MX next in production
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11611
Printed Date: 12 Jul 25 at 6:25pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: MX next in production
Posted By: Rupert
Subject: MX next in production
Date Posted: 20 Aug 14 at 1:05pm
Quite surprised to see on a certain American sailing site that the MX Next has gone into production and is actually exporting boats to Europe.
Anyone know whether one has been sailed on the same piece of water as an RS100 or D1?
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Replies:
Posted By: fleaberto
Date Posted: 20 Aug 14 at 4:06pm
Looks like you're right on that one
http://www.mx-next.com/aug13_2014.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.mx-next.com/aug13_2014.html
"...As an early production incentive you can purchase an mxNext for $12,500 until May 1, 2014...."
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Lightning368 'All the Gear' (409), Lightning368 'Sprite' (101), Laser (big number) 'Yellow Jack', RS Vareo (432)'The Golden Rays'
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Posted By: haroosh
Date Posted: 22 Aug 14 at 8:59am
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So the early incentive price is almost £8k. I wonder what the standard price will end up being.
Alot of cash for something that to me is still quite unproven at least on these shores.
I think it does look really modern but I'm still curious how that whole wave peircing bow thing will work in chop. I wonder if you get a snorkel set included for the price?
It will be really interesting to see how it compares the the 100 and D1????
I am expecting it to be quicker than the 100 as it must be lighter due to carbon build but cant imagine it will be quicker than a D1. maybe somewhere inbetween the 2?
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Keith
RS100 GBR 116 (XLR8)
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 22 Aug 14 at 10:22am
If the waterline beam is as narrow as it looks, I'm afraid it might be quicker than both. Longer, wider overall and lighter than a 100. Assuming the prodn boat mirrors the prototype...
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 22 Aug 14 at 10:25am
Originally posted by Medway Maniac
If the waterline beam is as narrow as it looks, I'm afraid it might be quicker than both. |
bearing in mind an RS300 is also quicker than both, so what? The question is whether it will be a practical boat people want to sail, in the same way the MX-Ray - wasn't.
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 22 Aug 14 at 10:29am
Light weight, no bowsprit to worry about, stabilisers Merlin-style in the form of topside flare but low wetted area if you keep it upright. What's not to like apart from the hype?
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Posted By: haroosh
Date Posted: 23 Aug 14 at 8:42am
Originally posted by JimC
Originally posted by Medway Maniac
If the waterline beam is as narrow as it looks, I'm afraid it might be quicker than both. |
bearing in mind an RS300 is also quicker than both, so what? The question is whether it will be a practical boat people want to sail, in the same way the MX-Ray - wasn't. |
A d1 is quicker than a 300 on PY.
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Keith
RS100 GBR 116 (XLR8)
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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 23 Aug 14 at 8:57am
Originally posted by JimC
Originally posted by Medway Maniac
If the waterline beam is as narrow as it looks, I'm afraid it might be quicker than both. |
bearing in mind an RS300 is also quicker than both, so what? The question is whether it will be a practical boat people want to sail, in the same way the MX-Ray - wasn't. |
The 300 isn't quicker than either the D1 or RS 100 at top speed off wind in my experience, where it does leave (certainly the 100) a little shame faced is upwind and single sail reaching. I'd need to be convinced that it is noticeably faster than a D1 upwind too- those boats go very nicely to windward (considering all the pointless cargo they carry upfront)
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Posted By: timeintheboat
Date Posted: 23 Aug 14 at 3:46pm
How are you going to get back in it when it goes over? There does seem a lot of pointy boat in front of mast. Looks good though.
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Like some other things - sailing is more enjoyable when you do it with someone else
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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 24 Aug 14 at 12:50pm
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It looks like many thousand development-class sailors and designers over the years have been wrong with their ideas like fore-and-aft trim, useable waterline length, and hull shape. Vlad has come to a design that shows where people such as Bieker, Bethwaite, Morrison, Patterson, Murray, Claridge, Walsh, Clark, Roe, Thorpe etc have been going wrong all this time, despite the fact that he has not even bothered to learn of the existence of such slow craft as the Assymetric Canoe or learn what the Canoe designers have pieced together.
People like Einstein and Newton are happy to say that they rested on the knowledge of others. Others ignore the lessons of hundreds of years of cumulative experience. Personally, I'd assume that the Einstein/Newton/Morrison/Bethwaite/Bieker/Westell/etc approach is the right one.
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Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 24 Aug 14 at 1:09pm
Chris, I think that's a bit harsh. I'm no fan of the mx-Ray or the mx-next but I suspect that the underwater lines are probably not that unconventional. Where Vlad appears to have a whacky streak is a) his deck layout, b) the rigs for his boats and finally c) his OTT marketing.
As he has been living in the US for a while now the latter is possibly just a sign that he has now blended in fully with the locals!
Unfortunately for Vlad, his only chance with this boat was to get it out there before the 100 and Devoti D-One got a foothold and in that he has certainly failed, here in Europe. It could be a great boat but at the current price and with the competition it's got no chance.
The floppy rig on the prototypes seems to have gone and it does look ok. But I'd be spending my money elsewhere.
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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 24 Aug 14 at 2:09pm
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Funny how timing pans out. There's an office at a nearby marina for Hoot Marketing at a nearby marina in the same font and colour as the N American dinghy of that name. But no noticeable activity. Moment passed I guess. It looks a whole lot nicer than the MX Next.
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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 25 Aug 14 at 1:39am
Originally posted by craiggo
Chris, I think that's a bit harsh. I'm no fan of the mx-Ray or the mx-next but I suspect that the underwater lines are probably not that unconventional. Where Vlad appears to have a whacky streak is a) his deck layout, b) the rigs for his boats and finally c) his OTT marketing.
As he has been living in the US for a while now the latter is possibly just a sign that he has now blended in fully with the locals!
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I'm just turning up the throttle on my own rhetoric to match Vlad's! :-)
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Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 25 Aug 14 at 7:59am
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it'll never catch on here, if he can ween a few septics off sunfishes and L*sers then good luck to 'im but I'd guess a similar pattern will develop as before, sell a few, people find out how impractical they are vs the hype, sell no more, quietly fold, come back with new hype and more extreme design in a few years
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 25 Aug 14 at 9:49am
I'm still not reading any objective reasons not to like this boat.
I know I raised some earlier in the thread, but looking at it afresh I may have been too harsh in reaction to the marketing.
Looking at the speed potential (which still has to be proven in racing, of course) and likely ease of sailing - not capsizing - compared to other fast singlehanders, it may have something to offer.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 25 Aug 14 at 10:26am
Most of us can draw sketches that look whizzy, and this looks like a fine example of a teenagers rough book sketch (if schools still have those!)
But when evaluating a boat on paper one thing that's useful to do is to look at the designers' record, which in this case includes vast amounts of hype and not much delivery.
The hype is fully in line with the last iteration, and its hard to criticise people who assume the delivery will be in line too.
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 25 Aug 14 at 10:32am
That's still subjective supposition, Jim. Is the boat too short, too narrow, too heavy? Do you fear its lines are not fair and there'll be draggy separation somewhere?
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 25 Aug 14 at 12:57pm
I have so much sympathy for anyone who dares to attempt to wrestle a few grand from a bunch of tightwads who'd capsize in an attempt to recover 10p if it feel in the scuppers of their boat.
However, in this instance I'm skeptical purely based on the lack of video evidence, too many cutaways, I've been watching it over on Yankarchy, and as much as it looks the part, it doesn't appear to be convincing just yet, so the jury is still out on this keyboard.
But here's the key question, if it were tied up at the dock, would you or wouldn't you?
Me I'd be in it so fast my feet would barely touch the side...
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Posted By: Punky
Date Posted: 25 Aug 14 at 1:15pm
Originally posted by JimC
Most of us can draw sketches that look whizzy, and this looks like a fine example of a teenagers rough book sketch (if schools still have those!)
But when evaluating a boat on paper one thing that's useful to do is to look at the designers' record, which in this case includes vast amounts of hype and not much delivery.
The hype is fully in line with the last iteration, and its hard to criticise people who assume the delivery will be in line too. |
+1. It looks like sketch turned real. Personally I think it looks ghastly even if you ignore the hype and previous experience.
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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 25 Aug 14 at 1:33pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac
I'm still not reading any objective reasons not to like this boat.
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From the limited information available, I have concerns about the low freeboard, narrow overall beam, the use of wave piercing bows in small monos, and the fore-and-aft trim.
In comparison, we have a lot more righting moment (and crew height above waterline) on Canoes and still they power up very quickly. We also use more fore-and-aft movement than the MX Next has to offer at max beam.
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 25 Aug 14 at 1:49pm
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A 2m beam is hardly narrow by hiking singlehander standards; a bit above average, I'd have said.
Trim might indeed be difficult to get right, given the position of the wings; be interesting to see one in action for real.
Low freeboard - love it or hate it. Personally I love it - much rather be in the water than flying high above it on, say, an 800. UK winter excepted, maybe.
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Posted By: Koops
Date Posted: 25 Aug 14 at 11:24pm
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I've just watched the vids on the mx next website. Horrible creation! No shots of the boat tacking (v long with no rocker so difficult?), helms struggling to keep the boat balanced in a breeze (narrow waterline, big Sq top sail, wide wings.....RS300 on steroids!) and shots with the kite up don't indicate any stability improvement. Described as being very athletic to sail! Perhaps I'm getting old :-)
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Posted By: johnreekie1980
Date Posted: 26 Aug 14 at 9:32am
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It seems to me that turbo charging all these hiking single handers seems a bit pointless. If the MX Next is as hard to sail as it looks then it puts in in the ball park of a Musto Skiff and it clearly does not have the performance upwind or down as it is low on righting moment when compared to a trapeze boat. I don't think that there is a market for this at sea clubs in the UK as they would choose faster boats at this level of difficulty and it will not find favor on the gravel pits and lakes as it is too difficult to sail particularly in light and flukey winds.
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 26 Aug 14 at 12:44pm
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Agreed, shots of tacking/gybing would be interesting to see - we have no clue as to those beyond speculation and the comment of the "TV personality" that it tacks easily.
But I'm struggling to see any evidence of undue instability in the videos. All looks pretty standard singlehanded fare to me, and certainly easier than if you stuck people in an RS300 with little experience of it.
Yes, at sea with few gusts a trapeze is less of an issue, and on gravel pits MX Next might be a bit cumbersome, but on somewhere big but shifty like our river, Grafham, Draycote or Rutland it could be useful.
Edit: in answer to Grumph, yes I certainly would if one was at the club, whereas I wouldn't a foiling Moth or an MPS as I know I wouldn't be prepared to put the time in to master it, at least not in a shifty environment.
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Posted By: Roger
Date Posted: 26 Aug 14 at 2:42pm
Originally posted by Koops
I've just watched the vids on the mx next website. Horrible creation! No shots of the boat tacking
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I grant you there is not a lot.... but there is some so called "raw footage" of the boat tacking and gybing in that video collection
http://www.mx-next.com/videos.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.mx-next.com/videos.html
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 26 Aug 14 at 3:08pm
Originally posted by Roger
I grant you there is not a lot.... but there is some so called "raw footage" of the boat tacking and gybing in that video collection
http://www.mx-next.com/videos.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.mx-next.com/videos.html
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Considering it's a light boat in a small chop (at least in the second sequence), those tacking shots don't look at all bad.
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Posted By: Koops
Date Posted: 26 Aug 14 at 9:41pm
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I'd better look at the raw footage and prepare the humble pie ;-)
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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 27 Aug 14 at 1:56am
Originally posted by Medway Maniac
A 2m beam is hardly narrow by hiking singlehander standards; a bit above average, I'd have said.
Trim might indeed be difficult to get right, given the position of the wings; be interesting to see one in action for real.
Low freeboard - love it or hate it. Personally I love it - much rather be in the water than flying high above it on, say, an 800. UK winter excepted, maybe. |
You're right about the beam compared to the average hiker, of course, but I was comparing it to the really fast boats that the MX Next seems to be pitched at; the 700, Canoe, MPS etc. They all seem to offer significantly more RM, which as we all know is critical in high performance boats.
My concerns about the freeboard are centred on the drag caused by wings and decks splashing through the waves; as you say, low freeboard can also be something that makes sailing more fun.
I will admit to being turned off the boat by the amount of hype, like the stuff about the way the MX Ray "revolutionized they way small sport boats were designed" and "was a game-changer" that "all the established builders started to copy."
PS - in flat water and light/medium winds the MXNext could well be a very quick boat.
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 27 Aug 14 at 5:59am
Yes, it's just the awful hype that raises expectations of extreme speed.
But as I implied earlier, if you're looking for a singlehander that is fun and well sub-1000 PY, yet is easy to sail without dedicated practice, the Next might turn out to be just that. Easy to pull up the beach too.
Be interesting to see how it shapes up in reality.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 27 Aug 14 at 8:00am
I'm sure the original design parameters were for something that broke the mould in terms of how small boats sailed, as a development step for how ocean racers were going to be revolutionized, too. From the film I've seen, that hasn't happened - I think physics has got in the way. Can't say I expected otherwise, along with all the other cynics on here...
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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