So you want to go fast......
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11383
Printed Date: 14 Jul 25 at 1:12am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: So you want to go fast......
Posted By: Guests
Subject: So you want to go fast......
Date Posted: 08 Mar 14 at 11:32pm
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So lets say you want to travel fast, say circa 950 ish py, but as a singlehanded. The list is short, but such totally different boats Weta Tri, Vortex Asymetric, d-one. contender, 600 - add to the list please, but weird that the options available are so wildly different configuration. One to three hulls, trapeze, no trapeze - Kite, no Kite and yet the only two that are remotely similar are the contender and its younger understudy the 600.
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Replies:
Posted By: NeilB-Phantom
Date Posted: 09 Mar 14 at 12:48am
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In my experience the Weta struggles to sail anywhere near its rating. International canoe - or is that toooo fast ------------- Phantom 1384 Dazcat D995 |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 09 Mar 14 at 4:29am
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Aside from going down the catamaran route (Vortex), getting speed out of a singlehander, especially with a lighter helm, requires high skill input; the Int. Canoe & Moth are good examples. Fast and easy to sail, on the other hand, is very tricky. The Contender does it using plenty of crew weight, and with stability gained through a wide waterline beam at the expense of a lot of wetted area and consequent dog-slow performance in light airs. I need to get around to building the elongated scow Moth design that I've had sitting on my PC for ages. So far as I can see, a scow is the only way to achieve speed with stability. Build it light enough and waterline beam and wetted area can be reduced a lot by heeling, e.g. for lighter winds and upwind. Bring it upright and it has a perfect planing shape and massive stability. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 09 Mar 14 at 8:06am
Nice to know there is someone else on here who can see the advantages of the Scow hull shape! ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Blue One
Date Posted: 09 Mar 14 at 9:23am
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Not many scow lovers on this forum anyway.
In fact not many scow lovers in sailing in general on this side of the pond. We're a dying breed.
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Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 09 Mar 14 at 9:37am
RS300 ? Rated at 990 according to the new PY for 2014. ------------- Steve |
Posted By: Er-Indoors
Date Posted: 09 Mar 14 at 12:46pm
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Interestingly Winging it has Contender and D-one and a scow Moth. Speed freak? Also the Megabyte is quite fast, but I am not sure - I think most things are too fast (note L2000 "ride" yesterday, me arrrgh, W-it Wheeeeee). I suspect if someone would come and take away the "Shredder" on our drive that could be a very fast single hander with the right rig (someone, please?) ------------- Lightning 418 "Octarine" |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 09 Mar 14 at 2:49pm
MPS and 700 are faster than the 950 bracket. Plenty of singlehanded cats, you can race a Dart 18 one up, or a 15 or a Unicorn etc. I guess Moths passed through the 950 area at some point? Canoe is an obvious alternative, how about any of the other sliding seat boats, Toy and Minisprint? No idea how fast they'd be? What's the PY of a Mini Transat boat? Sailboard? To get to a PY in the 950 region, I guess you will need either plenty of waterline length, or to be planing a lot, so that means either a kite or a trapeze, or both? |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 09 Mar 14 at 2:54pm
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I used to think the 600 was fast, it is upwind, But in reality it's only white sail fast.
Point it downwind and unless it's planning it's not really very quick. That's why they are such different designs, everybody has a different idea of what is fast. ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 09 Mar 14 at 2:56pm
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I used to think windsurfing was faster until I got a lift on a moped and hit 40 knots downhill...
Speed... under sail power... DILLIGAF ------------- |
Posted By: andy101
Date Posted: 09 Mar 14 at 9:53pm
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py 950ish
Buy a phant in 2016. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 10 Mar 14 at 8:54am
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Minisprint very slow compared to what we are looking at here, apart from on a nice reach on a windy day, when it will keep up with much more modern boats, and feel like you are breaking the sound barrier. Otherwise, think long Topper with a sitting out aid. Fun, but slow. I still wonder what a much, much lighter version with a modern but still low aspect - in the style of current rig or whats the point - Minisail would be like. The Toy is faster, but by 1960's standards. In real life, round a course, you are going to struggle to beat the Laser speed boats. I think what we are seeing from posts here is that making a singlehanded dinghy go at speeds faster than a Fireball, say, is very difficult indeed without making it harder to sail than the majority of sailors want to deal with. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 10 Mar 14 at 9:12am
Any chance you could borrow a Byte C2 rig to try on a Minisail? I imagine it is already possible to use a decently profiled centreboard and rudder in place of the crude originals. But yes, losing weight would be the icing on the cake in terms of blistering moments on the reach (might even let you plane to windward properly). Build according to the same principles of the Aero, a Minisail would surely come up sub-25kg (hull only, of course) - it is just an elongate box, structurally, after all. Wow!
------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 10 Mar 14 at 9:41am
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I don't have a scow moth, she's thinking of the Skol moth. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 10 Mar 14 at 9:49am
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[tube]On0IImHTTNY[/tube] ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 10 Mar 14 at 1:15pm
And/or longer and more cumbersome off the water... A 19footer with moderate rag, reasonable waterline beam and enough flare to hold up the rag would be pretty rapid, but who wants to cart it round the dinghy park? Consider a 19ft boat with a Canoe rig, maybe a tad smaller so its got the same heeling moment as a Phantom, about the same overall beam as a phantom but less waterline beam for the same static stability as a Phantom. Its going to be close to Canoe speed until it runs out of righting moment, and then you've got a good modern rig that will depower and blade off far better than any soft sail. Be a real weapon. But its not going to fit in many garages, it will be a pain in the dinghy park (I have to park a 17ft canoe diagonally!) and so on... |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 10 Mar 14 at 1:20pm
Would be a bit of a dog in light airs though, without a trapeze to hold up enough sail area to counter the wetted area due to the length. Even I. C.'s are not the best in the light stuff, despite a rig that needs a plank to hold it up. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 10 Mar 14 at 3:34pm
Not sure about that, in the very light stuff, you should be able to get forwards and reduce the wetted area by lifting the stern out. In sub-planing conditions it should have low wave drag due to small cross section. Maybe sail it heeled. Might be slow to tack and get knocked around a lot in some choppy conditions. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 10 Mar 14 at 6:01pm
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At 19 feet it will be fairly heavy, too. But, yes, as waterline length is king, a 19 foot dinghy should be faster, all other things being equal. Are there any out there? What is the longest singlehander in use today? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 10 Mar 14 at 6:06pm
There are some things that go round the world... |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 10 Mar 14 at 6:09pm
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I knew someone would say that... I was thinking of the kind of thing we sail... ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 10 Mar 14 at 7:26pm
Ultimately all boats drift at the same speed, so all fast boats will look doggy in very light conditions. Its another of the dodgy approximations of handicapping: we use time on time handicapping which makes the assumption that if boat a is twice as fast as boat b in 20 knots of wind it will also be twice as fast in 5 knots of wind, which is dubious, and also that it will be twice as fast when both are virtually stationary... Mind you US leadmine sailors tend to handicap on seconds per mile which is even more dubious - except when both boats are stationary...That makes the assumption that if in 20 knots of breeze boat a sails a mile in in 5 minutes and boat b sails it in ten minutes then in 5 knots of breeze if boat a sails it in 20mins boat b will sail it in 25mins. |
Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 10 Mar 14 at 7:56pm
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As Medway's club thinks his V3000 is 980ish and Mr Medway thinks I should loose 25 points for single handing mine .... The V3000! .... it probably is 950 (relatively) on on those days when only it can plane, I've certainly beaten the club Javelins (926) in it on occasion. ------------- Javelin 558 Contender 2574 |