Is there a better way of setting an initial PY?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11572
Printed Date: 12 Jul 25 at 11:24pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Is there a better way of setting an initial PY?
Posted By: Bellingforth
Subject: Is there a better way of setting an initial PY?
Date Posted: 28 Jul 14 at 11:11pm
Now this is going to be a difficult ask - for the purposes of this thread, can we assume the RYA's PY system works for established classes?  About a year ago I had a chat with a chap at the RYA about how the Icon could get an initial PY. The answer was that it would only be via returns from RYA clubs, and this data would be fed into the RYA's system. If they then deemed they had enough data then they would issue an experimental number. The problem with this, is that the PY-o-matic takes no note of skill factor and the result is therefore assumed to represent the average sailor. Unless specifically aimed at being a 'beginner' boat, new classes are more likely to attract 'better' sailors. This results in the EN being set low. In due course, with enough boats being raced, the number would then rise, but until then it potentially could put off people taking up the class. Especially as their only option will be handicap racing. Icon currently has this problem - it now welcomes Aero & D-Zero to the club. Hence the thread title. A very initial starting point could be derived mathematically along the lines of Peaky's suggestion - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11438&KW=fuller+number&title=the-fuller-number" rel="nofollow - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11438&KW=fuller+number&title=the-fuller-number However, as that thread proved, people will always want some 'hard facts' to back up the theory. The Top Gear Power Laps times produces a 'rough & ready' means of ranking sports cars. It's always the same circuit and supposedly the same driver, so the main variable is the track condition. Would it be possible to do something similar with boats? Or is there a better way..........?? Mike B. ------------- Icon 04 Blaze 840 "Ate For Tea" |
Replies:
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Jul 14 at 11:19pm
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Agree there should be a better way. Trouble is, the wind changes, so a top gear lap would produce different results even with the same sailor. Racing the boat against similar boats, and swapping helms around, would give a better idea, I guess.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 28 Jul 14 at 11:23pm
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There is a way, as many will have already identified, of running a "trials" series, with a panel of known sailors with quantified skills/performance levels racing a new design against a set of PY-stable boats.
In theory this is great, but you'd still need a lot of races, held on inland ponds, inland large lakes, inland big reservoirs, coastal estuaries, coastal chop, coastal rollers, in every combination of wind speeds. Time and costs are the problem. The simple solution is to persuade people to buy the boat that they enjoy sailing, not necessarily the one that they'll think will have them winning races, and accept that the numbers will be right in about 2 years. Sure, it's nice to win, but regardless of position gained I've come off the water with a grin on my face every time I sail the D-One.... therefore I have won ------------- |
Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 8:12am
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How true Bootscooter, it is the enjoyment that counts. Personally I cant think of an effective better way. However we have a lady at our club who went out and bought an RS Quba. This thing sails off 1220 which is ludicrous. Luckily she sails rarely and badly but in one race last week she beat me and a girl lightning sailor (who is much better than me) on PY. The Quba owner is probably going to give up sailing and sell her boat, fine, but to who! Any good sailor would thrash us all regularly on that PY. I could say, well it will all sort it's self out in a couple of years but will it? Icon returns will come in thick and fast but how many Quba returns will make their way back from Greece or Sham el Shiek? By the way, I met your father and his wife recently. We had a jolly weekend. |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 9:14am
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I think the EN works fine... well done to the RYA for having the gumption to put something out there on such little data. Poor sods, damned if the do anything, damned if they don't..... The question I would like to ask is when setting the EN, should the RYA be: 1) generous to the new design to help stimulate industry and innovation 2) stingy to help protect established classes 3) impartial and clinical in its assessments ------------- |
Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 9:24am
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It is the 'initial phase' that is the core of the 'new class' problem. Locally we were encouraged by the then Commodore of the local club to get 'other' crews into the Icons in order to get a better 'spread' of results. Quite a few capable but occasional crews did race the boats in the year that followed - so far so good you might think. The next thing we heard informally was that these additonal results cound not really be regarded as truly 'representative' because these crews would 'obviously' need an extended period of time 'to get up to speed' .... or were 'the wrong' figures now the issue ? Sailjuice results imo are a better starting point - most classes are represented by decent top quartile crews in well sorted boats - especially if you give additonal weight to the top half of the results. For new classes this must point to a better method of establishing a first practical EN if that is what you want to call it - better that is than crude club results that really needto be in sample sizes of many thousands of individual results to get any real smoothing into play. I'm therfore proposing using Sailjuice results to provide an initial EN ... and not even initial EN numbers being factored by Sailjuice results to produce a GL number as now. Both approaches can then compliment each other rather than appearing to be rival approaches. No new class should object to being excluded from the chocolates in the first year if that is what it takes anyway while this process runs its course. Lets have a more certain process please - and stop pretending that a number derived from say <30 races for one class at only a couple of clubs is in some way as 'good' as one involving many thousands of results from another class spread all over the country... Nobody should ever buy a new boat becauseof the possibility of a 'bandit' handicap ... equally nobody should be put off buying into a new class because the 'given' handicap (or the one you may surely end up with initially !) frightens off the 'middle' range of club sailors from looking any further. Most do not necessarily expect to win, but they would like a sporting chance of finishing some way up from the back ! Not-expecting-change-any-time-soon in the real world however. Mike L. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 9:42am
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Can we cut this 'sail it because we love it crap' not many of us here do that if we're honest, we like to race, the boat is merely a tool to that end.
Ideally some of us would love the perfect world of everybody racing the same craft, however those of us challenged with 'not normal' physical characteristics can't do that, so we want to buy and race something that suits those characteristics. Now as has been demonstrated here already, it is not beyond the wit of man to come up with a formula that at the very least takes the bungling and guesswork out of the equation for starters. What local gerrymandering then goes on after can still continue, but at the very least, there needs to be something based in fact, not inland fiction. Or 'they' can of course go on as per, looking either idiotic, corrupt, small minded, protectionist, insert your own opinion, either way, not much reward for folk who probably are well meaning hardworking and honest. It's the system that's wrong, change it - simples. Edit, I've no idea why Mike is so enamoured with the Sailjuice series, to my mind they are part of the problem, ok so they've been kind to the Blaze, not quite sure why, but either way if anything they are tainted even more by 'commercial' interest so should be ignored because of the inland water weighting. To get a true average, equal results need taking from an even number of water samples and the random nature of the data removed if the feeling is that a system based on data is the only way. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 10:09am
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Why do you think that some set formula will do the trick? I wonder what figures the little Byte would come up with? Short, narrow and not much sail area, Lightning, short, wider, more sail. Let no one tell me that a Lightning is faster in anything above a light wind than a Byte. We have arguably...no not arguably....the two best Byte sailors in the country at our club and they regularly beat Supernova's on the water in a blow. No mathematical formula can compensate for this but the present PY system reflects it. Byte C2 1140, Lightning 368 1160......seems about right to me. I have advised Mr Fuller to try a Byte as I believe he is of reduced stature. It could be the machine for him. Personally I am too old, slow and stupid for one. Mr Fuller on the other hand seems to be none of these things........
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 10:51am
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One of those Byte C 2s was doing quite well over at Downs recently is that anyone you know?
As to this system, we're talking about new unknowns, rather than boats with plenty of data. Having said that, I fail to understand why even with years of data, the boats are still moving around, simply because there is clearly an imbalance in data source. One day I'll get a go in one tick but I'm not keen on boats that are shorter than the boards I used to sail, so 380-390 is the minimum length I like to suit my tacking angles. Inbuilt senses like these are difficult to shift once you're over a certain age. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 11:10am
That is a gross assumption ... why do you think this to be the case ...? I think the type / style of the boat may have an impact. E.G. a D-One may attract better than average and perhaps the Aero less so ... I'd say better sailors typically seek out tough competition in existing classes.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 11:15am
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The boats are moving around a lot because the system is no longer very old. With the change in the way the data is input, the whole system is only 3 or 4 years old, and so a new balance is still being found. If after another few years, the numbers are still jumping, it would suggest to me that more than 3 years worth of figures should be used. In the old days, there would be no change for a decade even for boats where the handicap was fairly obviously wrong, simply because not enough clubs were making decent returns. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 11:15am
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It's absolute nonsense- the better sailors are paid to jockey sails in exiwting classes, which in turn attracts better competition from top tier genuine amatuers. ------------- |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 11:28am
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Don't recall many top yotters jumping into a Topax when it was launched..... The D-Zero seems to be taken up by club level guys who fancy something new and a little different (from the people I have spoken to so far). ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 11:52am
OK, we sail and race because we love it - if you prefer. However, if I want to race, because that's what I enjoy, then I do it in a class fleet. If I'm sailing in a handicap fleet then I'm doing it largely because I enjoy the sailing. Yes, I'd rather do that in a mixed fleet and have a sort of race rather than on my own, and for that reason I think PYs are great, but I have no illusions that however much work is put into them by serious and good hearted people that they are always going to remain a very poor second to class racing. If you are really just sailing because you love to race then buy a Laser, or whatever is plentiful at the clubs near you and get on with it!
------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 12:23pm
| Its funny you know, I was originally very much in favour of the whole icon concept, but the continual whinging, whining, toy throwing and general stench of sour grapes is quite putting me off the boat to the extent that I'll have to think carefully about making any contribution to any discussion we might have about it. But I do wonder if potential boat buyers are similarily put off. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 12:24pm
OK let's say I bought a Laser, then like our current Laser series leader, maybe I'd even win the series, he and I are of similar standard, I'm a bit better in light he in a breeze and you could almost set your clock by the result, I know this, have been doing it for years sailing box rule boards, it's is no fun. What is fun is being able to sail across the spectrum and with someone else, so that immediately narrows the field to single trap classes of which there are very few modern shapes that fit the bill and even fewer that have enough numbers sailing them. But it is also a fact that some boats are physically faster than others and at times all the chatter about numbers and data, this fact seems to be almost secondary and fundamentally it was what the original yardstick system was set up to cope with. I didn't realise this was only three years old, so they have screwed up a perfectly good system and replaced it with something not fit for purpose is that what we're saying? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 12:26pm
The light dawns. 
Tell me Jim , you have something to do with this committee, who's wrong here then? The people who own the boat purchased in good faith, the potential new owners who'd like to own and race it, or the PYAG committee who are spoiling their fun and wondering why everyone is moaning? The decent thing would be to have the courage to admit an error, put it straight and move on. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 12:37pm
I would flip this round and say they took a system that was not really fit for purpose (primarily through lack of data provided on returns) and have improved it no end but opening up the amount of data they use rather than relying on a simple return. Averaging over 3 years may or may not work as the yearly wind trends do vary. At the end of the day though is it handicap racing. in some conditions class A will shine, in some conditions class B will shine. I most conditions class C will be a good all rounder but unlikely to actually place well. That is the nature of the beast! the changes over the last few years, seeing the Laser get a little slower and other classes get significantly faster means it does now stand a chance (at Hunts certainly) of getting amongst the chocolates when one of the better helms is holding the waggly stick. As for setting an initial PY there will always be a certain element of finger in the air. What I suggested at Hunts is that they base it around the 8.1 handicap (which in my view is artificially fast as the rig only gets used in light to moderate winds before people change back to a standard rig as it is faster over the water) as the 8.1 is a similar boat with a similar sail area. Time will tell what the spreadsheet says. From the limited racing I have done so far I am finishing about where I expect to finish once the numbers are crunched. The acid test will be when I race against my arch nemesis in his 8.1 and we see where we end up (we usually are not separated by much). ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 12:42pm
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Exactly, taken something that was average and averagely wrong for everyone and making it inland centric so entirely unfit for purpose for coastal venues where Lasers have won series again and again on 1078.
You forget, it's the only thing I've experienced in the ten years I've now been doing this and now it is much much much worse than it has ever been and with no bloody basis in logic. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 12:48pm
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I agree that splitting the data between coastal and inland venues might help with the skewing of some PYs. The problem is that tidal venues vary so much so you will almost need a different PY for each one because of local tide effects, local wave effects etc.. (that and the data set is not that large anyway). Out of interest do you lot put their results into the PYS system Grumpf? That may give you an indication on if any of your numbers are wildly out (subject to the confidence factor of course). ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 1:12pm
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Not to my knowledge, I don't think anyone even knows how.
Maybe I should use my rank and insist, but in the real world, nobody cares, it's a changing room joke and everyone knows it's bent. They do down the lake, it's something to do with inland sailing, they take these things far more seriously and their facilities make it easier, after the race there is so much hauling and dragging off the beach and general clearing up by the time it's done, it's beer o-clock, who wants to then sit at a computer and post results to the RYA, who, lets face it are, shall we say not exactly regarded with any respect, by many in our club. Which brings me back to the point I'm trying to make about winning hearts and minds, this isn't exactly cutting it is it? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 1:24pm
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If you won't contribute to the system, how the f**k can you expect to have any say in how it works? I took little notice of your ill educated views of the yardstick system before. Now I know you cannot even be bothered to make sure your club's returns are part of it, I shall ignore them completely. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 1:39pm
as one of the core online resources for the boat, you do wonder don't you? ------------- |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 1:55pm
+1 ... it is not the system at fault but the imbeciles that "use" it...
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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 1:55pm
added to which, ranting about ENs for new boats is also doing them no favours.... surely one of the conditions of a demo should be that the results are used and uploaded into PYS? A demo is a quid pro quo arrangement.... more results + expediency in posting = fairer sailing for all. Something the commercial parties are very keen to promote (or certainly my experience of them with RS, Suntouched and the feedback from Mike (Cirrus) here) ------------- |
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 3:40pm
I'm getting a little confused here. You say you are only sailing because you want to race, and not because you want to sail, and yet when faced with the realities of racing (regardless of boat type) - that some people will always tend to win in some conditions (or possibly even all), and others may do well in others - you complain that is too predictable. So perhaps what you really want is something that introduces a bit of randomness in the results? In which case surely handicap racing, with all it inevitable imperfections should be just up your street! ------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 3:46pm
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or alternatively, if racing is the be all and end all, maybe a club where a former bottom rung RS100 helm wouldn't ever conceivably be winning a club race, irrespective of any boat and/or handicap, might be just up his street ;-)
------------- |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 8:39pm
And then ypou moan that the PYs are skewed towards lake sailing when you cannot be bothered to contribute to the data set yet expect it to be right. Sorry Grumpf but that is inexcusable and as bad as someone who does note vote then complains bitterly about the politicians. The system will only work if as many clubs as possible contribute data. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 9:06pm
Well we had that already and I was as happy with the way it was, as anyone could be expected to, but I'm not happy (as you can tell) with the way things are now and really want no part in it. Personally I race for position over the water, always have done always will, and don't give a toss for what bollox gets created by spreadsheet. However I'm introducing new people to sailing and they do care and are confounded by it all and my annoyance is more on their behalf than my own, plus, like it or not, I'm one of you now and hate being damned by association as being part of something stupid/corrupt/petty minded/protectionist (pick one) and just not cool, anyone who thinks this thing is fine is frankly an idiot imv. And here's a thought, has anyone even questioned the algorithms that are spitting out this crap? So the short answer, produce a logical fact based measurement system I'd happily participate, but this charade, not a chance, complete waste of time, it's f**ked. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 9:09pm
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If you are introducing them, why not introduce them sans PY.... Run whst you brung... First over the water wins. ------------- |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 9:18pm
I do, did, but there are always others (usually the ones who sail the bandit boats) that like to fiddle with results and tell it different to the way it was on the water.  ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 10:52pm
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simples.... stop recording the times. No ET, no phone home for the CT. ------------- |
Posted By: Bellingforth
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 11:30pm
I've been thinking about posting this thread for several months but had held off because I thought there was more than enough 'discussion' on the Icon's EN. I eventually did having read a comment on the D-Zero thread about its sailjuice number - hence it being a relevant discussion for other new classes. Personally I enjoy sailing the Icon and will continue to do so irrespective of what it's PY ends up being. We were looking for a 2-hander but nothing seemed to tick all our particular boxes. We were fortunate to be at the same club that Icon was developed, and 'head of purchasing' did quite a lot of crewing for Mike L when Andy was farming. The best way to stop the 'whinging' is to get more data. I was quite surprised that the RYA deemed there was enough to produce the EN this year. With so few 'normal' returns contributing, it would be good if it could be augmented with additional analysis - such as that put forward by Marke about the Starcross Icon on the 'Tasar v Icon' thread. Hence the question about better ways to set the initial PY. It's surely in everyone's interest that any new boat can be given a realistic handicap asap with evidence to back it up. The holy grail is how to produce this evidence??? In the case of the Icon, if it really is 969 then great! I've got a lot to learn, and it would surely mean to be able to sail such a 'simple' boat to that level would have to be down to pure sailing skill rather than having the latest gismo or being able to hoist / drop a kite quickly? Mike B. ------------- Icon 04 Blaze 840 "Ate For Tea" |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 30 Jul 14 at 7:42pm
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If it is 969 then that makes it faster than a 470s, RS500s, Contenders, Fireballs, I'm looking forward to someone actually demonstrating that.
It's bollox, they're wrong and using data from hotshots proves nothing, good hot shots could sail a shed and give it a fast handicap. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 30 Jul 14 at 8:45pm
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Well as I said last year about the Alto, Sailfest is a great opportunity to mix it up and see how these boats perform in the real world.
The Altos are having their Nationals there this year and I'm hoping there'll be a decent turnout of D-Ones. I'm sure I read that the D-Zeros will be demo'd there, so hopefully some Aeros and Icons will make the trip giving all of us a chance to see them in action. I better mention that the Bytes will be there in numbers also, otherwise a certain poster will be on my back! ------------- |
Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 30 Jul 14 at 10:12pm
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If it is 969 then that makes it faster than 470s, RS500s, Contenders,
Fireballs, I'm looking forward to someone actually demonstrating that. Me too ! Not impossible of course but not enough 'takers' from this forum. We think there are quite a lot of them however who could do it occasionally just as we do sometimes as well. However we also suspect a few to be chronic suffers of 'performance anxiety' ... eeerrm ... the sailing version of course to be clear .. before we run into further trouble. Sailfest ? Several Icons are going already and there will also be a further 'special' feature involving Icons in conjunction with Sailracer. Plus the opportunity to race one during the main event. (You don't have to beat any other classes - first time out would be a big call !). Greame - can you make it as well ? Mike L. |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 30 Jul 14 at 10:15pm
That's right - I remember reading that now! Do we have to pre-enter the Icon challenge thing, or sign up when we're there?  ------------- |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 30 Jul 14 at 10:29pm
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Sailfest? Is that one of those GJW Sailjuice things? Wouldn't enter one of those on principle, I wonder if GJW realise what negative image they have as a result of the sponsorship, they'd be the last insurance company on the planet I'd use.
I might see if I can get a crew for the Island race, just for a blast, that'll be a good test for it. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 31 Jul 14 at 9:28am
All those boats are high wind trapeze types. A good National 12 will sail rings round them in the lighter stuff, not only beating them on handicap but beat some of them over the water. The Icon will do even better. As has pointed out, the Tasar is a bit iffy in the light stuff and this has been fixed in the Icon. I'm not sure what your definition of a hotshot is ?? Nathan Outteridge ? A Olympic medalist ? Or a competent, amateur club and open meeting sailor ? At what level of competence do you want to exclude their results from the data ? If the Starcross Icon had been given a rating of 1000, it would have won by even more and then immediately been classified, by you, as a bandit. ------------- Steve |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 31 Jul 14 at 9:47am
But don't you see, you're making exactly the point. We all know the handicap will not be correct across all conditions, but it needs to be averagely 'fair' it's why the system is currently screwed up. Take the Phantom as a prime example, it has been quite literally trashed off the face of existence by the inlanders, Why? because it's being used to its strengths constantly and there is not enough data from regions where it is weak. i.e. On the sea in open water where it can't punch through the waves to come even close to a Laser or Contender given sailors of approximate even standard. So you take a boat that hasn't even made it to coastal resorts and virtually ensure it never will with an EN number like that, it's not logical, it's not what the system is supposed to do. Until you cap the stats and take an even sample from a variety of venues you will not get an average. Or you opt for the physical data, build a formula from what the decades of knowledge some of you must have and start from that. But allowing a computer system to simply act on data imbalance is madness, there's an old adage about computer generated data - Rubbish in = Rubbish out. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 31 Jul 14 at 10:06am
What part of Starcross Yacht Club on the Exe Estuary and Paignton Sailing Club Torbay are not coastal ? FWIW, I have a hunch the Icon will sail better in coastal waters than it does on inland puddles. I'm out, as they say in Dragon's Den due to GRF's sophistry. All this distracts from the fact that Mike has delivered a great 21st C double hander which clearly has it's roots in the Tasar/NS14. I hope it gets the success it deserves. It should be marketed as a quick, modern and simple one design. The PY will sort it's self out as numbers build. ------------- Steve |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 31 Jul 14 at 10:48am
Then as Commodore of a sailing club that does not send a return I do hope you will address this and at least do a paper return this year if not the full works via the PYS site. This will help with the 'imbalance' of data. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 31 Jul 14 at 10:58am
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he's only in it for the parking space.... ------------- |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 31 Jul 14 at 12:36pm
------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 31 Jul 14 at 2:03pm
The tool is there in the pys site to adjust your handicaps locally, thus overcoming the complication you're worried about, dual score your season to see what happens..... then implement it when you are confident. ------------- https://skiff-media.teemill.com/" rel="nofollow - T-SHIRTS https://www.photo4me.com/profile/23908/" rel="nofollow - PRINTS |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 31 Jul 14 at 2:13pm
you could have saved a bit of bandwidth and finger strain with a response to Grumpf on handicaps.... ------------- |
Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 31 Jul 14 at 2:20pm
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haha i did think about shortening the response but i hear short jokes are a sore subject... ------------- https://skiff-media.teemill.com/" rel="nofollow - T-SHIRTS https://www.photo4me.com/profile/23908/" rel="nofollow - PRINTS |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 31 Jul 14 at 10:00pm
Come on, now far be it from me to speak in any derogatory way about Sailing clubs and venues but I've sailed both of those and you can hardly call them 'coastal' in the true sense, one is a river, the other a very sheltered bay. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |