Racing Rules: Facts Found and Witness evidence ignored

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Facts Found and Witness evidence ignored

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11397
Printed Date: 27 Jun 25 at 8:35am
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Topic: Facts Found and Witness evidence ignored

Posted By: jeffers
Subject: Facts Found and Witness evidence ignored
Date Posted: 17 Mar 14 at 9:17am

I was involved in an incident over the weekend which went to protest after arbitration failed.

I had a witness who clearly corroborated the facts as I had stated them in arbitration but the PC decided to ignore that evidence in the full hearing stating they did not need to call the witness again as they had already heard his evidence.

The facts found were accurate aside from the key bit of evidence which related to the amount of time required to respond to a luff. My witness clearly stated that he felt there was sufficient time given (which corroborated my statement) but the PC stated there was insufficient evidence either way and dismissed the protest.

I have asked for the hearing to be reopened so my witness can be formally heard.

Were the PC in error for not calling the witness formally in the full hearing?

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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74

Replies:

Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 17 Mar 14 at 10:32am

Rule 63.6 Taking Evidence and Finding Facts
The protest committee shall take the evidence of the parties present at the hearing and of their witnesses and other evidence it considers necessary. A member of the protest committee who saw the incident shall, while the parties are present, state that fact and may give evidence. A party present at the hearing may question any person who gives evidence. The committee shall then find the facts and base its decision on them.

Appendix M, rule M3.2 Take the evidence (rule 63.6).
...
● Allow anyone, including a boat’s crew, to give evidence. It is the party who normally decides which witnesses to call, although the protest committee may also call witnesses (rule 63.6). The question asked by a party ‘Would you like to hear N?’ is best answered by ‘It is your choice.’

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 Mar 14 at 10:52am

Pragmatically speaking my feeling is that if they had already heard the evidence, albeit not in the formal hearing, and not been convinced by it, then it seems unlikely that they'll change their minds if, as I believe is your right, the hearing is reopened.

Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 17 Mar 14 at 11:29am

Originally posted by JimC

Pragmatically speaking my feeling is that if they had already heard the evidence, albeit not in the formal hearing, and not been convinced by it, then it seems unlikely that they'll change their minds if, as I believe is your right, the hearing is reopened.

The thing was in arbitration they advised the other party they would get a 20% penalty (so indicated they would rule in my favour). The other party refused this and insisted on a full hearing.

They then added someone else to the PC who had not heard the witness evidence first hand.

I was pretty sure that they had not followed procedure at the time but did not have a rule book to hand.

As it is the request to re-open has been granted and a hearing will be arranged once all parties are available.

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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74

Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 17 Mar 14 at 11:57am

How many were buzzing around in the arbitration?

It's supposed to be one arbitrator and two parties.

Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 17 Mar 14 at 2:02pm

That is what happened. The arbitrator then became chair of the PC and called in another person to sit on the PC.

He decided that as he had heard the witnessed evidence himself he could speak for the witness in the hearing.

I did have to remind him several times over things the witness clearly said and he agreed the witness had said that.

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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74

Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 17 Mar 14 at 7:37pm

The whole thing was entirely random and badly set up, plus your PC had someone on it with too little racing experience. You did the right thing in asking for it to be reheard.

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the same, but different...

Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 17 Mar 14 at 8:26pm

Just as well they didn't hear your witness - so you have clear grounds for a re-hearing! I don't mind losing a protest (much) I do mind when the procedure is poor and the committee mess it up.

Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 17 Mar 14 at 9:05pm

How come there was a witness in an arbitration hearing?

Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 17 Mar 14 at 9:11pm

Random and badly set up......

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the same, but different...

Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 18 Mar 14 at 10:05am

I agree, I shall know better for next time! I really need to get a copy of the rules and keep it in my sailing bag as the club copy was missing in action!

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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74

Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 18 Mar 14 at 11:26am

Just download them onto your phone.

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/ISAFRRS20132016Final-[13376].pdf

Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Mar 14 at 11:28am

Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Just download them onto your phone.

We have a club laptop and a copy of the rules (and maybe even more important the casebook) live on that.

Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 18 Mar 14 at 11:55am

Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Just download them onto your phone.

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/ISAFRRS20132016Final-[13376].pdf

Good idea......

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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74

Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 18 Mar 14 at 11:57am

The Island Sailing Club in Cowes has a copy on the wall of the gents. Gives you something to read when staring at the wall..

Posted By: Time Lord
Date Posted: 18 Mar 14 at 12:12pm

Much prefer the wall decoration in the gents of one of our local pubs - copies of the Pirelli calander from its heyday. Makes far better 'reading' than the Racing Rules of Sailing!

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Merlin Rocket 3609

Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 18 Mar 14 at 12:59pm

Originally posted by jeffers

I agree, I shall know better for next time! I really need to get a copy of the rules and keep it in my sailing bag as the club copy was missing in action!

Sheesh.

All you need for a protest committee is three fair minded sailors and a rules book.

Looks like the club scored less than 2 out of 4.

Appendix M is your friend.

The RYA provides an http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/Racing/RacingInformation/Best%20practices%20and%20guidance/RYA%20Guidance%20-%20Recommendations%20for%20Protest%20Committees.pdf" rel="nofollow - expanded version

Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 18 Mar 14 at 3:17pm

If someone has nicked the rules book again I shall be less than impressed. No one protests enough and people get unreasonably emotional about it, taking it too personally. We had a club rules adviser course last year, but it hasn't helped much which is a pity.

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the same, but different...

Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 18 Mar 14 at 4:16pm

Need any help with the appeal?

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Gordon

Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 18 Mar 14 at 4:30pm

Thanks for the offer Gordon, I have sent you a PM.

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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74

Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 18 Mar 14 at 6:03pm

Originally posted by winging it

If someone has nicked the rules book again I shall be less than impressed.

Sounds like it needs to be tied down. Like at Cowes week.