Skiff fitness
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11541
Printed Date: 13 Jul 25 at 1:37am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Skiff fitness
Posted By: dohertpk
Subject: Skiff fitness
Date Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 11:09pm
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Hi all, So my RS600 is kicking my ass. As much as I love this boat, I've never been so physically exhausted after anything. I regularly feel nauseous during a sail. I'm young and I work hard on my fitness but I'm still a relative sailing novice, and very very definitely a skiff novice. I assume, and hope, that when (read 'if') my familiarity with the boat increases, then I'll find it less physically exhausting. In the interim, my questions are - why is the 600 so much more physically taxing than a say, a Laser, and how could I adapt my fitness work to accommodate the demands of skiff sailing?
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Replies:
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 11:20pm
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Probably because of all the swimming. You don't need to be fit to sail a skiff, just have good muscle memory, good balance and good agility.
Having recently bought a road bike and started to regularly commute 9 miles each way to work on it, I can tell you I am not fit, but I could happily sail my 700 or a 600 or even a 49er tomorrow and not feel too bad. The key thing really is learning the drills for tacking and gybing, and developing the boat handling to keep the boat smoothly trucking along. Learning to read the wind and pre-empt gusts or lulls will make a huge difference as overreacting to these events sap energy. |
Posted By: Null
Date Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 11:23pm
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I would suggest it's not more physically taxing, not in any great amount where you should feel sick! I think what you will find is that you are getting more worn out as your expecting things to go wrong, as such you won't be breathing correctly which is all important at getting oxygen round your body, so you are feeling tired and worn out. I get it in nervous situations DH mtb riding, I just don't breath enough! The other reason you maybe knackered more than in a laser is you will no doubt be swimming more! Or righting the boat after a capsize, all of which sap your energy! Just try and relax a bit, the boat isn't going to kill you. If you fall in really the worse thing that happen is you will get wet! Do you get nervous before showers at home?
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Posted By: dohertpk
Date Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 11:35pm
| I think you both probably hit the nail on the head; the nervousness is totally exhausting as much as anything. Funny thing is; I'm actually through the 'swimming phase' (don't really capsize anymore) and into the 'oh christ this thing is quick' phase. Just a bit frustrating to have to back off because my nervous system is having second thoughts about the wisdom of the whole enterprise. |
Posted By: dohertpk
Date Posted: 06 Jul 14 at 5:25pm
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Just as an interesting addendum...found this on the MPS website: http://www.mustoskiff.com/reports-and-news/2011/gps-hrm-data.htm Much higher heart rates recorded than I would have imagined and would seem to go some way to explaining the exhaustion.
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Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 06 Jul 14 at 6:10pm
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Interesting, though it doesn't surprise me. My heart rate used to get very high when tacking a Contender when I was newish to it - a significant factor was uncertainty about whether I was going to go swimming or not! ------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 07 Jul 14 at 10:47pm
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Sounds familiar......... I sail a Laser a fair bit and also cycle so my fitness is OK, however I'm also sailing a board and I find that after half hour I'm exhausted in an F3 or so. So the answer had to be my attitude rather thatn the fitness, I was so tense at time I just froze up and fell and that only made things worse, so now I: 1) Do a warm up on the beach for 10 mins 2) Sing(very badly, even the seals stay away) 3) Swear, curse and use every invective at the top of my voice 4) Do a lot of deep breathing. This is all possible because usually there is no one else using the water or in hearing distance. Relaxation is the key |
Posted By: bristolmustoskiff
Date Posted: 08 Jul 14 at 5:42pm
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well after having a 600 for 6 years and now in a musto i can tell you yes you need to be fit really other wise you tire quickly then make mistakes then fall in making you even more tired the key thing i found was to get your tacking and gybing drills right to minimise the capsizes i must be honest i was at the gym 4 times a week when i had the 600 but that wasn't just for sailing it would be beneficial to work on your core if you have a weak core you fell it in your back and shoulders as you over compensate so do say 20 super mans 1 min plank 30 sec left plank 30 sec right plank 20 crunches 20 full sit ups 1 min spoon 3 times a week but like i said the key is to get the drills i got some good vids on you tube just search rs600 sailing fyi the mustos even more physical  jay ------------- live hard race harder |
Posted By: dohertpk
Date Posted: 08 Jul 14 at 6:06pm
| Thanks for that Jay. I've actually watched your vids more than a few times to try and refine my tacking technique. They're very helpful so thanks for that! Quick question: in your videos you seem to employ slightly different technique through the tack in the MPS and 600. You seem to sit down more in the 600 (as do most in the 600 from the vids I've seen). Could I ask you to explain why? I've been trying to use the musto 'standing up' approach, simply because there are more musto vids than 600 vids by this point (and Sten's DVD is very convincing). My core and cardio are solid; I hit the gym three times a week and do two 14k runs a week...which makes the exhaustion in the 600 even more frustrating and baffling! |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 08 Jul 14 at 6:23pm
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The cockpit ergonomics and rack position make sitting down easier in the 600 and make it a little harder to stay on your feet. Also the boom is lower on the 600.
Back to fitness, I'm sailing my Grad a lot with my daughter which I have to say I find every bit as tiring as my 700. It really is all too do with keeping relaxed and keeping the boat going smoothly rather than overreacting to every little puff. |
Posted By: bristolmustoskiff
Date Posted: 08 Jul 14 at 8:54pm
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i am 6ft 4 so standing through a tack in a 600 is impossible and to be honest aint fast in the 600 the musto has a high boom so its easier to wire to wire in the musto um wow well that is strange maybe you have never experienced this type of tiredness in sailing terms can you maybe explain what you mean? jay ------------- live hard race harder |
Posted By: Jamie600
Date Posted: 08 Jul 14 at 10:45pm
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You need to work on muscular endurance, not outright strength though that will help, but the ability to stress the muscles repeatedly without fatigue. The shoulders, arms and upper back are the main areas to work on, plus core and legs for pushing out onto the wire. I did pull-ups, lat pull-downs, bent over rows, cable rows, shoulder presses and bicep curls, medium weights, 3 sets of 10-12 reps, aiming to fail at 12 (cannot do any more reps but still maintaining good form up to that point). Must point out I didn't do all that in one session... Earlier posts mention relaxing while sailing, in particular make sure you are not tensing your legs while half in, half out on the rack as it is extremely tiring to hold that pose. If the wind isn't strong enough to flat-wire, pull yourself higher on the wire so you can keep your legs straight.
------------- RS600 1001 |
Posted By: dohertpk
Date Posted: 09 Jul 14 at 8:00pm
| Yeh I've been aiming for volume rather than resistance with my weight training. Currently doing a pretty brutal programme of German Volume Training (10 sets of 10 reps), with a focus on compound lifts rather than isolation movements on top of my cardio. You're absolutely right about holding a half in, half out stance - it's absolute agony! Jay; in terms of the standing/sitting thing - I actually find it a bit easier to stand through the tack than sit on the racks. I have wide racks and I find I get 'stuck' sitting down if that makes sense. I'm a good deal shorter than you though at 5' 9". That said, I'm still trying to find out a tacking style that I can work in any wind and I haven't had her out in anything more than 15 knots for months. How far do you let the main out when you come through a tack in F4+? I've been letting her out to the shrouds to try and keep her flat/slightly heeled to windward. I can't really explain the exhaustion thing. The feeling reminds me of interval training actually. When I'm come off the wire and go through a tack, it's like I've just done a sprint and am in a recovery run. Same feeling of near nausea. I'd like to be able to sail her through the winter so trying to get everything dialled in before the bigger breezes return. |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 09 Jul 14 at 10:11pm
| The main should only be eased about 12" during the tacks unless you get nailed coming out of the tack. If you ease too much the boat will allow down making tacking really hard. |
Posted By: bristolmustoskiff
Date Posted: 10 Jul 14 at 3:15pm
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ummm well in a for about a arm full really then i uesd to come in drop the main then pick it back up on the way through again to be honest you wont ever get the tacking right really until you learn the sitting down technique i and people still use it in the musto jamie is small but never stood up in a tack the biat is to tippy really and to much much can go wrong which might be one reason for the physically tired feeling ------------- live hard race harder |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 10 Jul 14 at 3:28pm
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If a boat is making you feel physically nauseous, I'd recommend a) selling it and b) getting checked out by the doctor .... a 600 is demanding, but it's only a dinghy. ------------- |
Posted By: Jamie600
Date Posted: 10 Jul 14 at 6:25pm
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I was just thinking the same, you must be above average fitness/very fit to do the training you do, the boat should not be taking such a toll on you. I don't think many of the 600 fleet do/did any training, most were just casual weekend sailors, some overweight, some over 40. A fit young lad like you should be finding it a walk in the park! ------------- RS600 1001 |
Posted By: dohertpk
Date Posted: 10 Jul 14 at 8:22pm
| I guess I must still be trying to fight her in some way I haven't cottoned on to yet...not a fight I'm going to win. Back to Yoda YouTube I think... |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 10 Jul 14 at 8:47pm
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Firstly hats off to you for coconuts. I believe you said in OP that you've gone to this straight from quite a short time in a Laser? As others have said problem must be technique rather than fitness. I guess what you are doing is trying for a nice sail around the bay and not beating yourself doing back to back drills. If that's the case you ought to be aiming for smooth with minimal effort, smooth become fast with time anyway. People who know say you should tacking from sitting on the wings but you say as you are light you have the wings fully out so this is extra difficult for you. Does the 600 have the option of granny bars? Do the experts recommend their use? I think the 600 was marketed with a reefing system of a removable mast section. Is yours seized in solid? Could you sail it reefed with the wings in narrow position while you work out a technique and then put in the hours to get it solid? |
Posted By: dohertpk
Date Posted: 10 Jul 14 at 9:06pm
| Yeh went moved 'up' to the 600 after 8 months or so in a Laser. When I go for a sail I basically practise tacking endlessly until I run out of steam. Once out of steam, I then just enjoy myself on a few scary reaches and/or drop the kicker and have a sit. All the above are really good ideas but the racks on the 600 aren't adjustable, and I'm relatively sure there aren't any granny racks analogous to those on the 700. My mast is seized shut unfortunately so I'm in a position of 'go big or go home' as it stands. My tacks are ok to be honest; I'm getting better at coming in smoothly enough. I'm still struggling once on the new tack though. That said, once the wind climbs above 15 knots or so, I do get stuck in irons now and again. At the moment, I'm sitting as far forward on the gunnel, rather than the rack, to get the boat moving on the new tack again. Once the boat is moving I'm either standing or kneeling up to get back on to the wire. I think that's definitely my weak point at the minute. Thanks for all your input. |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 10 Jul 14 at 10:29pm
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This was always an issue with wide wings. On narrows the wings are in a perfect place to plonk your arse down as you tack, whereas wides required a bit more effort but it's doable. You don't need to be right up by the shrouds after a tack, but at least try to get in front of the mainsheet bridle. The bigger issue is to get across quickly to keep the power on. If you get across too early that's fine, a quick pull on the mainsheet should get you back up out of the water. Better to be too quick than too slow.
I'd strongly recommend sailing alongside another 600, it makes a massive difference. |
Posted By: dohertpk
Date Posted: 10 Jul 14 at 10:37pm
| That's exactly the problem! I can't count the number of times I've gone to sit down on the rack and landed my ass in that gap between the rack and the gunnel. Once there, there's no getting out either...I would dearly love to sail with another boat. I'm based in Dublin though, and, for better or worse, I have the only 600 in the Republic as far as I know. Hoping to get a GoPro in the near future though to share my misadventures in the Irish Sea. |