cannot be ignored. What do other similar sports do at a similar level? Canoeing is a smaller competitive sport and therefore doesn't necessarily offer a good example to follow (they should follow us IMHO). Bicycle clubs around here sometimes have loaner track bikes, but people normally buy their own kit. Karting? Isn't it the same as canoeing, in that it's a smaller sport than sailing and therefore may not be a good example? Surfing? Too different at competitive level, and clubs don't provide gear. SUPping? Dunno. Skiing? The gear is inherently much smaller and cheaper and in most countries inherently not something you do in your local town on a typical weekend, so again a hire-based model may not be applicable.
Secondly; OK I'm biased but polythelylene is not naf - it's what people buy and enjoy. Look at the joy and pride in ownership that people who own the Hobie-type fishing kayaks get from bimbling and use. These cheap, simple craft may well be the examplar of a future for sailing. The guys that the Americans claim to be the true creator of the current poly kayak say straight-out the modern plastic kayak boom relied on the fact that windsurfers (who originally used the same material) got too up themselves and went down the high-performance rathole, therefore creating room and demand for the boom in cheap plastic kayaks. One of the main guys in the plastic kayak boom used the exact same machinery as the original Windsurfer factory that had kickstarted that whole sport, which became redundant after windsurfers moved to lighter materials. It's not hard to see who did better out of that technological swap! The poly boats are, on the numbers that I can find, THE boom sector in sailing. Arguably they are not naf, but the future. Yes, some design innovation may be required to compensate for the material's problems but it's not impossible to do. FWIW there could still be a mono dinghy that can be a viable doublehander or singlehander in different modes. Contenders have been modified for two people and a Fireball has been modified for one, so the comparatively long and skinny route seems to offer a good avenue. If I can dream, I'd look at something a bit like a Contender in general shape; moderately long, fairly slender and low to allow for a comparatively light hull in PE. The rig would be small to make handling easy, reduce rig loads and the jib would be easily furled or dowsed for handling and to allow the boat to switch from doublehanded to singlehanded mode (or to one sailor/one passenger mode). I quite like wishbone booms for cruising. It could use the clever Garry Hoyt system that uses coloured sheets and a wind indicator to give cues for sheeting angles, and a bendy mast to depower easily in a breeze. Sail controls would be minimal. Handling ashore could be simplified by some sort of flip-down wheels, a la Hobie kayak, or slot-in wheels like some old Hi Fly windsurfers. Alternatively just use those wonderful big wheels that cat sailors use. Such a boat would turn off many "purists", but so did the Enterprise, Mirror, Solo, Hobie and even ocean racers etc when they came out and created most of the sport that we have today. Sure, the gear would be clunky, but you can just accept and ignore that and concentrate on the simplicity and the pure joy of the sport. PS - at the other extreme, one of the most amazing sailing scenes I've seen is in Hamburg. The main lake is about 6km around the perimeter and yet they have what seems to be a bizarrely strong scene with up to 50 active Dragons, and 50 Congers on one pier alone. The Conger is about 16' long and 8' wide and could give an Opti a fright on a good day. But one of the most active classes appears to be the ancient timber Hansa Jolle, like a 12 Sq M Sharpie but cruisier, which appear to be available for commercial hire and very popular. The Hamburg scene is a bit of an inspiration, and a lesson to show that it's very hard to predict what will work. |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 1:05pm
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The obvious choice would be the Firefly - can be sailed by older teenagers, ladies and even (as a singlehander) by large old men like me. There are now 3 rigs available - the Americans have added a longer mast, square top main and gnav to allow for larger crews. Standard rig and stormsails use the same rig. Boats can also be used for team racing. Wilson Trophy was sailed in 20knots plus, with gusts well over 3 and teams were still racing happily. As a weird alternative - build a fleet of Duck Punts. Dirt cheap and nothing to break. ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 1:08pm
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I guess the Poly thing is about perception (sorry not intended as a poly canoe reference). As a purist racer the material and the boats produced this way are an anathema, I guess the key to this is getting into the mind of the potential market. My interest is how to get a handle on the 20 - 40's, because when the current crop of 50 to 65 aged sailors pack up, I am not sure who will take our place.
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Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 1:30pm
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An 'institutional' club targetted Icon boat would not be a true Icon - and you may well want a metal mast with a smaller mainsail anyway and probably a thwart as standard. But for the duty proposed that is hardly the point... The boat carries weight exceptionally well (as intended) and is actually quite hard to capsize, with great handling and is amazingly simple .. as well as being relatively quick. Club boats can have a very tough life and need to be tough to survive - this is not always fully compatible with a typical racing boat model.... But a nuclear proofed Icon would still be a very good boat, and could offer in this form exceptional value. But rota-moulded ? Might be nice commercially and margin wise but what a heck of a compromise - and one a step far too far imo. I think we and Rondar would happily leave it to others... besides there are plenty of rota alternatives already ! 2k and Firefly exist and are both good boats - but a 'toughened' club type Icon is planned by Rondar for N.America in addition to the 'purist' version and I'm guessing they would be just as happy to supply it here as well .. or go for rota moulded boats. Mike L. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 1:45pm
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If you're targeting the 19 - 39 demographic, then it had better be exciting, those lads (two more potential ex boyfriends) I gave a brief outing in the club Vision I note haven't exactly been clamouring for another go, they're now pestering me to teach them to windsurf or kitesurf.
Now that could be my annoying daughters who seem to have inherited a piss taking gene from somebody, probably their mother, telling them it's gee! eh? why? but they also keep nodding at the V twin which is 'smouldering' in the drive and asking for a go on/in that when I fix it, go figure. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: balladsailor
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 1:46pm
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Club boat will always have issues, many have already been mentioned, but the issue of clubs nearing the abyss is something else! I would recommend taking a look at Bury Lake Young Mariners, Rickmansworth, Herts for a really interesting situation. It is a 'club' that is probably better described as a community sailing centre. Members don't need to own a boat, the club has about 100! Members can hire for about £5 per session. There are no paid staff, just a lot of willing volunteers. The centre grew out of a schools sailing centre that Herts CC wanted to close about 1980; the members took over the lease and boats and the rest is history. Boats available to members ... Optimist, Topper, Pico, Laser, Wayfarer, Bahia, Vago, RS200, Coypu, Laser Funboat. Please take a look at their website; it shows what could be done at any club.
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Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 2:12pm
+1 for BLYM many a good time had there in the 80's and 90's. Bury Lake itself is probably the 10,999th best place to go sailing in the UK, but that doesn't stop the center growing, capturing a new intake every year and really working brilliantly in it's community. I have long thought it was a model that should be used in coastal towns and near other lakes & reservoirs in the UK, but, and it's a big "BUT", that would all depend on the characters willing to do so in the other locations
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Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 2:34pm
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If you want bulletproof but don't want rotomoulded just get a fleet of bosuns. Got a spinnaker if you want it, a thwart I think and enough space for anyone ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 2:42pm
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The Americans have the Club 420. I think there is a clue in the name!
------------- Gordon |
Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 2:49pm
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The Americans have the Club 420. I think there is a clue in the name! You've got to see/experience one .... to know why. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 4:12pm
And is there *anything* about the US sailing scene we would do well to emulate here? |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 4:21pm
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PFDs... they have really very nice and big PFDs that would provide endless forum fodder for discussing the merits of 'swimming down and out' vs 'bobbing around'. ------------- |
Posted By: balladsailor
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 4:29pm
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[ [/QUOTE] +1 for BLYM many a good time had there in the 80's and 90's. Bury Lake itself is probably the 10,999th best place to go sailing in the UK, but that doesn't stop the center growing, capturing a new intake every year and really working brilliantly in it's community. I have long thought it was a model that should be used in coastal towns and near other lakes & reservoirs in the UK, but, and it's a big "BUT", that would all depend on the characters willing to do so in the other locations [/QUOTE]
Absolutely right, BLYM succeeds against all odds. any club's success and especially in managing club boats is dependant on having people who will make the effort for the club. Ps I was Principal at BLYM from 1985 to about 2000, still visit occasionally.
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 4:31pm
http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=159262 Would suggest that there is not a lot that is worth emulating ... though San Francisco remains my favourite sailing venue ever ... and Harken ... and North
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Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 4:47pm
in extremis, you could probably capapult launch one at another ship and have a good chance of sinking it too
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Posted By: kevg
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 5:13pm
Surely this is on the light side? Wouldn't 140-160kg be more the mark? (22-25 stone things) People are getting taller over the decades and along with a this comes more mass. Kevg |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 5:50pm
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I've not got taller but the mass has still increased ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 6:46pm
I would argue the Firefly is too small and it's larger sister, the Albacore would be a much better bet. The Albacore has a much greater weight range and importantly can take weight at the back (which is often where the older, less athletic person sits). It still caters for light crews as there is a teenage helm and crew who seemed to do very well in the Sailjuice series for the last two winters. More than that it seems to be used quite successfully in Canada as a club boat to introduce people to racing and to offer something to those with more experience. That was some of the rationale behind why I bought one having never sailed one before and I have been pleasantly surprised by how well it is living up to it's reputation as a versatile boat. |
Posted By: RichTea
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 7:20pm
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Membership prices is another one. Will the 19/20 year old be able to afford the cost of the membership, how about introducing a category for the age group you are aiming at. I had to stump up the full amount when i was 19 to 24 then a year later they introduced a 19-24 age category membership. P**sed off I was, as it was something like 50% off the Full fees. Another thing to organise is social and off site trips. Datchet organise club trip/holidays, so sailing with people you know in places you may not go to as a solo traveller. Take a visit on their site also for ideas. The sailing club I am linked to via the centre i work at do club trips across to the IOW, so depending on where you are, can provide options to things you could organise. Onto the question about boats, double handed i'd go for the 2000 too. ------------- RS200 |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 8:24pm
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We have three Vagos as club boats aimed exactly at this demographic and they work very well. Roto moulded yes, but this makes the hulls much easier to look after. They have two sets if mainsail - reef able Dacron for training, bigger Mylar for racing, plus two sizes of spinnaker. The trapeze is optional; you can easily manage without if you go for the Dacron option. We have recently acquired a very decent 2000 which has had loads of use since its arrival back in spring, mostly as a training boat and family cruiser. We also have an RS Vision which is just not popular at all. We recently took the decision to ditch the 3 lasers we had. This has significantly lessened the time and money spent on maintenance. They should hopefully be replaced by some Hartley 12.2s. Not glamourous or racey, but robust and very well put together. We continue to have healthy membership levels with a booming youth scene. Club boats make a massive contribution towards this.
------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 03 Sep 14 at 9:03pm
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As someone who has run/managed/maintained a fleet of boats for an RAF sailing centre I have to say that I love the L2K (RS) in the roles we use it for; Level 2, intro to racing, team racing and gen sailing/racing. As said, it's pretty robust, forgiving for beginners, responsive enough for T/R and an absolute hoot in a (big) blow. It's also great for family sailing with young family members.
The other boat we had that took virtually zero maint in 4+ years of ownership was the Dart 16. I had absolutely no repairs to do on this other than replace a small number of rear beam/tramp eyelets and a small tear on the tramp. Great boat. All our 2Ks and the Dart had reefing gear on the main which made them accessible to virtually all. Single handed fleet is purely lasers, with a choice of full and radial rigs. I did have a good look at the RS Quba and thought it was pretty good with the standard (smaller) rig, but hated it with the larger sport sail, which seemed to really upset the balance and feel of the boat. ------------- |