mylar sails are a load of crap - discuss
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11569
Printed Date: 12 Jul 25 at 8:11am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: mylar sails are a load of crap - discuss
Posted By: kneewrecker
Subject: mylar sails are a load of crap - discuss
Date Posted: 25 Jul 14 at 11:17am
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[TUBE]KiU60G-AsXM[/TUBE] |
Replies:
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 25 Jul 14 at 11:28am
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More like - "just because you can't see through it doesn't mean Dacron is rubbish". The Lightnings have a choice. I went for Mylar on my first sail, but have gone back to Dacron for my new one. Absolutely no idea if one is faster than the other. Good call by RS, in my view. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 25 Jul 14 at 11:39am
Someone should tell this bunch of muppets who have a choice ... they have all got it wrong ... |
Posted By: chrisarnell1
Date Posted: 25 Jul 14 at 11:45am
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I'm still hacking around in boats with 20 year old (or older) Dacron sails. Whatever they give you in terms of performance (when new), Mylar sails seem expensive, short-lived and fragile. If you're supplying sailors with limited budgets who don't need that couple of percentage points of performance Dacron seems like a good call. I doubt there will be too many 20 year old Mylar sails in service. |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 25 Jul 14 at 11:48am
| Yep; dacron is cheap and durable so why do they just not get on and say that rather than spinning that line? |
Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 25 Jul 14 at 12:01pm
+1, good call  ------------- Rodney Cobb Suntouched Sailboats Limited http://www.suntouched.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.suntouched.co.uk [EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 25 Jul 14 at 12:05pm
it is, but does it retain competitive life for as long? Seems like a logical model to follow Laser and go for something stretchy... sure, it will last for a while for club sailors, but it's also one hell of a cash cow from the performance end of the spectrum who can easily stretch a sail in a couple of months regatta sailing. ------------- |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 25 Jul 14 at 1:13pm
How much do Finn sailors spend on a mast? What is the range of masts available for Finns? Why does North have a http://www.northonedesign.com/tabid/14277/Default.aspx" rel="nofollow - guide to measuring mast bend on their website? How compatible with is this with a SMOD? |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 25 Jul 14 at 1:51pm
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I think 2457 is being quite clear, let's transcribe that video... just so we can see the facts as peddled: people perceive nowadays that you must have a mylar this, that or the other. When you've got an unstayed carbon rig and there's a lot of difference in bend in different conditions, you are actually far better with a dacron sail that stretches. Fact or Hype? Finn has an unstayed carbon rig RS300 has an unstayed carbon rig D-One has an unstayed carbon rig D-Zero has an unstayed carbon rig All the above seem quite fine with Mylar sails... did their respective designers get it wrong? ------------- |
Posted By: Riki @ RS
Date Posted: 25 Jul 14 at 1:55pm
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I think the Finn example totally defines Jo's explanation in the video - Rodney can help supply you a beautiful new Mylar Finn sail utterly tailored to your body weight, your mast and even the wind conditions. The choice of fabric for the Aero is based on its ability to work well in a wide range of weights and wind to give it the broadest scope. Its not about mylar or any other classes choice, its about a design and fabric that was right for Aero. As its been mentioned before, this certainly isn't about cost - we could have sourced a mylar sail for the same cost as the production unit. The characteristics of this particular type of dacron (and there's loads of different deniers/qualities) was precisely what was needed from the outset to match the rigs. ------------- Riki Hooker Sales Director, RS Sailing www.rssailing.com |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 25 Jul 14 at 2:00pm
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So Riki, if you were re-issuing the 300, would you put a dacron sail on it? ------------- |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 25 Jul 14 at 2:03pm
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Maybe Jo Richards has a different set of design criteria. They are using the same top mast for 3 different sized sails, they want a sail that is easy to set over a wide range of conditions for an enormous range of sailor ability. The cost of the materials in Dacron or Mylar isn't really very different these days compared to the price of a new boat, so I doubt cost came into it. Having used one of the sails, I'd say they will be far better wearing than Laser sails, so I doubt there would be a difference in how often sails are replaced at the top end. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 25 Jul 14 at 2:03pm
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For what it's worth, the RS300 has a dacron luff in an otherwise laminated sail. The dacron is there to take the stretch due to the large amounts of mast bend. ------------- Steve B RS300 411 https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 25 Jul 14 at 2:13pm
Beat me to it! To be fair Dacron does tend to last a lot longer. When a film sail dies it usually dies in spectacular fashion by disintegrating. To Mylar keeps competitive life for longer but when it dies it does. Dacron loses competitive life quicker but will be usable for a lot longer (I know of a lot of boats with 20+ year old sails on them that race at club level). ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Riki @ RS
Date Posted: 25 Jul 14 at 2:18pm
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This isn't an RS300, its an RS Aero, they are different things to different people, with an entirely different set of parameters and circumstances. Any one single design decision doesn't indicate or imply that every other possible connotation is wrong or an error. A bunch of people that really properly know what they are talking about tested a bunch of different sails, fabrics, deniers, designs, shapes, masts and decided which one was best to fit the brief for this particular boat. ------------- Riki Hooker Sales Director, RS Sailing www.rssailing.com |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 25 Jul 14 at 2:27pm
ftfy
But seriously I didn't have any issue with that sail, it seemed perfectly 'Ronseal' to me, I quite like soft dacron, my new EPS sail has a fair amount in it, just a bit too much tbh it's a bit big. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 25 Jul 14 at 2:35pm
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I feel sure that byte C2 sails, only available in Mylar of course, would be lighter than a Dacron equivalent. If I was to replace my Lightning sail which is in brown/cream/black Dacron I would go for another Dacron in pure white but radial cut. The 'former boy' club races his lightning with a Mylar. The Byte sails keep shape very well even after years of extensive mast bending and Cunningham dragging but they loose shine and the surface gets a little textured. This however has little effect on performance as results show.
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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 25 Jul 14 at 2:37pm
true, but saying, and I quote, you are actually far better with a dacron sail does. Anyway, at least you guys are acknowledging there's a perception problem to overcome, good luck with that, after all it was was the RS boats et al of the 90's which made dacron seem rather old hat in production boats. I guess these things go around in cycles.... Any news yet on the potential split between 7s and 9s in clubs? Are the both looking evenly-sold or is one looking more favourable than another? ------------- |
Posted By: Jon711
Date Posted: 25 Jul 14 at 3:12pm
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So Riki, what you are saying is instead of making the best you can, you have gone for something that will be a reasonable average... Well, that is more than the Laser supplied, I suppose. (But, you are not in competition with them, are you?)
Jon ------------- Blaze 711 |
Posted By: hum3
Date Posted: 25 Jul 14 at 3:31pm
Define "best you can"...
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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 25 Jul 14 at 3:40pm
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I have zero concerns with what Riki's written here... spot on actually. To paraphrase - 'We found that dacron worked best for this boat and design brief' I don't think anyone can argue with that as fact- after all, it's their design brief, they should know. Whether or not a dacron sail on a 21st Century design is enough of a deal-breaker, well that's a personal choice- neither right, nor wrong. I know it would be a leap for me personally- being 'out-teched' by a Supernova or a Solo... no way. However the video dialogue, which is transcribed earlier, suggests that all unstayed carbon spars would 'be better' with dacron over mylar. That's the sort of hyped-up marketing clap trap that some folks find a bit, well, disingenuous, especially when it's from possibly the only guys who've put a bit cool into recreational dinghy sailing over the past 20 odd years.... hence it's ripe for a bit of piss-taking on here. ------------- |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 25 Jul 14 at 4:53pm
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You've got to laugh, you spend all that R&D, invest countless thousands investing in tooling and super light manufacturing techniques work out what's the best engine for it to give them something they can afford and they come on giving all this bollox. I'd have to unleash the GRF customer service team on them and explain the full details of sex travel and foxtrot oscar..
Give em a mylar option two grand dearer see how their eyes water and they pee themselves as the pile of coins in their trouser pocket falls over and cracks their nuts.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 25 Jul 14 at 5:42pm
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Spent an hour patching a dacron jib on Wednesday, which isn't really that old. Its a bery hard tempered cloth and where its creased it seems to have creased time and again until the threads have just snapped. Yet the majority of the sail is just fine, its hard and crinkly and everything, in fact even thepanels that need work are basically hard abd crinkly. This is a sail that's very carefully treated, stored rolled round a tube and never left to flap. So it seems as if high end dacron breaks up almost as easily as mylar. Ofcourse if yiu are happy with a sail made from tent cloth its a different matter.
On cloth choice for Mass production boats remember that the job of the one design designer is notto make the fasrest boat, its to make the one that will sell best into the market, which is probably rather more complicsted. |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 25 Jul 14 at 8:09pm
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I have no problem with them saying that dacron is a better fit for their design brief; a recreational boat for institutions probably would be better suited to a tough and cheap dacron sail but to suggest it is a superior choice for una rigs given what the Finn boys have developed is just silly ...
Clearly Jo knows his stuff and I think most would interpret better to mean performance but he no doubt means better in terms of the brief which isn't the performance brief the Finn boys operate to ...
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 25 Jul 14 at 8:41pm
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The Finn Fat boys have a very expensive mast, which probably costs a lot more than you would pay for on a boat in the Aero's target price range. Even I know that much.
It is fact, that if you produce a laminate sail with a limited number of panels (which the target retail price would preclude)then it will only perform to a limited range on a shall we say un sophisticated mast, we know this from windsurfers who use un sophisticated masts and over bend them to use luff curve shaping. So my friends this time y'all are wrong and they are actually quite right in what they are saying, so you need to give it a rest, you're exhibiting ignorant consumer bell end tendencies and we're all so much more knowledgable than that are we not? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 25 Jul 14 at 10:27pm
| There is no escaping that the rig looks old fashioned, which I said when I was the culprit for starting the RS Aero thread last Autumn, when compared with the Mylar/3DL sails on my Solo, however I accept that RS need to make their wedge by rationalising the boat. I thing longetivity of Dacron vs Mylar is a false argument to the serious racer, if you use Dacron you will have to replace the sail every year to be at the front, this is not the case with modern Mylar sails where two or three seasons at least are possible. |
Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 26 Jul 14 at 8:25am
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Modern Finn sails regularly will actually need to be replaced once a season (depending on the make).
Compare that say to a Phantom sail (supported rig and heavier cloth) that will last significantly longer. |
Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 26 Jul 14 at 8:58am
This may be true but there are a number factors to be considered here:- - The Finn is not a SMOD so the aim of every sail manufacturer is to provide the fastest possible sails rather than the most durable and long lasting sails. Generally speaking this results in the use of very light materials, typically 0.75mm with a 1.00,, leech although the range can be as light as 0.5mm for a light wind sail up to 1.5mm (still light compared with typical SMOD sails) for heavy winds. - Most recreational Finn sailors buy a new sail every year for use at major events and use last year's sail for club racing and training. Others will buy a new sail and use it, happily, for many years. The Olympic guys will, obviously, use more sails but it's worth remembering that they are, on the whole, full time sailors. - Most Finn sail manufacturers offer a light wind sail, two all purpose sails and two heavy wind sails (the two options for the all purpose and heavy winds sails are for lightweights and heavyweights). - The only personalisation for Finn sails is that they have to have the luff curve cut to match the mast bend as every mast is different. Of course with a SMOD this is not necessary as the masts have all got the same bend characteristics, well should have
When plastic sails were first introduced into the Finn class I was very sceptical but now I would never go back to Dacron. I think that the sails, even on a bendy mast, set much better and have a competitive life, in my experience, that is longer than Dacron. Having said that it's probably true to say that a Dacron sail will last much longer than Mylar. ------------- Rodney Cobb Suntouched Sailboats Limited http://www.suntouched.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.suntouched.co.uk [EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk |
Posted By: Null
Date Posted: 26 Jul 14 at 9:33am
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What about the solo? Sure it has shrouds but it's a very slack rig, so to all intense in purposes it's almost a unstated rig. Perhaps more accurately defined as a slack rig. Most sail produced now are laminate cloths. That said I agree with others, a Dacron sail wouldn't bother me or be a deal breaker. Just rather not be told something it's not!
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 26 Jul 14 at 9:52am
| Any Contender sailors out there with an opinion? I notice that having tried laminate sails most of the fleet seem to have returned to Dacron judging from images of recent Championships. |
Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 26 Jul 14 at 10:06am
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Dacron vs. Mylar
Film sails higher stability than woven due to better off-axis properties ( from the film and any secondary fibres) and lower crimp of the main load fibres, ( the weaving process means that the fibre are not straight and thus when they are loaded they straighten out first leading to stretch), a well designed and built, film will retain shape better than a woven sail. The instability of the woven sails can be used advantageously as the sail can be distorted and thus the shape can be changed. So you can make a film sail better but it will have a narrower wind range as its shape is more "fixed ". You can make a woven sail have a wider range but this does involve applying a lot of load, on the controls. If you see how much downhaul load is applied by the top laser sailors and the effect that it has on the sail you will get an idea of how effective this is, but its it doesn't feel that it is doing the sail much good and it must limit the working life of the sail. So RS have made a difficult call here based on a good understanding of the technical issues, but whether they are right remains to be seen bearing in mind that a Mylar sail would have been an easier "sell". |
Posted By: sandgrounder
Date Posted: 26 Jul 14 at 5:50pm
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I ordered a new Laser sail yesterday, safe in the knowledge that, all other things being equal, the guy who buys a new sail 2 or 3 months down the line will have better boatspeed across a wide range of conditions. That's just the way it goes with dacron and is exactly the reason why top Laser sailors utilise a new sail at every major regatta.
On the other hand I had a test sail of the D-Zero today, the first time I've had a sail in the production boat as opposed to the pre-production prototype. The final production laminate sail they've produced is perfectly matched to the mast and responded well over a range of conditions from light airs to F3-F4. North Sails have done a very nice job and I'd be happy to purchase a new sail every season, if necessary. |
Posted By: Caveman
Date Posted: 28 Jul 14 at 2:13pm
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My P & B ODL 04 kevlar Solo sail has just had to be patched after mainly light use starting in the Spring of 2012. The worst of the wear is around the tack close to the Cunningham. The rest of the sail is still OK. It was used for open and more important club races - say one to two hours of sailing every four weeks. By comparison, my older P & B Dacron sail (2010) remains surprisingly crisp and still feels very competitive. Out of interest, I did a spread sheet comparison of my results with each of the two sails. There was hardly any difference to see although the results for the dacron sail were just a bit better. Maybe that is because it has a fuller cut. Are we lesser mortal sailors kidding ourselves that we need a Kevlar sail? I will continue to use the Dacron sail until next Spring at least. In the meantime I have bought something else in carbon fibre - a road bike. ------------- Enthusiasm>Skill |
Posted By: Null
Date Posted: 28 Jul 14 at 3:54pm
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Interestingly OdL04 is the lighter cloth Caveman. P&B can and will supply you with ODL06 which is much longer lasting. Its difficult to compare apples with apples unless you have the same cloth weight (i guess thats the right term) in each respective material. My favourite sail of all time in the Solos was a North SM8+ which was a light weight laminate sail, lasted for ages both club and open racing. I believe the new owner has just retired it 3 years on from when i had it.
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Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 28 Jul 14 at 10:19pm
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My new sail is grey and see through in places, it has little tape bits and some contrasting threads too... I still start 30 seconds late and get buried into the first windward mark, but I feel faster with it than my old Dacron one, which didn't have such a cool badge on it either, but with which I got exactly the same results.... Discuss
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Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 28 Jul 14 at 10:23pm
Who cares so long as you're happy and having fun?  ------------- |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 28 Jul 14 at 10:27pm
Quite, I exchanged pleasantries with a chap next to me in a jam yesterday, lovely Ferrari he had, my bog standard Beemer was however equally stationary at that point (and many more), so he wasn't getting anywhere quicker than me, but I bet he was happier with his car!
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Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 28 Jul 14 at 10:44pm
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Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 11:00am
This is the crux ... a Finn mast is a high quality component; produced to a known bend profile. These are not cheap but the best never is. I think what Jo is saying is dacron is the best material for making a sail to fit that mast which is produced on a budget and which will have less consistent bend characteristic so will need a sail that can accommodate a range of luff curves ...
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Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 11:23am
I have to say that the key to a good rig, be it using Dacron or Mylar, is to ensure that the masts are manufactured with consistent bend characteristics. It's comforting to me to know that Compotech bend test every mast before shipping and that North have an equally stringent process for sail production. People who doubt that a bendy mast with a Mylar sail can perform across the range should try a D-Zero and find out for themselves. ------------- Rodney Cobb Suntouched Sailboats Limited http://www.suntouched.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.suntouched.co.uk [EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 11:30am
With the varied conditions on Sunday the sail seemed to set well in all them. People did comment that the sail seemed to be oversheeted at certain times (although the tell tales were all flying) but the boat still seemed to be moving along very nicely indeed. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 29 Jul 14 at 8:00pm
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There seems to be a move back to Dacron. The J70 has Dacron as well, and one would have thought that was a boat that would have gone for film. One big issue we have is the over charging for moulded sails. A sailmaker recently told me the saving on a one piece sail should be about 30%. Yet we pay more. Panelled film sails are about as expensive as they get due to the finishing required.
Andy ------------- Andy Mck |
Posted By: patj
Date Posted: 30 Jul 14 at 5:43am
| For our next suit of sails we'll go for the material the mast was designed for - cotton! |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 30 Jul 14 at 8:29am
Are you not paying for the R&D? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 30 Jul 14 at 7:20pm
| I have had three 3DL sails for my Solo (profligate I know), none of which have worn out, but North have developed these sails over the past three seasons. The key benefit of 3DL is the ability to apply serious loads to these sails without fear of pulling the sail apart or it losing shape. I use an 8:1 cunningham, which allows me to blade out the head in a blow, which makes me much more competitive, being a couple of stone lighter than the heavy heavy air boys. I would be extremely nervous about applying the same loads to a dacron sail. |
Posted By: MattK
Date Posted: 01 Aug 14 at 6:20pm
Anyone know what the lines between the two top battens are about?
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Posted By: Jeepers
Date Posted: 01 Aug 14 at 6:30pm
| For unstayed masts - and those masts are bendy by all accounts - the masts look pretty straight. I'd say more mainsheet tension required for a start - at a glance. |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 01 Aug 14 at 6:30pm
1016 looks like he has his top batten inverted ... 
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Posted By: Jeepers
Date Posted: 01 Aug 14 at 6:39pm
| 2547 - defo inverted batten - missed that - but have they really sold over 1000 boats? |
Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 01 Aug 14 at 6:43pm
| The report on the front page has it at 200 boats sold world wide, 100 in the UK. They know how to sell em! |
Posted By: Jeepers
Date Posted: 01 Aug 14 at 6:45pm
| I guess it takes real guts to start at 1 these days! |