Jammer Question.
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11502
Printed Date: 14 Jul 25 at 9:32am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Jammer Question.
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: Jammer Question.
Date Posted: 03 Jun 14 at 11:22am
|
Tell me kind folk is there such a thing as a jamming cleat that works in both directions?
I've finally sorted my wing wang and it features a continuous rope which at the moment is cleated on both sides, it would be less time consuming if it could be cleated centrally if such a device existed. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Replies:
Posted By: Null
Date Posted: 03 Jun 14 at 11:30am
| Is it not cleated both sides as its actually two separate controls? cant see how a single line would work ? Perhaps draw us a picture of the current system Grumpf |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 03 Jun 14 at 11:39am
musto skiff kicker swivel jammer- led out to the racks?  ------------- |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 03 Jun 14 at 11:57am
|
My contender kicker goes through a Jammer like above then has a split tail hoping out to each wire. Pretty much the same as the musto. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: Delta
Date Posted: 03 Jun 14 at 12:10pm
The Jiffy Jib Jam Cleat circa 1960's as used by the Snipe sailors of that time. Just got to find an old Snipe sailor that kept the old gear. Always wondered why other classes never used it apart from the dangers to the crews undercarriage whilst fast tacking. ------------- http://www.stopthetraffik.org/help/declaration.aspx" rel="nofollow - http://www.stopthetraffik.org/help/declaration.aspx |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 03 Jun 14 at 12:14pm
|
Is the Alto wing-wang not like that of the 400, wherein you can haul and cleat it to either extreme position? In which case can you not just centre the pole using the line on one side, then tighten up the other line to keep the pole central. Mark the control lines if you want to do it without looking/consistently. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 03 Jun 14 at 12:33pm
|
In order to function you have to uncleat the downwind side then pull on the upwind side and cleat it off. You (I) then forget to cleat the downwind side, later on you gybe, pole collapses to leeward and is very difficult to haul back underway.
One do it all cleat would solve all that. Uncleat pull one way then cleat, next tack uncleat pull the other way. Actually come to think of it I may have thought of another flaw in the suggestion when needing the pole to be centred. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Null
Date Posted: 03 Jun 14 at 1:04pm
| I dont think you can do it Graeme, both lines need to be independent i think (without seeing the system i cant be sure) but in order for one cleat you need 1 line. |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 03 Jun 14 at 1:21pm
|
It could be done, and I have the germ of an idea, but need to check exactly how the Alto is currently set up to see if it can easily be adapted. I'll have a look next time I'm at the club. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: MattK
Date Posted: 03 Jun 14 at 2:05pm
| I sailed a swallow once which had a traveller that did what you want, the top of the traveller car could rock back and forth, so as the tension came on one side when you pulled the line it uncleated the other due to the angle change, but then settled flat so both were cleated when not in motion, i believe it was a custom job, but what you want is possible, i have seen it in reality |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 03 Jun 14 at 2:46pm
Erm, mine might not be like those Alto's at your club, I've moved things around that often I can't even remember where the wing wang control was, I think it was set up so the crew did it but I like to make the call wether to wing or wang, so the controls are now back at the helm. Hence why I want a single pull option one way or the other, no having to reach over and uncleat the downwind side. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 03 Jun 14 at 3:07pm
Could you not do something where the wing wang adjust is continuous at the cleating points so there is only 1 piece of rope to grab. Might make cleating/uncleating a little fiddly but with vertical cleats near the back of the case it might work (or 2 spinlock type cleats). ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Jon711
Date Posted: 03 Jun 14 at 3:21pm
|
Could something similar to the Merlin Rocket square hoop traveller arrangment work, where when you pull the mainsheet fall to windward on the track, it automatically uncleats the other side and cleats on the new side. Now that would give you an excuse to look at your favourite class of boat!!
Jon ------------- Blaze 711 |
Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 03 Jun 14 at 3:36pm
That sounds like a harken windward sheeting traveller. Standard off the shelf bit of kit. My solution to this problem would be something along the lines of a Merlin Rocket mainsheet hoop where they have that short traveller that is released by the mainsheet cleat swivel remotely pulling the traveller line out of the cleat. Cunning in its simplicity!
|
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 03 Jun 14 at 4:02pm
So long as you haven't changed the initial tackle arrangement directly acting on the pole my check at the club should not be in vain. I envisage you ending up with one line for port winging, one for starboard wanging and one (new) one for centering, which is what you want, right? ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 03 Jun 14 at 5:57pm
|
I need to get you pics of what I have which is a continuous rope linking both sides of the wingwang and acting on separate blocks on either side, currently also cleated on either side.
Merlinism is heresy.  ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 03 Jun 14 at 7:27pm
|
Sounds promising. Can you also check the length of rope movement on one side between fully winged and and fully wanged, please. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: robin34024
Date Posted: 03 Jun 14 at 10:15pm
|
Would it be possible to us one of these (http://www.pinbax.com/index.asp?selection=detailed&uid=35682&cg=7&mc=74&cct=4&sc=325) on a swivel in the middle of the boat or just a pair of swivel cleats? ------------- |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 03 Jun 14 at 11:24pm
|
You're a funny ol' stick iGRF. In order to function you have to uncleat the downwind side then pull on the upwind side and cleat it off. You (I) then forget to cleat the downwind side, later on you gybe, pole collapses to leeward and is very difficult to haul back underway. One do it all cleat would solve all that. Uncleat pull one way then cleat, next tack uncleat pull the other way. Actually come to think of it I may have thought of another flaw in the suggestion when needing the pole to be centred. So symmetric kites are totally yesterday and far too complicated then. Go classic Man, heave ho the ironmongery in the bow, trash the tackle on the wing wang. Spiro launch or mast hoop, all you need is a half hour lesson from a Merlin sailor and you'll be sorted.
 |
Posted By: iitick
Date Posted: 04 Jun 14 at 5:36am
| If this young gentleman struggles with winging his wang then pole uphauls and downhauls may be beyond him....not to mention adjusting his twinnies....... |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 04 Jun 14 at 8:24am
|
So much string, so little time.
|
Posted By: iitick
Date Posted: 04 Jun 14 at 9:03am
|
"I'm pulling all the right strings...but not necessarily in the right order". |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 04 Jun 14 at 9:52am
 The classics never die
|
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Jun 14 at 9:57am
Yes, but come one, how have you all managed to let yourself be convinced that £78.00 is a fair price to pay for such trivia? Look.. here's a picture 
I ask you.. all of you.. how stupid are you? Seventy eight pounds. Come on, if it's worth twenty five quid I'm a dutchman. Has no-one considered cleats direct dot com? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 04 Jun 14 at 10:04am
|
Yachting is an expensive game dear boy.... there's no point you pensioners coming on here moaning about it. It's not Pinnell & Bax's fault your generation hasn't prepared sufficiently for their retirement. Is there not a Bowls Club nearby? If not, can't you get your bus pass to take you to some 1970's civic prefab, there'll be a 'whist' club there for sure, every Tuesday morning. That will be fun for you whilst those of us of working age are busy wasting our time on the internet in the name of economic turnaround. ------------- |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Jun 14 at 10:11am
|
Here are other 'things' that are sold in smaller numbers by a structured market, clearly not 'doubling up'
http://www.ratrigs.com/product/windsurfing-base-plate-and-universal-joint-complete/" rel="nofollow - Complete UJ assembly 60 quid https://www.surf-sales.com/surfshop/shopexd.asp?id=3204" rel="nofollow - Kitesurfing driftshaft assembly inc cleat 49 quid http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/sram-x9-type-2-10-speed-rear-mech/rp-prod84891" rel="nofollow - Oh look a Sram X9 rear mech 69 quid This isn't just expense, it's what we in the trade technically call 'rip off the punter'. Look around you, see what else £78.00 buys ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 04 Jun 14 at 10:21am
A bottle of Laurent-Perrier Rose... to pour over the foredeck, a traditional libation to the sea gods before launching our new vessels. http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323494504578342402154679298" rel="nofollow - Boating has always been excessive, but then you know this
------------- |
Posted By: iitick
Date Posted: 04 Jun 14 at 10:29am
| Quite right. Fittings are a rip off and we all know it. A friend of mine wanted some special lights for his kitchen which where horrendously expensive. He has contacts for computer parts in China and managed to buy them for 1/10 th the price. What we need is a dirt-floor factory in a remote Chinese province with good internet connection. Better than that....how about a city devoted to knock off sailing, rope works, fittings...even fake AC boats for the kids. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Jun 14 at 12:00pm
|
How long will it be before we can just print them ourselves I wonder.
Honestly it's a diabolical liberty, I want that thing now, I want it even more now I can't have it, because I will not be had for a total mug. f**k.  ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 04 Jun 14 at 12:04pm
|
You'd still have to exercise skill and judgement every time you wanted to centre the pole exactly, however. Much easier to have an extra string that you simply pull mindlessly. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 04 Jun 14 at 12:30pm
|
grf
it is such an oddball fitting how many do you think they sell a year. 5, 10 no wonder it is expensive. ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: MerlinMags
Date Posted: 04 Jun 14 at 12:42pm
Thank you for a very hearty laugh, reading that. Reminds me, I must sort out the elastic takeaways on my Merlin this summer. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Jun 14 at 12:43pm
|
Skill and judgement? Fine got them, they cost nothing..
Low unit turnover? Hmm let me wonder why that might be, and how many more they might sell if it were priced correctly - no more than thirty quid in fact no, thirty bucks, the price they often are in the States Edit: At current exchange rates they sell for £52.56 in the states. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 04 Jun 14 at 1:58pm
But they take time and attention you'd be better spending on something else. Mags, I nearly said "mindlessly, like you do on the mainsheet", but decided to keep it straight. In any case, I'm sure Grumph is muttering "back hand pull, back hand push" as he plays the sheet - anything but mindless. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Jun 14 at 2:37pm
|
My 'skill and judgement' with regards the wing wang, involves extensive calculations in the seat of my divided butt pants, as to wether to sail high and fast, soak upper or middle low, or fully wang and dead run to keep pesky Hornets, Merlins & RS500's at bay in iffy conditions all capable of shafting me if I get it wrong which I am more than capable of.
As to mindlessly pulling on a string isn't that what everybody calls a kicker? The other mindless pulling on rope involves grabbing handfuls of main sheet at the boom end and yanking them really hard to make the damn thing unstick on a wave - that bit does at least produce visible results and is now thanks to Sir Ben fully legal at all times when I need it to be.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: BBSCFaithfull
Date Posted: 04 Jun 14 at 3:22pm
|
GRF, Have to say old boy that it is your choice to install a defunct and mainly pointless system on your craft. The hardware required will be expensive yes. If you're buying the best, you will pay for it. Given the amount of R&D Harken does as a brand and the superior quality of their products, no wonder it's a bit pricey. Just keep the pole in the middle and concentrate a bit more.... ;) ------------- Greatfully Sponsored By www.allgoodfun.com Int 14 GBR 1503!! |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 04 Jun 14 at 3:42pm
|
If my idea works it won't be pricey and you can avoid the ripped-off feeling and end up with a better system. Just get those pics and measurements. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 04 Jun 14 at 4:12pm
|
Now look, I know I am an idiot but.....when I try to post a picture I find it, then press 'upload'. The picture is there in preview but when I press ok, or whatever a box pops up telling me I should have used 'browse' button. I HAVE NO BROWSE BUTTON. There used to be a browse button a while ago but not now. What am I doing wrong, one of you genii must know?? I also cannot clear the image reference from the box.
|
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Jun 14 at 4:32pm
Nothing defunct and pointless about our system especially now it has turbo afterburner widgets fitted. And I'd like to know another way an asymmetric boat being pursued by symmetric boats in sub planing conditions is going to stay ahead. I'm sure you're going to tell me one - not. 
iiiiitick not sure if the mac is different but I uploaded that pic just by clicking the little tree with the arrow on it, having the pic file on my desktop and clicking choose file. It then ask you to wait a bit, and up it pops - iiiisimples.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 04 Jun 14 at 4:40pm
|
nice Karver block... although you were supposed to fit the meat pie to the Asbo and that to the V-Twin. ------------- |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Jun 14 at 4:44pm
I knew one day Frey bentos would come in handy, I had no idea what they were for, but they make the Wing.. Wang better than ever and confuse and confound the Merlinerati, they looked like that dog out of the Insurance ad last week, their little jowls dragging up the beach having landed some considerable time after the Alto of joy... ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 04 Jun 14 at 5:09pm
|
That is a huge custom chute. Presumably solves all the drop-problems that so seem to terrify Altoistas, at least on port gybe. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 04 Jun 14 at 5:17pm
| I give up. I think Y&Y does not like my photo type. Picture was of me cleating main with my teeth....I thought it was funny anyway. It can be seen on the Lightning 368 facebook page....should anyone be interested. I'm going sailing in the rain now. |
Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 04 Jun 14 at 7:46pm
| What does the harken double cleat solve that two cleats side by side can't do? We use one of those double ones on the quarter tonner for the mainsheet. It is far bigger than you need and that's why it costs so much more than you are used to paying. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Jun 14 at 9:03pm
No it doesn't solve the problem, what is needed and hence my post in the repair bit is a below the for stay chute entrance. Anyone who designs a boat with a bloody great wire thing in front of the bit where the spinnaker comes out, needs flogging to within an inch of their life as punishment. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Jun 14 at 9:05pm
It's something grown ups need son, go back to sleep, nothing for you to worry your little brain cell about.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 04 Jun 14 at 9:26pm
Who wants a jib tack stuck way up in the air either. There is a technique for dealing with the problem, but most Alto men don't seem to have evolved that far. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Jun 14 at 10:10pm
Well that's why they use wimmen to do the job up there in banjo country isn't it? Whilst y'all are playing with your sisters? As to the technique to hoist and drop a kite, it might surprise you to know after 8 years and countless hoists and drops which also require pole centering, we might just have worked out what to do.. A solution could be a redesign of the jib tack to accommodate a higher foot. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 05 Jun 14 at 7:39pm
So this is the current set up, the continuous blue rope with the two swivel jammers.
 ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 05 Jun 14 at 7:55pm
|
Strange they're not in the same position either side..
Move the port swivel jammer to the same position as the starboard one and then put a center one in it's place which tensions both lines together. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 05 Jun 14 at 8:16pm
|
I'm trying to do away with one, not add another.
They're where they are because there were already holes there, not being OCD, I don't need things to be symmetrical, in fact if they were symmetrical I'd move one jet to piss off OCD people on the verge of the autistic spectrum, that crew for me and don't enjoy the delights of chaos theory. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 05 Jun 14 at 11:41pm
|
If you want to wing it to port, wang it to starboard and centre it then you will need three cleats. I’d have preferred simple cleats with pivotally-mounted (or just tied on) blocks behind them, though: simply grab the line and pull to wing, wang or centre. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Jun 14 at 9:43am
|
Well in order for it to move obviously everything has to be uncleated, it then moves, then you cleat the upwind side, because as you know even the time spent doing this could cost you a place or your head isn't where it should be out of the boat looking for whatever opportunity is about to present itself.
Then in a perfect world, you uncleat, let the wind do it's work and drop the pole to the leeward side before the gybe and you're tee'd up with the wing already fully wanged. But I'm sure you're also aware of the chaos that can be ensuing in the heat of it mark rounding if it's a bit crowded. So a one cleat system would be such a bonus with one less thing to worry about, the cleat is either on or off and you don't have to worry about the other cleat being prepped. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 06 Jun 14 at 11:01am
|
OK, take your point.
How does -just the two existing cleats -auto-cleating from wing to wang sound? Downside: it involves ropes led to the stern that you can trip over. One line to pull for centring may also be possible, but depends for viability on how far the lines must run through the cleats from winged to winged, and some pretty fine bending of those cleat bases. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Jun 14 at 11:25am
I'm open to any suggestion and now I'm intrigued by the auto cleating idea, plenty of room in the back not much clutter going on there like up front.. just the spinnaker halyard routed out of the way. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 06 Jun 14 at 11:47am
| Why not have the two cleats side by side 4"apart with a continuous loop of rope marked in the middle. One hand, pull back with emphasis to left or right so that one cleat cleats and the other releases. Pull straight back with mark in the middle and cleat both for centre. Whats wrong with that...and no extra expense. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 06 Jun 14 at 11:59am
That is what I meant..... ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 06 Jun 14 at 1:06pm
|
Grumph has pretty much answered that one: see his reply to my post of 03 Jun 14 at 12:14pm ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |