Class Development Survey
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11395
Printed Date: 12 Jul 25 at 6:40pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Class Development Survey
Posted By: JimC
Subject: Class Development Survey
Date Posted: 13 Mar 14 at 2:03pm
http://ccgi.champwilde.force9.co.uk/techsurvey.php" rel="nofollow - Class development Survey
I'm interested in the uptake of new technologies into the UK dinghy scene. In particular I want to look at the uptake of carbon masts, laminate sails and epoxy/foam sandwich hulls. I've formed a theory that one or more of these technologies (or possibly a combination of more than one) may have been as radical a change as the change from cotton to terylene sails was back in the 1958/61 period, but because the changeover has been much more gradual it has been less obvious. The change to terylene sails in the 60s resulted in something like a 4% performance increase across the whole range of classes.
How to Complete it and Who
The challenge is finding out which classes adopted which technologies when. I'd like as many people as possible to fill in this survey for classes they know about. Even partial answers would be useful, and as many as possible, so I can amalgamate the results. Its suprisingly difficult to remember exactly when these changes occurred so as many opinions as possible are encouraged. This seems to me exactly the sort of exercise where 'crowd sourcing' is useful so the more the merrier.
Because this is a crowdsourcing exercise please feel very free to post the link anywhere that UK dinghy sailors will see it. Twitter, Facebook, whatever, the more the merrier...
There's more information about how and why I'm doing this on the page. http://ccgi.champwilde.force9.co.uk/techsurvey.php" rel="nofollow - Here's the link again.
|
Replies:
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 13 Mar 14 at 3:17pm
|
I don't understand your survey ... these issues only apply to a handful of classes ...
I don't follow the logic / layout of your script ... how is a Laser 2000 sailor meant to complete this?
Doesn't this only apply to a few restricted / development classes and a few one designs?
|
Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 13 Mar 14 at 4:14pm
|
It certainly doesn't apply to manufacturers boats, like the 2000.
I didn't understand the last bit.
|
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 13 Mar 14 at 4:14pm
|
There aren't that many long established classes which haven't brought in at least one of carbon masts, laminate sails and epoxy/foam hulls. But yes, there are classes which would doubtless fill in all fields n/a. But *I* don't know for sure which ones - or at least not all of them.
|
Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 13 Mar 14 at 4:53pm
My boat isn't even on there :-(
-------------
Needs to sail more...
|
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 13 Mar 14 at 5:18pm
Originally posted by tgruitt
My boat isn't even on there :-( |
You need to sail more and get some returns in...
|
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 13 Mar 14 at 5:29pm
|
Most SMODs have not changed ... why list all those Lasers?
|
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 13 Mar 14 at 5:50pm
I'm thinking that a class member who knows informing Jim that nothing has changed is just as important as reporting what has changed.
-------------
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
|
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 14 Mar 14 at 7:58am
Originally posted by 2547
Most SMODs have not changed ... why list all those Lasers? |
I disagree, there have been a few changes to Laser over the years.
Carbon tillers and extensions
Original rigging (3:1 kicker) Updated rigging allowing turning points but not blocks XD style rigging (there is also a new sail design and carbon top section waiting in the wings)
-------------
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
|
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 14 Mar 14 at 8:02am
|
Good survey Jim and easy enough to follow.
Are you going to post your findings once you have a load of data?
-------------
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
|
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 14 Mar 14 at 8:28am
Originally posted by jeffers
Originally posted by 2547
Most SMODs have not changed ... why list all those Lasers? |
I disagree, there have been a few changes to Laser over the years.
Carbon tillers and extensions
Original rigging (3:1 kicker) Updated rigging allowing turning points but not blocks XD style rigging (there is also a new sail design and carbon top section waiting in the wings) |
Are you serious? Do you really think carbon tillers and extensions would make a laser faster?
The xd kit probably did round the course but only very marginal.
|
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 14 Mar 14 at 8:35am
The XD kit has meant that smaller people can sail the boat better in stronger winds, so as an average, the boat will have got faster, surely?
There have been various sail changes over the years, too, some of which have made the sails more durable. Assuming in many cases people buy a new sail when they can afford one, there will have been fewer shagged out sails being used for racing.
Now, I'm sure these changes have been minor compared to what has happened to some other classes, but knowing when the changes came in can still help put the picture together of what happened when in the UK dinghy scene.
-------------
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
|
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 14 Mar 14 at 9:02am
I wonder how the advent of cheaper 'training or replica' sails has effected the Lasers speed, I know my main Laser adversary is faster than he was (or I've become slower) thanks to a new replica sail.
-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website
|
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Mar 14 at 9:17am
Originally posted by jeffers
Good survey Jim and easy enough to follow.Are you going to post your findings once you have a load of data? |
If I come up with anything useful then I'll make sure its made available in one way or another. If there's something striking then you'll hear about it sooner rather than later.
|
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 14 Mar 14 at 9:55am
Originally posted by 2547
Are you serious? Do you really think carbon tillers and extensions would make a laser faster?
The xd kit probably did round the course but only very marginal. |
Yes because you can get more traveller tension which means you have better control of the leech...so yes I do think that makes a difference (Jon Emmett lurks on this forum, I am sure he would agree).
The XD kit makes the boat much easier to sail (s0 us mere mortals can get it round the course better) but the potential speed is still the same (as proved by 1 Robert Scheidt who used the 'classic' style controls until he moved to the Star).
-------------
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
|
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 14 Mar 14 at 9:56am
Originally posted by iGRF
I wonder how the advent of cheaper 'training or replica' sails has effected the Lasers speed, I know my main Laser adversary is faster than he was (or I've become slower) thanks to a new replica sail. |
Possibly just because he has a new sail. it makes a huge difference to the Laser I find (over my many years of sailing them).
-------------
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
|
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 14 Mar 14 at 11:18am
|
The changes to the Laser will be worth at most 2-3 PY points ...
The development in techniques to make the boat go faster will probably be worth far more ...
The changes in downwind style over the last 40 years will make far more difference than a carbon tiller ...
|
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 14 Mar 14 at 12:17pm
|
It still makes a different, cumulatively the boat is a touch faster and the control made it easier to sail.
Conversely the PY has got a few points slower over the last few years..perhaps that is what the data is saying......
Either way they are still developments and still relevant for Jim (possibly)
-------------
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
|
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Mar 14 at 9:15am
I don't have nearly as many classes or returns as I think I need. Not being a twitter/Facebook enthusiast I have no idea if there are places this could be posted there that would have more reach...
I'm kinda surprised more folk aren't participating in something that might go towards explaining some of the oddities inhandicap changes.
|
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 18 Mar 14 at 10:01am
Jim, had a go a filling the survey out. But to be honest i don't know the exact dates of any changes so my information would be in accurate. I'm not surprised you have had a poor response, its not particularly well written and the questions will only allow someone with an intimate knowledge of a particular class be able to answer (i just don't think there are that many of that person type out there)
-------------
|
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 18 Mar 14 at 10:17am
Sadly, I have a feeling we will never get beyond the "I believe" state of things when trying to work out why the data is showing what it does. On the Laser one, "I believe" that the Laser is getting faster at a slower rate than the classes it is racing against in any number at clubs - so the Phantoms, Solos and the like, and therefore handicap creep is making it appear slower.
It is equally likely, though, that the returns which came in during the latter part of the paper era simply didn't reflect the true speed of the boat, and that they do now, as an average.
It is true that you do need to be the class geek (or be in a class that kept good records online) to know the dates of the changes in a class. Sadly, we are few and far between on here, by the look of it, which is a little, but not too, surprising. Barring contacting every class and hoping to find the right person to get a response (a huge task) it is difficult to see how else to get more info.
-------------
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
|
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Mar 14 at 11:31am
Classes I have no replies for at all listed below.
Obviously I'd be interested in suggestions on how it could be better written. I don't think we can get away with out a reasonable amount of expertise in the individual classes, but you'd hope that people who do Champs/Opens fairly often would have a reasonable idea.
2000
A Class
B14
Buzz
Cadet
Challenger
Comet
Comet Trio
Dart 16
Dart 18
Enterprise
Europe
Formula 18
Graduate
Heron
Hornet
Hurricane 5.9
Int 14
Int Moth
Iso
Javelin
K1
K6
Kestrel
Lark
Laser 4000
Laser Eps
Laser II
Laser Pico
Laser Vago XD
Mirror
OK
Optimist
RS 400
RS Vareo
Scorpion
Snipe
Solo
Solution
Spitfire
Sprint 15
Sprint 15 Sport
Supernova
Tasar
Topaz Uno
Wanderer
Wayfarer
|
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Mar 14 at 1:28pm
One thing people could do for me...
Its been suggested that I should post the link on all the class forums. I fear the suggestions is probably correct, but my enthusiasm for creating 100 logins for 100 class forums and Facebook pages and goodness knows what else is limited...
Please could folk post the link for me on Class or club forums, class/club social media or anything else they are already members of to see if I get some more responses that way?
thanks, Jim C
|
Posted By: VeeBee200
Date Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 4:10pm
Hey Jim,
Just completed your survey on behalf of Vago XD class. Boat was only launched in 2005. No carbon rig, the XD main was already mylar/laminate and the hull is rotomolded.
Our club has adjusted the RYA handicap by +2, but as the only Vago XD in the club it is more of a personal handicap.
Hope this info helps.
Rich
-------------
----------------------------------------------------------------
Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder.
----------------------------------------------------------------
VeeBee Vago#200
|
|