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Second hand prices over the decades

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11422
Printed Date: 14 Jul 25 at 6:40am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Second hand prices over the decades
Posted By: Chris 249
Subject: Second hand prices over the decades
Date Posted: 07 Apr 14 at 5:57am
A few days ago there were some comments about how reducing the second-hand value of racing boats would encourage more sailors into the sport. By chance today I found a copy of a 1994 Y&Y containing a very interesting article by Christopher Yardley in which he compared the prices of second-hand boats over the years, starting in the '60s.

Yardley found that until about 1982, there were very few really "cheap" boats even second-hand. For example in the mid '60s there was very little difference (too small to see on his graph) between the price that was being asked between various second-hand Herons and Mirrors; even when a new Heron was 140 quid the second-hand ones were consistently about 80, and there were very few such boats that were very cheap. 

The price of used boats dropped very slowly in this period; Ent 7034 was advertised for 155 pounds while the much older 948 was still asking 110. Yardley notes that "this trend was repeated in all the classes with the minimum price remaining, in real terms, very high, even when the boat was ten or more years old in the case of Fireflies, GP Fourteens and National Twelves".

He does note that old 14s were cheap, with a pre-war boat available for as little as 50 quid or about half the cost of a five year old Heron. Even the 50 pounds would have been four weeks salary for a bank clerk. A TV cost about 80 pounds, for comparison.

Yardley says that by '76 there was a discernible increase in the range of second-hand prices. By '82 the gap between an expensive used boat and a cheap used boat was opening further; however by this time Lasers that had sold new for 418 pounds in 1976 were actually worth up to 675 second-hand!

By 1995 when the article was written the range of prices was at its widest. A new boat took as long to earn as it had in the '60s but a cheap old boat had become much cheaper in real terms than in earlier decades. Many boats had become half as expensive in real terms as they used to be. There is an issue here in that the age gap in the used boat fleet must also have opened and Yardley does not correct for this.

Interestingly;

1 - the gap between new boat and used boat prices was at its smallest when the sport was growing fast, before the mid '70s.

2 - by the mid '70s, when Y&Y's national attendance table showed that the dinghy boom had peaked, there was a much wider range in prices of second-hand boats.

3- in '92, a pretty quiet year for dinghy sailing as far as I recall, the gap was even bigger and used boats were available very cheaply.

Therefore it seems that there is no evidence that reducing second-hand prices gets more people out there racing. If that was the case, dinghy sailing would not have boomed in the '60s (when the differentials between new boats, good used boats and cheap used boats were very low) and it would have been booming from the mid '70s all the way to the mid '90s.

As Yardley opines, it seems that reduced demand for older boats has reduced their value. Second hand price is therefore driven by demand rather than driving it, and therefore reducing the competitiveness of existing boats in order to drop their price may not increase demand, but merely impoverish owners and reduce the stock of competitive craft.













Replies:
Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 07 Apr 14 at 7:13am
Not sure I fully understand the last paragraph. "Reducing the competitiveness of existing boats to drop their price"? What does that mean?


Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 07 Apr 14 at 7:15am
Christ for you this is a fairly simplistic way of looking at it.  The reason used boat stocks and prices have fluctuated is simple supply and demand.  The market dictates the price, as something is only worth what the buyer is willing to pay.  My point about used boat prices was that it is not healthy for the sport that my laser bought nearly new in 1992 from a dealer is now worth the same if not more than I paid for it.  Not an isolated example either, the topper I had before the laser is probably still worth what I paid for it then.  If we allow for inflation also, it's gone up further in value!  This is not an aspiring classic either it's the ford escort of the dinghy world.....the laser!

Now some would argue that the residual values of dinghies is a positive as it brings the cost of sailing down, however if the initial purchase price remains high it alienates the very early stages of the market.  Like the housing market in the uk with no first time buyers, I believe this is already starting to happen.  Most if not all dinghy purchases will involve some kind of purchase chain, people have to sell old do boat to part fund new.  Trouble is used boat sails seem to of slowed down in some cases.  Which has a domino effect.  

I must confess given my job I find the used dinghy market really interesting, I'm not saying very boat needs to be cheaper, I just think some form of depreciation curve would make entry into the dinghy market much easier for new starters.


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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 07 Apr 14 at 7:59am
Originally posted by Ruscoe

Christ for you this is a fairly simplistic way of looking at it.  The reason used boat stocks and prices have fluctuated is simple supply and demand.  The market dictates the price, as something is only worth what the buyer is willing to pay.  My point about used boat prices was that it is not healthy for the sport that my laser bought nearly new in 1992 from a dealer is now worth the same if not more than I paid for it.  Not an isolated example either, the topper I had before the laser is probably still worth what I paid for it then.  If we allow for inflation also, it's gone up further in value!  This is not an aspiring classic either it's the ford escort of the dinghy world.....the laser!

Now some would argue that the residual values of dinghies is a positive as it brings the cost of sailing down, however if the initial purchase price remains high it alienates the very early stages of the market.  Like the housing market in the uk with no first time buyers, I believe this is already starting to happen.  Most if not all dinghy purchases will involve some kind of purchase chain, people have to sell old do boat to part fund new.  Trouble is used boat sails seem to of slowed down in some cases.  Which has a domino effect.  

I must confess given my job I find the used dinghy market really interesting, I'm not saying very boat needs to be cheaper, I just think some form of depreciation curve would make entry into the dinghy market much easier for new starters.

Sure, I understand the point and the mechanics that you see applying. I think the way you are looking at it is perfectly logical and reasonable. In one class I sail, where old boats are extremely competitive, others have made the same case that you have made.

However, on the other hand there are other ways of looking at the same issue that are also perfectly logical and reasonable!  The info in the Y&Y article could perhaps be interpreted to back up each of the opposing views.  I just sketched a graph of the number of boats that did nationals on top of the graph showing the prices of second-hand dinghy sails and they seem to show no correlation to each other! 

My 2c worth is that like many things in dinghy sailing, there are so many factors involved that predictions become incredibly hard to make, and cause and effect become incredibly hard to discern a lot of the time. This discussion lead me to recall a long chat I had with Rod Johnstone of J Boats, where we talked about the varying success of his various classes, from the failure of the J/30 and J/36 to the success of the 35 and 105. Rod seemed to have a very pragmatic view of classes in some ways - they could become a success because of things like the views of north-eastern USA establishment sailors to a particular tax threshold and then suddenly take off, and equally the best laid plans could collapse. J Boats just seem to owe a lot of their success to the fact that they learn from the way the market reacts and then react to it, whereas many other builders seem to stick to their beliefs and just blame the market for getting it wrong. The way that they re-did the J/30 and J/36 moulds into the J/29 and J/35 seem to be classic examples of this tactic of listening to the market, admitting a mistake and them reacting quickly. 

Maybe this is one of those many areas where different approaches work at different times and places. I suppose in the end I just wish we had there were more people doing research in the sport instead of relying on hype as happens all too often, judging from remarks made by various people such as ISAF heads.




Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 07 Apr 14 at 8:06am
You have, and probably always will be, able to pick up a competitive boat in some classes for very reasonable money.

Take the Laser that we all love (to hate).

You can pick up a reasonable shape older boat that is perfectly suitable for racing at club level for around £500-£600. You might need to give it a bit of a clean up and maybe put a few quids worth of rope on it but it is possible.

This case does not hold for many other classes though. There have been 'improvements' made to a lot of classes which have outclassed the older 'entry level' boats. Some classes where this has happened that I know of are:

Solo
Fireball (admittedly this was some time ago)
Phantom

Other classes just seem to hold their value well:

Blaze
RS300

This is down to a lack of supply in the case of the RS300 and because the older boats remain competitive in the case of the Blaze.

It is horses for courses though.

If you were coming in to sailing and wanted to give it a try are you really likely to go and spend several thousand pounds of your hard earned on a sport you might not decide to stick with? I don't know many people who would.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 07 Apr 14 at 8:43am
Originally posted by Ruscoe

Most if not all dinghy purchases will involve some kind of purchase chain

I think I need to be convinced about that. Sure few people want (or are allowed) to have more than one boat, but I don't see any mechanism where people are rushing to get any other boat because they've sold the old one and can't be without one for a few weeks, or because the old one hasn't sold and they can't pay for the new one at all until something happens. If you look at that poll bootscooter did, most people bought boats with savings. Admittedly what the poll doesn't tell us is how important it was to sell the old boat to pay for the new one, but I'm pretty confident its not like houses where its a major problem for everyone if the chain stutters.


Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 07 Apr 14 at 9:23am
I'm fairly confident Jim, that if someone is buying a new boat then part of the funding will be from the proceeds of their previous boats sale.  Sure they could borrow the money (out of savings or wherever) however many will be reliant on their old boat selling in order to bridge some of the gap.

That poll was very subjective as any poll.  It's hard to quantify as there is no proper research into the used dinghy market, so all we can do is make assumptions.


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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 07 Apr 14 at 9:48am
Having run a Facebook group with Russ for over a year now facilitating second hand dinghy sales, I'd say it's quite common for folks to post things like 'interested but need to sell my ******  first' etc.

From a personal point of view, whilst I could afford to bridge new boat purchases from savings etc, I would find that concept very uncomfortable.  I would always sell first, buy later.  Just the way I do things... weird really, there's been a couple of times when I wish I could have reversed the clock!

I'm not convinced this creates much of a 'chain' though - unlike housing you can be without a boat for a few weeks and no harm will come to you.  Crewing for a mate or go for a bike ride instead is quite common.  And for those who can stomach the stigma, there always the club Lasers or some generic rotomoulded tub....  Again I've heard the term, 'between boats currently' before; it's where I'm at at the mo- a conscious decision around how much winter dinghy sailing I'd realistically want to do vs depreciation, insurance and boat park costs.  

I've never been desperate enough to buy one specific boat to worry about it being sold to someone else- another one from the same class will always come along - I guess if I were into more individual classes then this might be more of a concern.  I'm fairly fatalistic about boats though- one of things I miss with windsurfing is that boards lack the mystique and superstition of a boat.  Anyone who thinks a boat is just a lump of plastic/wood lacks imagination in my opinion.  They all have a personality, some even have a good sense of humour but there's definitely a relationship between a man (or woman) and her boat.... much to the concerns of the non-sailing, long suffering other halves out there. 



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Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 07 Apr 14 at 10:03am
I tend to just buy the boat....

But there are also beginners out there who buy boats and kick the chain off, especially at this time of year.  There aren't many who go out and splash out on a mega bucks boat, but there are a few.

All my boats are mean and evil bast*rds apart from the 2k. 

I came dangerously close to buying a solo over the weekend, but it had just that minute been sold.  Even pre 1985 (cvrda cut off year) sell like hot cakes if they are decent, in fact even if they're not.  And the pretty ones are much more expensive than their counterparts in other classes, age wise. 

Supply and demand.



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the same, but different...



Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 07 Apr 14 at 11:15am
In the late 80's, I bought a Minisail for £250. In the late 90's, I bought one for 200. In the late 00', I bought one for £100. I have more recently been given on.

So yes, 2ndhand Minisails have become more affordable, as the pool of boats has got older, but with thousands built there is huge supply and little demand.

On the other hand, I bought the Lightning for £300 5 years ago, and now boats in similar condition are being sold for £600, as the class has become more desireable, but as fewer than 400 boats have been built, there aren't as many secondhand ones around. Last season, we were often in the position of not having any on the books. Because of (I think) the closure of a sailing club, we currently have a few. Does that drive the price down, or encourage people to look at the Lightning, knowing that there are boats available, and so increase demand?




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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 07 Apr 14 at 11:23am
We were searching for a Lightning for ages before one came up and Richard will tell you we bought it without seeing it because we were fed up of looking.  We will probably do quite well out of selling it now there is a new one on its way.

I recently bought a complete lowrider for £75, cheapest yet, but probably a fair price as I'm putting a fair bit of work into it.



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the same, but different...



Posted By: timeonthewater
Date Posted: 07 Apr 14 at 9:10pm
Sorry James..
all my boards have personalities..you just have to engage and empathise bit harder. 

 Sure the boats have bigger personalities..that's only because my boards have need issues and only come out of the bags when required. Whereas the dinghies sit looking resplendent on their launch trolleys


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Too many toys..not enough time


Posted By: timeonthewater
Date Posted: 07 Apr 14 at 9:16pm
There is more of a supply and demand and ease of purchase relationship, driving prices.  

After most of the reasonably-priced £2.5 k 29ers left the country on a one man mission to populate the Baltic states.  There suddenly wasn't a good cheap 29er to be had in the UK, resulting in a 2nd hand price explosion as the demand was there and no boats.  Consequently you could add on a grand to your selling price. Thanks Mr Hall for that 


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Too many toys..not enough time


Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 07 Apr 14 at 10:31pm
Originally posted by timeonthewater

Sorry James..[---]all my boards have personalities..you just have to engage and empathise bit harder. 


Poppycock... They have about as much personality as a mail order bride... Given that 95% of the world's windsurfing boards are made in the same factory in Thailand I guess that's not too bloody surprising ;-)

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Posted By: Clive Evans
Date Posted: 07 Apr 14 at 11:08pm
Yes the cobra factory is impressive (I've been 4 times!) and when you see how little work goes into each board you'd baulk at buying one for what they cost!

Ironically most mail order brides cone from there too!


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Spiral 816


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 07 Apr 14 at 11:49pm
Originally posted by yellowwelly

one of things I miss with windsurfing is that boards lack the mystique and superstition of a boat.  


I read the above quote to my boards this morning. I could see quivers of indignation run from their cute little noses right down to the tips of their fins. "Soul-less? Us? Indeed!!" they scoffed.




Posted By: timeonthewater
Date Posted: 08 Apr 14 at 2:09pm
Cockypop...if you have a fleet of soulless free ride boards that's your thing..mine are hand-picked esoteric rare boards of beauty, that are cherished and fettles just as as my boats are





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Too many toys..not enough time


Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 08 Apr 14 at 2:12pm
Originally posted by timeonthewater

Cockypop...if you have a fleet of soulless free ride boards that's your thing..mine are hand-picked esoteric rare boards of beauty, that are cherished and fettles just as as my boats are

one superX board, one FSW and one quad finned wave riding machine..... the FSW has some personality, it was a custom made one and I cherish that board more than any others; the rest have been generic mail order bride material- some good for riding, some less so; but all boring dinner companions.    




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Posted By: Er-Indoors
Date Posted: 08 Apr 14 at 5:09pm
Originally posted by winging it


I recently bought a complete lowrider for £75, cheapest yet,

No I think you have bought cheaper?!  Didn't you get that Phantom for 99p.....And that doesn't include the boats that people think you can "give a good home to" Wink


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Lightning 418 "Octarine"


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Apr 14 at 6:53pm
I've been given several boats, and turned down others. They are generally worth less than what you pay for them...

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Sheetpuller
Date Posted: 08 Apr 14 at 6:58pm
One thing to bear in mind is that in the 60s many people built their own boats, and many of the boats around at that time were designed to be built from flat sheets of ply; GP14, Graduates, Enterprises for example. That kept the cost down for a lot of people. Sadly few these days have either the skill or inclination to build their own; it's got to be plastic, moulded on a production line and instantly available.

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I'm not arguing. I'm explaining why I'm right.

Merlin Rocket 3545 - 'Smooth Operator'

Sprint 15 1342 - 'Still Crazy'



Posted By: iitick
Date Posted: 08 Apr 14 at 6:58pm
We got a Magnum 8 Moth in sailing condition for £100. A lightning for £50, a laser 2 for £20....and a few others. I also have refused boats....at least two GP's and a Shearwater.


Posted By: drifter
Date Posted: 08 Apr 14 at 8:21pm
Yes indeed re values of useless boats. Our local Council tip will take £80 off you to dispose of a glassfibre boat.

In the sixties, people were time-rich and cash-poor, so could build boats in their spare time. Now hardly anyone has the time. And even if I did, it would be slow...


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Stewart


Posted By: timeonthewater
Date Posted: 08 Apr 14 at 9:30pm
i've picked up barn-find Merlins for as little as £400 quid,  stacked with equipment.  Re epoxy, 2 pack varnish, re string with cheap dyneema, spot of bimbling and tidy and moved them on for £2K onto the buoyant secondhand mid 3400 price point.
you just have to have the merlin design knowledge, knowing what design will sell and what is a huge woodworking mission of doom


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Too many toys..not enough time


Posted By: RichTea
Date Posted: 08 Apr 14 at 9:32pm
If you want free cheap boats take on the role of dinghy park coordinator. 

As for the lightning, that sold quickly thanks to a FB page. It needed work but to me it's got someone on the water, enjoyed the boat and decided to purchase another....at least it's not pink!


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RS200


Posted By: iitick
Date Posted: 09 Apr 14 at 7:22am
I bought a total shed Smokers Satisfaction Merlin a few years ago for £100. I restored it, well not restored as such but it looked smart. I sailed it a couple of times and it went ok in spite of being 50% car filler. The 'Boy', as he was then raced it with his Sister as crew, this was before she discovered Mulberry and Christian Laboutan, and won a three races beating a much later Merlin.

I had fun with that boat because I never got bogged down in it's repair, I just got it going and looking good. By pure chance the son of the original owner heard of it and bought it back which was a lovelly end to the story.


Posted By: Er-Indoors
Date Posted: 09 Apr 14 at 9:05am
Originally posted by RichTea

If you want free cheap boats take on the role of dinghy park coordinator. 

As for the lightning, that sold quickly thanks to a FB page. It needed work but to me it's got someone on the water, enjoyed the boat and decided to purchase another....at least it's not pink!

Indeed, and I learnt a lot fixing stuff that I would never have done with a new boat.  Slot gasket, using epoxy and gelcoat, fitting a bung, fitting a hatch, rudder up and downhauls, adding strops, telltales, blocks, replacing slugs, fitting mainsheet ratchet block, how to get the best out of the rope controls, using my ergonomics degree (!), and learning to sail without worrying about scratching it.  Winging it taught me everything I know....
Priceless.  For everything else, like a new boat, there's Mastercard!

However it's also really exciting to get photos from John Claridge showing my new purple Lightning being built and personal service from Banks offering me different coloured sail numbers! Big smile


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Lightning 418 "Octarine"


Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 09 Apr 14 at 9:24am
It's 'Louboutin' John.... and your mistake was clearly not planning ahead by painting the undersides in bright red whist offering a keen contrast with an alligator leather effect topside in taupe.  

A studded matt black leather plimsoll line would have sealed it... but I guess the 'Boy' might have then had issues sailing it, especially in matching sailing gear.  


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Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 09 Apr 14 at 10:02am
Originally posted by iitick

By pure chance the son of the original owner heard of it and bought it back which was a lovelly end to the story.


When I was returning to dinghy sailing in '99 the GP my father built in '74 or '75 was for sale. Despite several years sailing it and some good memories, I decided against going to see it. a) might have been very painful Cry  b) I didn't want to be tempted into buying it - the damn thing was at least 20lbs overweight when brand spanking new! Embarrassed


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Nick
D-Zero 316



Posted By: iitick
Date Posted: 09 Apr 14 at 10:23am
Originally posted by yellowwelly

It's 'Louboutin' John.... and your mistake was clearly not planning ahead by painting the undersides in bright red whist offering a keen contrast with an alligator leather effect topside in taupe.  

A studded matt black leather plimsoll line would have sealed it... but I guess the 'Boy' might have then had issues sailing it, especially in matching sailing gear.  

Look pal.......I could have checked the spelling but I thought no one would notice! Evidently Mrs. Welly is very expensive to keep! Ones children grow into a different sphere and some of them wear red soles whilst others become ar****s. No, my four children are all brilliant and have reached an age where they can be financially exploited. I need to find a new name for 'the boy' as he is now 27 owns a home and is in management.


Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 09 Apr 14 at 10:34am
Originally posted by iitick

Evidently Mrs. Welly is very expensive to keep! 

no more so than her husband....

check out http://eu.christianlouboutin.com/uk_en/shop/men/yacht-spikes-calf-2.html" rel="nofollow - these beauties .... they'd look super good down the sailing club on 'hotdog night'.  

Only £695... bargain. 



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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 09 Apr 14 at 11:51am
"The Boy" is 27 now? I've owned Lightnings for a while, then... I'm sure he was just out of college.

I feel old again.


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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686



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