Club boats
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11586
Printed Date: 13 Jul 25 at 3:12pm Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Club boats
Posted By: ChrisI
Subject: Club boats
Date Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 3:19pm
Just interested in......how do club boats at your club work?
Is it along the lines of:
1. old boats that get left/donated by ex-members that are still sailable get claimed by the club and can then be used by anyone.
2. appropriate trainer boats get purchased new for RYA courses with the aid of grants/club funds etc and can then be used at other times.
3. if a class is popular enough or if a club has just a few 'recognised' classes (e.g. Lasers) some more are bought new to encourage those not wanting to commit, before maybe then getting their own.
4. any other reasons?
In particular, for each of the above, are any charges made for each outing, do people sometimes buy their own sails when using a club boat, and how does your club manage the maintenance - volunteers, paid helpers, or it doesn't happen?
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Replies:
Posted By: NickM
Date Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 3:30pm
Our old "Club" Solo belongs in fact to the Club Solo fleet who were given it some time ago. It is maintained by some members of the fleet who give generously of their time. Others donate old covers etc. We charge £5 for anybody who wants to try out a Solo and we have an annual dinner raffle to raise more money for the running costs - often repairs to minor damage caused when being sailed by inexperienced borrowers!
There are also some Club Wayfarers used for RYA adult training, but I'm not sure how they are run.
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Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 3:44pm
Hi
At Lee we currently have 18 club boats comprising
8 Toppers
4 feva
2 laser 1 with all rig options
2 2000 old yellow training version
1 RS vision
1 RS tERA
Plus kayaks which have proved useful for training/ coaching.
The Toppers and Lasers were all 15/ 20 years old and one of my missions when I became Rear Commodore was to upgrade the training boats so we have managed from club funds and fund raising to replace 4 toppers for better centre main ones( and changed the balance) upgraded 2 laers this year. We also got a sport England grant to buy 3 Fevas which help to change the balance of training as the RYA ignore those who dont want to helm and just crew.
By changing the boats we have reduced maintenance which is a nightmare with very old tired boats.
Still to do 4 Toppers, 2000, Rs Vision.
Somebody else's job I hand over in October after 3 years.
Gordon
------------- Gordon
Lossc
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Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 4:01pm
We have 4 club lasers that were bought secondhand from a sailing school and about 6 toppers and 6 Oppies which we have picked up over the years from ex members etc. We also have my old Supergrad which came to the club in lieu of fees (not me the bloke I sold it to) a Wayfarer ex local school and a GP left at the club by a member who won it in a competition. Oh, and a nice Ent that we bought for Southport 24. These boats get used for training and new boatless members. Not all at the same time however...we need more Toppers!
They are maintained by our 'bosuns' who are two brothers. This is where the problem comes. Trainees and members break boats and the bosuns mend them. That is fine but we have members, one in particular who only use club boats. Said member turns up, takes a Laser, breaks the tiller extension, sails in and nicks an extension of another club boat and sails off again. He is a nice man but all he pays is his membership. No boat fee (to the the Canals and Rivers Trust) no berthing fee and no insurance. The club maintains the boat he sails, we all maintain our own boats.
We are a very happy club and wish to keep it that way but we have had to point out to this gentleman that he taketh the piss.
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Posted By: Happilyover40
Date Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 4:52pm
We have an assortment of club boats (20 approx) from plastic oppies to year old wayfarers. They are used and usually purchased by the training center through grants etc and are used on courses.
Club members can hire them at prices ranging from £5 to £15 per day but thi si susually waved if teh boat is going to be raced. They are maintained by the bosun but the main problem is if something is broken it is not recorded so that when someone else goes to use it bits are missing :(
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 6:08pm
We have a couple of Visions and a couple of Fevas, purchased through grant money we had a 420 sold to us wether we wanted it or not by a member, but at the moment after a busy first half of the season they are in varying states of disarray.
We need a couple of brothers called Bosun to keep an eye on them, members borrow them, break them and do nothing, it's a bloody nuisance.
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website
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Posted By: ChrisI
Date Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 8:47pm
Am not surprised to hear that maintenance is the main issue - we are finding it a nightmare, esp with the older boats. Nothing puts off new enthusiastic members more than getting a club boat out and finding a few bits missing.
But in Hammersmith, with such little storage space, the club is looking quite seriously at going down a 'mostly club boats' route - which is actually the model that the rowing club that we share premises with uses i.e. all pairs, fours and eights are club boats with only some single sculls being personally owned. So we need to find an answer to the maintenance problem.
We charge £10 per person for club boat usage, whether single or double handers, which users seem to think is very fair for central London, and are soon to get some more Lasers, all with dual rigs, and some with triple.
I wonder whether any of the big retailers/manufacturers would run a mobile workshop that could be booked on a daily rate to help with service/maintainance....
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Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 10:31pm
Originally posted by iGRF
....members borrow them, break them and do nothing, it's a bloody nuisance. |
This is my experience. Club boats start off as a good idea but slowly descend into a state of disrepair and neglect never to be used again.
Better to get people involved through crewing and personal loans.
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Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 10:46pm
We seem to have more issues with club Lasers than any other boat. The problem is down to the rig swapping which seems to cause bits to go missing all the time. In comparison our club solos seems to stay usable all the time. It might be something to do with the typical age of the boat hirer as well.....
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 11:24pm
We had a couple of Visions, but they were such pigs that even the novices treated them with disdain. Now flogged off and replaced by a brand new Hartley Wayfarer and a 2000 (the latter on account of our 2k fleet) bought with a grant. The Wayfarer is an excellent training boat, and was good value, while smaller/lighter people like the manageability of the 2k.
We also have a collection of Toppers and Lasers in somewhat less than good racing condition, and which seem to require regular attention. Whether replacement by new would lessen the maintenance, I don't know. Their sails not being easily droppable, they tend to be left flapping frustratingly often, so new ones would soon be trashed, unfortunately.
There is also a pair of Feva XLs which seem to be holding up pretty well (this is the only rotomould that I actually like), and a pair of Teras for the littlies. All bought with grants.
We charge £20 for the Wayfarer and 2k, and £10 per day for the rest.
Maintenance is by a volunteer. I suggested that people should have to qualify to hire by passing at least a rigging test, but this was not taken up. It might have saved on some misuse/losses.
At my old club, people had to pass a combined rigging and sailing test before going on the list of hirers, and each club boat had a bosun who raced it on a regular basis (and repaired it on an equally regular basis). It was a good system while it lasted (bosuns moved on, etc).
I like the OP's idea of people using their own sails!
------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 07 Aug 14 at 10:04am
I have a feeling that the club owned boats will play a bigger part in the future, particularly for holding onto the 18 - 40 age group where members are increasingly financially and time challenged, let alone having a less committed approach to any one sport.
I wonder if any clubs have gone for a full on approach to buying decent two man racing boats, such as RS200's or RS400's at a level that might encourage one design participation.
Whilst polyethylene boats have there place in training, I am not sure that they can be taken very serously for racing.
People turn up to Sports Clubs expecting a certain amount of equipment to be supplied, I can't see why this might be different for racing dinghies.
Any experience or thoughts on this?
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Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 07 Aug 14 at 10:32am
I think dinghies are very prone to abuse, at least in our experience. Every week I see club Toppers run aground board down or Lasers flapping away until the battens fly out. People do not look after what does not belong to them selves. Small clubs rely on volunteers for maintenance.
Our club has only one paid employee.....me. I clean the clubhouse and toilets once a week. For this I am paid a pittance but because I am paid, I do it. Volunteers will often have a casual attitude to responsibility.
Club boats and paid Bosuns could be the answer?
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 07 Aug 14 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by iiitick
Club boats and paid Bosuns could be the answer? |
With a good committee to administer them, quite possibly, but I'd worry it could go sour if the committee changed and became lazy and uninterested.
------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class
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Posted By: GybeFunny
Date Posted: 07 Aug 14 at 12:07pm
Littleton SC used to have some good RS200s they hired out on a series by series basis (hirers even took these boats to the nationals and opens), this was about 10 years ago, no idea if they still do it.
We have club boats at my club owned by the different fleets, they are rarely used. I am very glad my fleet dont have one as it would be a pain to maintain.
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 11 Aug 14 at 9:21am
At Hunts we have a load of Toppers and Optimists. Some of the Optimists have been 'adopted' by various parents which helps with the maintenance issues.
We did have some Lasers but these were so badly abused that the club is in the process of selling them (which is a shame IMO but I can understand why).
We also have some Picos, 3 Vagos, a Vision (which is currently for sale) and a L2K. So a nice mix and a little bit of something for most people.
We do have the issue of maintenance with people not reporting things that get broken or are damaged which is frustrating as 99% of the time the broken item is minor and a very easy (and cheap) fix but not one you want to be doing immediately before you run a training course.
------------- Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
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Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 11 Aug 14 at 1:29pm
I think the key to getting maintenance issues reported is to make it clear what the club would consider fair wear-and-tear and what is damage (ie what the hirer is responsible for) and not making the hirer feel like a naughty child when they report something needs fixing.
My club has a wide variety of boats for hire but I'll do about everything in my power to not need to hire one again. Being a bit more professional about things like having a price list and proper T&Cs would really help.
I like the idea people adopting boats, if they are adopted by particular fleets then they have some interest in them being well maintained so the can use them as a tool to boost their fleet
------------- Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36
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Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 11 Aug 14 at 3:43pm
What I have noticed at Hunts is that as the boats themselves have been improved, so the amount of damage caused has lessened. People seem to have more respect for a better equipped and looked after boat. I agree it's a shame to ditch the lasers, but they were running at a loss, not least because people would actually nick he parts or swap them for something they had damaged on their own boats.
The adoption scheme is working well with the optimists, but we also have a few plastic oppies which take the brunt of the for hire use.
------------- the same, but different...
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Posted By: ChrisI
Date Posted: 13 Aug 14 at 3:56pm
I'm convinced too that club boats will play a bigger role in future (.... we get told that the world is heading towards a 'sharing' economy with the likes of AirBnB and Uber etc etc) but maintenance is clearly the key from all the comments posted, although not sure what the solution is.
I think Carsington SC at one stage, very creatively, rented out Laser 2ks in 3 month periods, which almost solved the problem I believe - with people knowing that if they bust something it would be like that next time they used the boat.
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Posted By: OultonBen
Date Posted: 13 Aug 14 at 5:02pm
Originally posted by 2547
Originally posted by iGRF
....members borrow them, break them and do nothing, it's a bloody nuisance. |
This is my experience. Club boats start off as a good idea but slowly descend into a state of disrepair and neglect never to be used again. Better to get people involved through crewing and personal loans. |
Try this for "Personal Loan":- Core pot of cash ~£6k; 50% Personal Loans, interest-free are available; repayable over 2-years.
If £6k of loans is repaid over 2-year, the returning income is £3k annually
Try this simplified example: "P, Q, R & S" buy new-ish lasers @ ~£3k each, so apply for interest free loans of ~£1.5k each and use-up the pot; [total repayment rate is £6k/24 = £250 pcm, or averaged £62.50 each per month]. Seeing 2 brand new & 2 very smart Lasers sailing around "T" becomes interested, so after half-a-season the empty pot has now risen to £1.5k and "T" can look at this to support his new boat. How many Clubs are seeing a turn-around of roughly 1 almost-new Laser every 6-months, or equivalent? The £6k initially put up, costs the Club, perhaps £1 per day, or the equivalent of a small round of drinks every week-end ...... to see this level of enhanced sailing activity.
Loans could be used for say, upgrading from aluminium to Carbon rigs, or buying a High-Tech sail ..... etc.
One sailing Association which I still belong to, saw such merit in this type of scheme, that they increased the basic 'pot' four-fold, yes £24k ! That was how I bought my first new Fireball in 1982 ! This was done from reserves but could also be done through appeal to members, and then say, matched industrial or other funding.
------------- No-one can squeeze past ..... when you're as "Chunky" as myself !
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 13 Aug 14 at 5:51pm
But you could use the Sport England £ 10K grants, maybe match funded by Members loans, or Gift Aided gifts if you are a CASC. Strikes me that the key issue might be in having a Semi Retired bosun who checks the boats over once a week.
Maybe there is room for yet another class specifically targeted at this market, not built in polyethylene, but kitted out with decent, robust gear, but with simple systems. Much though it saddens me the original Laser 1 pretty much hit this brief, but I am not sure about a 2 hander.
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Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 13 Aug 14 at 5:56pm
Hummm...you need cast iron rudders, tillers and extensions, steel sails and a big iron skid plate underneath.
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Posted By: OultonBen
Date Posted: 13 Aug 14 at 7:15pm
Originally posted by davidyacht
But you could use the Sport England £ 10K grants, |
NO you couldn't .... Not for personal loans to buy your own kit ! What was advocated was "Loans" for people to buy their own stuff .... and look after it, like they don't look after institutional kit.
------------- No-one can squeeze past ..... when you're as "Chunky" as myself !
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Posted By: OultonBen
Date Posted: 13 Aug 14 at 7:18pm
Originally posted by iiitick
Hummm...you need cast iron rudders, tillers and extensions, steel sails and a big iron skid plate underneath. |
There were once some Aluminium Flying-15s built; these of course have steel keels, so almost satisfy your 'spec'  , bottom up to the sheerline anyway.
------------- No-one can squeeze past ..... when you're as "Chunky" as myself !
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Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 14 Aug 14 at 7:52am
Your description of a club boat with cast iron plate etc sounds like a bosun.
Sorry but the boat needs to be something people want to sail which will depend on what you have at the club and has to be within peoples skill level.
------------- Gordon
Lossc
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