Getting Better
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11548
Printed Date: 13 Jul 25 at 2:02am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Getting Better
Posted By: fish n ships
Subject: Getting Better
Date Posted: 11 Jul 14 at 3:23pm
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So i was sailing at an open recently and having a good race with other boats. I was doing ok but not winning (probably at least 1/3-1/2 lap behind the leader by the end). Whilst sailing around i decided that i want to challenge the leaders (or at least get as high as my abilities allow) and to do this obviously going to take some training/practice/coaching and me putting in the time. I then hit upon the thought of how to do this. If i was playing rugby again i'd get as fit as possible, practice my passing, kicking and tackling, attend training twice a week and hopefully build up my abilities but its not the same with sailing:
I know that this has been mentioned before that as a sport we don't generally practice much but is there a way i can spend an hour or two to a week to improve my sailing? I know i can't be the only one who wants to improve and is after inspiration. Cheers |
Replies:
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 11 Jul 14 at 3:34pm
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change clubs? ------------- |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 11 Jul 14 at 3:54pm
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Changing clubs might solve one of the problems, if there is one with Phantoms around, but there are usually reasons to be a one particular club. Persuade someone a bit better than you to start sailing the boats, and then do 2 boat tuning sessions together. Borrow a boat where there are similar ones racing at the club (Lasers, maybe?) and get the boat on boat practice there. The skills are transferable. Join in their coaching system, too. Pay one of the class hotshots to do some one on one coaching with you. I suspect this a problem many of us face. Simply doing the circuit can help a lot, but it would be nice to get a step up. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 11 Jul 14 at 4:00pm
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Sail with better people than yourself. I do all the time ((-; Seriously though find people who are beating you and sail with them as often as you can, changing Clubs may not be an option for you, it isn't really practical for me or many people. However as you sail a Phantom, they seem a popular class at present so could you do some more travellers? I am not too sure about lot's of out of boat training, mind you I do work for myself in a physical job so general stamina is not an issue for me. Do you tire during races? Seems to me sailing is more of a mind and technique game than pure muscle, some will disagree but to an extent I think if it's hurting you're doing it wrong. Biggest challenge for me is keeping concentration high while at the same time keeping tension low. In the medium conditions we often race in the trick is not trying too hard and forcing the boat, somehow quick seems to be staying loose and letting the boat run sweetly. Not that I'm that great to give advice, not a big winner but by the sound of it like yourself want to trouble the top end a little more often. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Jul 14 at 4:00pm
| What you most need are other folks around you, so what can you do to encourage other folks to sail Phantoms at your club? That can be both lending your boat to other people at your club for trips round the bay to encourage them to get one, but also promoting your club as a vanue to other Phantom sailors. |
Posted By: fish n ships
Date Posted: 11 Jul 14 at 4:04pm
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yeah changing clubs is a little more drastic than i had hoped. I'm hoping to encourage a few people to get phantoms (they're a brilliant boat for places without the space for kites, esp if you're a little lardy for laser/supernova) so will see if we can encourage some of the better sailors into them. i had thought about coaching but was unsure how this works. likewise i'm joining in as much of the open circuit as possible so hoping to improve their it would just be nice to feel i'm doing something productive sailing at my home club. edit: sorry jim i posted as you were. i hadn't thought about encouraging other phantoms to sail with us, equally handing out my boat to people is something i hadn't thought about. |
Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 11 Jul 14 at 4:18pm
| Where do you sail? There must be some Phantoms close by |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 11 Jul 14 at 4:19pm
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I'm an imitator, it's why I like sailing a boat faster than the hot shots, so even when I screw up, I can catch back up and emulate their style. There is real magic watching those Europe girls in their almost effortless style and body position, I don't know why it is but it always seems to be wimmen I pick the most up from, probably down to chauvinism, but whatever it works, they really shouldn't beat us so when they are you know you're doing it wrong and when they sail past you in their bloody Topper or stuff you in the Laser Radial you know your doing it badly wrong.
Also sailing on very confined water with quite a few boats and having to make lots of rapid mark round decisions not just the one your rounding but planning a couple ahead just to get the water rights, not to mention the shifts, the boat on boat rule observation requirement, it's all very very good training that we really never get on the sea. If they ever get another of those FOM's (Forum Open Meeting) off the ground come to that I learned loads at that meet, they all pretend to be useless knob ends but they are not, and the atmosphere is so friendly and not intimidating at all like major class events. (Just steer clear of anyone who even mentions the words Brandy and Babysham in the same sentence I found smiling like a simpleton and dribbling a bit seemed to work and he shuffled off, problem was by the end of the evening pretty much everyone was doing exactly the same thing.) ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 11 Jul 14 at 4:26pm
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One of the best ever UK Laser sailors, Keith Wilkins, trained in Bristol Docks alone. I think that boat handling and getting a relationship with your boat so that you and the boat are one is the key. Once that is achieved you can focus on keeping your head out of the boat and concentrate on strategy and tactics. It's better if you can find a training partner but not essential.
To summarise get comfortable with the boat and then, when racing, you can focus on the race.... ------------- Rodney Cobb Suntouched Sailboats Limited http://www.suntouched.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.suntouched.co.uk [EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 11 Jul 14 at 4:37pm
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I found that the best way was to go to opens. The standard is usually higher than at a club so you can learn. Get the basics right - keep the boat flat, and I mean properly flat, anything else in a phantom and you slip sideways big time. Get enough kicker on, this means that the top batten trailing edge telltale should be flying about 50% of the time. Don't oversheet, the end of the boom should be pointing to the outside of the transom, unless you need to pinch alittle then towards the inner gunwale at the transom. Anything more and you'll choke the sail and lose speed. Play the main if it gets windy to keep it flat. Then there is using the rig tension upwind. that is probably best explained with your boat on shore with someone else. Setting it up, read the tuning guides. Simon Childs on the phantom website is still relevant and works for most. More recently Jim Hunt did one and its on the website too. This gives you tips on how to sail the thing fast as well. What is your club by the way? ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 11 Jul 14 at 6:17pm
Avoid that one as well, he shouts at you if so much as your sails shadow darkens his view..  ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 11 Jul 14 at 8:08pm
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I totally agree with Rodney; I think time spent on the water tacking, gybing, mark rounding, holding position etc, can actually make much more difference than sailing against other boats. You get a real 'feel' for the boat and then develop a better sense of what is fast and what is slow. Invest in a go pro or similar to analyse technique. get someone in a powerboat to take pics and give feedback on your sail shape.
------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 13 Jul 14 at 9:32am
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Get a copy of Eric Twiname's "Sail, Race and Win". It's all about how to analyse what to learn, how to plan to learn, and how to actually learn. As mentioned earlier, racing can be a really bad way to improve your sailing, because there is so much going on that you cannot pick out one facet of this incredibly complicated sport and learn how to do it right. Training is also very rewarding; a lot of the time a good training session is more fun than a race, because you get to enjoy sailing and sailing well. Also, the single biggest difference between winners and the rest of the pack, in my experience, is the intensity of their sailing. The winners are constantly searching for the groove; trimming harder, concentrating on the incoming waves and puffs more. |
Posted By: MerlinMags
Date Posted: 14 Jul 14 at 5:17pm
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I second that; read books. Not for their own sake, but to get ideas for training techniques you can perform solo.
I can only think of a few exercises (below) but Twiname and other authors will have plenty more. 1. Hover beside a mark, maintaining station 2. Set your watch and practice starts on a very short line 3. Practice stopping and accelerating 4. Do 200 tacks, until they are perfect and you don't have to think 5. Ditto gybes 6. Sail rudderless to learn steering without the tiller |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 14 Jul 14 at 5:41pm
I need to do all that, I'm useless at maintaining station and it's fundamental to a good start on a windsurfing startline as is sailing backwards and forwards without slipping sideways, if there were a way to do that in a dinghy I'd buy it. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 15 Jul 14 at 10:37pm
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Two, magic, words Drill Holes |
Posted By: fish n ships
Date Posted: 21 Jul 14 at 11:49am
Is the book really that worthwhile? I don't mean to be a little negative but quite a few of the books i've looked through aren't overly brilliant. Don't get me wrong I'm happy to try anything just wanted to get a bit more info. As for all the hints and tips, thanks ladies and gents, i'm now trying to go down early for racing to spend and hour or so doing tacking and gybing practice and trying to sit on station (seen the lasers doing this although never tried it myself). While i'm writing anyway, has anyone any experience about racing finns? Theres a well sailed one i end up racing against from time to time and it seems to perform well for its handicap? I was under the impression the olympic classes tended to have a lower PY due to the above average quality of sailors in the class? |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 21 Jul 14 at 1:31pm
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Get Clive Eplett's Book ... it's much more real world sailing for most of us than the rest of the tosh out there focused on championship sailing. http://www.amazon.co.uk/CLUB-SAILOR-back-front-Eplett/dp/0957091508" rel="nofollow - http://www.amazon.co.uk/CLUB-SAILOR-back-front-Eplett/dp/0957091508 ------------- |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 21 Jul 14 at 1:37pm
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Actually don't bother. Stay at the back and pootle about. People seem to be so much happier at the back of the fleet, have a chat and a yarn on their way round. Have you ever noticed that it is supposed rubbish people who seem to be smiling more while sailing.
If you get better it only leads to disappointment. And it's far too serious up front. Try and have a chat only to be told to "f*** off, I'm trying to race....." much nicer at the back. ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 21 Jul 14 at 1:39pm
Oh and if you are anywhere near the line at the start you'll get some crazed loon trying to smash your pride and joy to pieces.  ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 21 Jul 14 at 1:44pm
 ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Thunder Road
Date Posted: 21 Jul 14 at 1:51pm
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Looks like he enjoyed a couple of Brandy and Babychams before he got out there ------------- Finn GBR16 Thunder Road. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 21 Jul 14 at 2:00pm
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Back of the fleet is more fun in many classes (I've spent happy hours at the back of the Firefly fleet), but one answer is to sail a boat where the front don't take it too seriously, either. Suspect the Phantoms aren't one of these, though - too many 'names' involved. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 21 Jul 14 at 2:00pm
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modern, simple, easy to sail yet stunning performance in prevailing conditions.... what's not to like? ------------- |
Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 21 Jul 14 at 2:08pm
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I was late yesterday so only managed 2 races but what fun! We had four Lightnings out (not the 'former boy' who had just won our Byte open) but a beginner lady, a very experienced gentleman even older than me and a very quick 25 year old girl. Perfect wind, lovely sun and great competition. Some days sailing can just be perfect...that feeling when you round a mark on to a beat, establish elegant lean, sheet in, point and just go......just fabulous.
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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 21 Jul 14 at 2:12pm
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Jeez- he's even holding the wiggle stick properly... and what's that, yes, it's definitely one... a sensible sitting out position... ------------- |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 21 Jul 14 at 2:36pm
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I reckon he's had his teeth whitened ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: MerlinMags
Date Posted: 21 Jul 14 at 2:39pm
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I rate Eric Twiname's books highly. Written a while back, and still applicable now. Start hunting ebay!
http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Clive Eplett's book is a cracker as well. Perfect for club sailors. |
Posted By: fish n ships
Date Posted: 21 Jul 14 at 2:50pm
Was this a bad weekend on the water? My brief time amongst the top norf circuit boats (around 0.5 laps at the start of the race) seemed quite a pleasant experience? Certainly the same as with the mid/bottom fleet boats (although maybe with a touch more concentration!). |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 21 Jul 14 at 3:21pm
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Past experience. I was more alluding to the seriousness of it up front. Much easier further back where people aren't quite so serious, and therefore there's a little more fun.
My most enjoyable racing came last year in my late fathers bashed up old solo in conditions where I had no hope. Hated the boat but the people I was sailing against took a far more employable approach. In the second race I was up amongst the leaders for a while, they weren't happy I was there and were miffed that I appeared to be holding them up. Their own fault that I knew the rules better than them and they couldn't bully me around. Anyway the wind dropped off and backwards I went to where I belonged that day and the fun started again ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Thunder Road
Date Posted: 21 Jul 14 at 3:22pm
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I have always thought that Garry Hoyt 'Go for Gold'' probably tells you all you need to know about sailing and life. ------------- Finn GBR16 Thunder Road. |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 21 Jul 14 at 4:34pm
+1 ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: ChrisI
Date Posted: 21 Jul 14 at 7:44pm
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Eric Twiname - Start to Win.... the classic.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 21 Jul 14 at 7:52pm
+1, The Bible, still relevant today. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 21 Jul 14 at 11:15pm
Thanks James, and MerlinMags Also available http://Clubsailor.co.uk/wp/buy" rel="nofollow - direct for less than Amazon, P&P included I'm a big fan of Start to Win too Not sure if anyone's mentioned this one, but try volunteering to go out on the Safety boat with one of your clubs better sailors. Follow, close as possible, and watch, really watch, the boats at the front, then those at the back. Then try and put into words what they are doing right and wrong and get your companion to critique your analysis and give their observations too. Jot them down. Next time out, put the good things into practice and avoid the duffer-moves. Over time, you should be able to sail to your own internal critique/commentary. Am I sailing to my strategy? Is the boat flat and fore and aft trimmed right? Is the rig right (set-up and sail-trim)? Am I positioned well vis-a-vis other boats, now and for the next set of moves (tactics)? How well am I sailing the waves/chop? The best way to test your application of this is of course class racing among others, some of whom you expect to beat and others you'd love to beat. Little point either getting hammered and demoralised or, alternatively, stealing candy from babies. Clive ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: Dan LXIX
Date Posted: 22 Jul 14 at 3:02pm
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I'll un-lurk for a moment. I bought an actioncam when I got my Phantom a few months ago, and having it stuck either on the deck facing back, or clamped to the transom bar looking forward means I am able to watch myself making all sorts of mistakes - it's very useful. The facing forward mode is also really good, because you can see the boats in front of you (to a point anyway) and that's where the better sailors are, so you can try and compare what you're doing with them.
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