The weight of things to come...
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11373
Printed Date: 14 Jul 25 at 1:08am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: The weight of things to come...
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: The weight of things to come...
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 11:00am
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How long I've been cracking on about the stupid weight of things and the propensity of all concerned to keep things 'heavy' allegedly for the benefit of all those previous owners that of course still support the given class in droves - Not.
Will, following the brave move from RS with their innovative Aero, we finally see a trend to get to grips with the hernia inducing nature of this stupid pursuit? Will we maybe see a composite Farr 3.7 at 35kgs, what about the Heavyweight 'Contender'? I had a vigorous discussion with the chaps who were chucking away a fine opportunity with the Buzz relaunch as they were clinging to the same ole same ole keep the none existent class members with their 90 kilo old tubs happy. I bet everyone who picked up the Aero couldn't believe anything could be so light, but every other boat other than the D Zero which wasn't quite as light, but is probably proportionately weightier given there's more of it. It was the one thing that made me initially happy about the EPS when I first lifted it onto the trailer single handed which was a first for me. Even the RS100 needed someone else to help a lot of time especially to position it for a bit of beach dragging.. The Vortex has shed 18 kgs I hear, I couldn't get to lift that, but any weight saving has to be good. So how's your class doing regarding weight loss, is there anyone else on a diet? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Replies:
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 11:06am
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Nervousness of build quality aside, I'd be cautious of going 'too light' as handling onto and off the trolley can become a cow.... even with a bare mast up you need to be careful with leaving something like a 600 or MPS head-to-wind without tying it down and they are substantially heavier than either the D-Zero or Aero which inspires this thread. I'm also not fond of single handers which fall over as soon as leave it for 3 or 4 second to pull a trolley up a ramp.... that was one major difference I noted between the prototype 100 and the production one. However we shouldn't make too much judgements on existing classes and their minimum weights- that's part of that specific game, hence why I accepted the lead flashing bolted to the the bottom of my Solo without any real feeling towards it. I can see where dead classes who resurrect their old weight might be a bit of contentious point- sounds like the Vortex have been conservative, but going in the right direction, whereas the Buzz is maintaining something for a small portfolio of customers who couldn't save itself the first time around.
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Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 11:16am
Not really - I believe the D-0 and Musto Skiff have identical hull weights ... of course the D-0 will have a lighter rig, no wings and so will be lighter all up. I noted at the show both the D-0 & Aero were prototypes ... I think we should reserve judgement and see what both production boats come in at all-up weight as that is the only figure that matters. I suspect the Zero & Aero will both be in the same ball park weight wise all up ... about 60kgs ... which is still very light for an all up weight. Anyone know the all up weight of a Laser? I'd guess 85kgs ...???
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Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 11:16am
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You see Graeme this is the thing. If you want out and out performance and speed than i dare suggest you want something as light as possible. However if you want something to be useable, well built and long lasting then you have to allow for a little compromise. Sailing is ALL about compromise. You can have the fastest set of sails in the world for one wind speed but they will be the slowest for a different speed, you can have the fastest planning hull shape, which will be a dog in a drifter. You can design a boat that foils, which will struggle in lighter conditions....etc. So in my mind often the best all round boats are compromises that satisfy all points of sailing. For me the only time i really care about boat weight is moving the thing around the dinghy park. This kind of leads me onto another point about speed. We don’t have a Dinghy speed week (unless i have missed something obvious) so the fact one class is faster than another is kind of moot point. As we all know the ultimate dinghy racing is class racing (theoretically all should be nearly the same speed) or handicap racing, where we have a handicapping system that should see any speed advantage controlled so ultimately its human influence that wins the day.
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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 11:21am
no bun fight, but I'd include wings and deck gear in the hull weight measurement myself. Which is essentially agreeing with you... all up static weight is what counts and we can reserve judgement until we see them on some scales. ------------- |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 11:28am
I think it would be more helpful if data like this was published as there is a lot of BS published by some suppliers under the description of "hull weights" http://www.mustoskiff.com/sub-pages/weight-breakdown.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.mustoskiff.com/sub-pages/weight-breakdown.htm Perhaps we could develop a thread here where by owners could weigh their boats and share the facts. I suspect some people would be staggered at the sailing weight of their craft ... Of course if you have a one-design or dev class which has a certificate you know exactly what you have paid for ...
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 11:42am
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Well from my world, we inevitably went too far, and light boards inevitably didn't last, but, dingoes are a world away from where we are, in our world 3metre 90 long boards are 'heavy' if they exceed 16 kilos, even back in the day 18 kgs was the norm and the Olympic OD 375 board was 14.5 and some of them are still kicking around many years later.
OK, Dinghies (no pun intended here) are bigger and more voluminous so one would expect them to be heavier, but it is 2014 and there are some very heavy old tubs still about that need a serious diet. Purely on health and safety grounds alone I believe the limit for a single person lift has reduced from 32kgs down to 25 kgs. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Blue One
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 11:42am
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I do agree with you Russ. If the production weights are in the 30 to 40kg range and if the boats prove to be durable, it will make some of the small single handed classes think about reducing their hull weight. Classes like, comet (hull weight 50kg), streaker ( hull weight 48kg) or even my class, British Moth( hull weight 45kg).
On the other hand I don't think anything with make solo sailors vote for a weight reduction. Do hope I am wrong. |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 11:43am
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Sounds like a good idea.... I know I have been dissuaded from weighing new boats before collecting them in the past. It wasn't necessary for my Solo- it had been independently weighed as part of the measurement process. ------------- |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 12:14pm
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The thing that continually gets me, oh er it's not heavy enough, you must add some lead first before you try to lift it on that trailer, tow it to the event, lift it off the trailer, sail it about..
Never mind the carbon footprint extra lead brings to the not very green equation, er just plain why? Are you stupid or something Forest? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 12:36pm
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A few issues. First, can you buy an Aero or whatever with a guarantee that the hull will be at the advertised weight? Second, if it ever needs to be repaired, will it be uncompetitively heavy? Thirdly, as others have said, all-up weight matters more, particularly aloft and at the ends. So it would be nice to say goodbye to metal rudder stocks and so forth. I'm not too worried about weight ashore, but weight is the thief of speed afloat. The other side of the coin is that length is good, maybe a 15ft boat with an all-up weight normally associated with 13ft would be a good package. Forget arguing about slimming down existing classes, RS have done the right thing in starting with a clean sheet of paper. I think dinghies have some catching up to do, lightweight materials and techniques are commonplace in many other sports/leisure items. |
Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 12:49pm
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I'm currently sailing the X1 which has a hull weight of 75kgs, which is really low for 16ft boat. It's so easy to move around ashore and you really notice it in the light stuff when you get a puff and you just glide effortless along the water.
Lighter boats please! I'm sure i've pulled more muscles packing boats away rather than sailing them |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 1:21pm
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It's important not to overestimate the benefit of weight reduction. Sure, it is better on-shore, but the difference on the water is not always apparent in terms of speed, and as has been said above, upon launching a lighter boat will be more skittish and rolly. Despite the 25kg hull weight reduction, a V3000 does not always annihilate a Laser 3000. To windward (where dinghy sailors spend 2/3 of their time) there's little in it in most conditions, and even in out-and-out planing conditions a well-sailed L3k can keep up with or even beat a competently sailed V3k. The only time the difference is dramatic is in a low F.3, when the V3k will start planing on the run/reach and the L3k won't quite, whatever you do. But that is what, maybe 5% of the time we spend out sailing? It is delightful to sail the lighter boat in those conditions, but you have to contend with a friskier boat all the time in order to enjoy it. I'm sure I've been blown over on occasions in the V when the L would have given me those extra micro-seconds to react and save the swim. I'm told by one who knows that this was the case in the Phantom class when they built the plastic boats down to weight, an effect that was then countered by the use of carbon masts. This effect is hinted at in the Aero leaflet, where it says "RS Aero is so light there is less inertial mass to pull against when trying to sit in if there is a wind lull or header". Yep, recognise that one. So it's not all win-win; on balance nicer, but not unreservedly. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 1:38pm
I don't think you will ever understand what it means to compete in equal equipment will you ... have you had lots of shoes? http://youtu.be/CJh59vZ8ccc" rel="nofollow - http://youtu.be/CJh59vZ8ccc
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Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 2:41pm
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My first nationals in an epoxy phantom resulted in me swimming cos the boat just went from below me. That would never have happened in my older heavier polyester one. Can't remember the weight difference but the performance one was startling. ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Alan Gillard
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 3:14pm
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Streakers increased the weight a few years back from 44kg to 48kg, before the epoxy versions came in. I suppose you might think a retrograde step? At the time very few Streakers (most were built from the standard Holt wood kit) were anything like 44kg. Most were nearer the 50kg. The Cory built polyester GRP versions were also around that weight although the GRP version seemed to fluctuate in weight with one boat even weighing in at 71kg. There were a number of exceptional lightweight Streakers in the 80's before rules were tightened up, which people had built (not from the Holt kit) which weighed under the 44kg minimum. These boats flouted class rules really (plywood thinner than that allowed and certain parts missing which are supplied with the kit) and gave the class a longevity problem, so a number of second hand Streakers were of poor quality. The class has moved on significantly since then, with currently 2 builders building quality epoxy FRP boats, down to the minimum 48kg. It will be interesting to see the longevity of the Aero, certainly with such a low hull weight? All boats suffer from stress in use, usually this is shown by cracks in gell coat. Cockpits in Lasers suffer user damage so I see no reason that sailors will not put such a lightweight hull under similar loads. I think both the D0 and the RS Aero look to be well thought out designs, for my liking in both there is not enough depth to the cockpit. I like to be able to put my legs somewhere when sailing and that is not always in wind enough to sit out on toestraps. Both a Solo and a Streaker have that depth to the cockpit.
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Posted By: Blue One
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 3:39pm
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Think it's been a long time since anyone launched a deep cockpit single hander. Probably the streaker and the comet were the last to have any success. Shallow, selfdraining, open transom is the way the market is going. Not good at all for me as a middle-aged puddle sailor with bad knees. It's one of the reasons I ended up bm sailing. I love the look of the aero and the d-0 and one sure they will attract laser sailors, but I cannot see many solo sailors changing class. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 4:13pm
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Tell me they're not still arguing for heavy boats up there?
Oeer it's too light, I fell out of it...  ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 4:21pm
Hmm funny I seem to remember winning a bunch of OD events in my time and you know the one thing I learned? However much they try to make them all the same? They never do and there is always a work around. Wether it's an international batch issue on OD sails, or a factory shift, or a difference between foil makers, or the fact that you could heat the board up with a black plastic dustbin line to change the rocker, or that the factory tolerances were just never up to it, so you'd have sailors in the warehouse with scales, trust me there is no such thing. Not to mention the fact everyone weighs different amounts and they are taller and shorter so have differing righting moments, One Design was only ever a clever marketing ploy to sucker dinghy sailors into believing an impossible dream. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 6:32pm
But an epoxy boat should be much better in this respect than a polyester one because AIUI cured epoxy is more flexible than cured polyester. What I'm told (if I understood it right), is that with polyester the resin takes the load before the fibre, and tends to crack: with epoxy the fibre takes load before the resin and all is healthy. Of course that also depends on the gel coat being able to cope, but I know a lot of effort was being made on developing gel coats to work better on epoxy substrates, so maybe the chemists have made some significant advances. Interesting the comments on the epoxy Phantom. I would have thought (and in the past have suggested I fear) that there ought not to be that much difference when new, but maybe there's something about the Phantom which resulted in a major jump. That might explain why we're seeing a continuing increase in Phantom performance in the PY returns as plastic masts and epoxy hulls percolate through the club fleets. There's a little evidence that new boats take a lot longer to become significant in the PY returns than one might expect. I've been keeping a good eye on IC returns because the fleet is small enough for me to be able to have a shot at associating boats to clubs, and the vast majority of returns seem to be for boats 5 and 10 years old. The newer boats don't seem to do a lot of club racing (apart from Colin's!) =========================== but GRF, so long as the sailors actually believe that impossible dream, then in their heads their boats will be fast, and that's the most important place. So its unkind to point out to Laser or whatever sailors they are no more likely to have even boat speed than anyone else, because so long as they believe they do they'll be all right... |
Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 7:16pm
I've yet to see a non-epoxy Phantom and from the clubs I've visited and from what I've heard I get the impression that epoxy ones are by far the majority racing at clubs and have been for a while. Hardly surprising when I suspect epoxy has been the main building material for at least 10 years now. They makes me even more curious as to what is behind the continued observed performance increase of the Phantom fleet, in recent years. Weight, design and equipment has not changed in quite some time. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 7:23pm
The very best you can hope for is that your One Design kit is no slower than everyone else's, but we all know, at least those that have experienced OD competition at the very highest level, the effect of even a minor advantage due to weight, or a duff foil, or as we witnessed at the Olympics, a dodgy mast. I've catalogued here before the lengths some go to, to give themselves a perceived advantage, tuned battens, backed flushing strips, 'special internally tuned' foils all with the distinct advantage to tune the one thing that does make a difference in OD, your brain. However racing brains are a fragile thing and the more you study the One Design principle, the more you come to realise, it aint. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 7:39pm
Maybe you're right, but its amazing how stuff lingers around. Consider, there are still enough Laser 2s being raced to justify a published PY number and I don't think any of them have been built in the UK for pushing 15 years... I'm sure people could look at the Py list and spot a couple more classes you'd think would be long gone when you consider how long it is since any were sold. |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 9:08pm
Fundamentally disagree with that. 5kg either way in crew weight in non-planing winds in the 2K and I absolutely know about it.
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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 9:16pm
So what this really shows is that 'back in the day' before GRF had PY to moan about, he had to come up with other reasons for not smashing all of his competitors......
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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 9:20pm
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Can't agree with the idea that ODs are not much closer in speed than development classes. In one of the SMODs I sail (Tasar) the latest worlds were won with a 1976 or 77 boat. Is there any development class or "normal" OD in which a boat nigh on 40 has won a worlds? In another SMOD I sail, a C 1984 hull won the 2008 and 2010 nationals against ex Olympians and a World Youth runner-up. Another C '84 hull was quickest in 2009 (beating two current Olympians although one was cross-training from another discipline). Brand new kit won in 2007 and 2011. If you could get those sort of results from a development class then the development class ideal, in which boats get significantly faster, must be failing. Like many I've sailed development classes and SMODs and in SMODs I have never found anything like the speed differences I have found in development classes when changing hulls or sails. Yes, a SMOD class can have an optimum weight. However, the same thing occurs even in the most open of development classes. World A Class champ Steve Brewin is at a disadvantage at most regattas because he is smaller than his opposition. In the Moths, the world's runner-up felt that he was at a disadvantage because he was larger than his opposition. Any difference is one of degree, and probably more down to the general design of the craft rather than how tight the rules are. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 10:03pm
Did you get a degree in the bleeding obvious? I'm not drawing comparisons with Development classes, I'm merely pointing out they are not as identical in performance as folk would have you believe and you would be old enough to know the difference between a TenCate and a McGibbon Windsurfer OD sail for example, the terms chalk and cheese spring to my mind... ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 10:22pm
Interestingly, before they were ousted by Blazes, we had two epoxy/carbon rig Phantoms sailing at WSC, one sailed by an ex Phantom nat champ, but they were usually beaten by an older polyester/tin rig boat that was simply better sailed; the owner of the older boat said did have to work much harder in gusty weather though.
Disagree all you like, but it was observed fact. For example in the Medway Marathon a couple of years back. This is a long race in which you can really settle down and focus on boat speed, yet we had the following 3k elapsed times: Laser 3000 2:52:30 V3000 2:57:34 V3000 2:59:40 V3000 3:00:39 So much for the effect of 25kg. OK, that was in a in a Force 4, so we were all planing on the off-wind legs, but we had similar situations on non-planing days. You may notice a 5kg difference, sure, but is it really affecting your speed as much as it affects the feel and your morale? ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 10:29pm
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some of the poly phantoms were up to 14 kgs overweight, which does have a huge impact. The tin rigs were not as gust responsive which meant that the average weight of the helm was heavier. They weren't uncompetitive, but you needed some strength (or lard) to keep them going well. As carbon has taken over the average weight has reduced. There was an influx of lightweights (relatively speaking of course) which has probably meant that the speed in lighter stuff has increased. This is also the area where the phantom excels, so possibly doubling the effect. Not quite sure why the performance would still appear to be improving, this has been the status for the last 4 years or so, at least, maybe a little longer. Maybe its just catching up.... ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 10:37pm
No - it's a genuine difference on every tack and gybe, or major manoevuvre. Which is where most distance is lost in most racing and that difference then multiplies to become time (lots of it). 'Sailing is a game measured in inches, which rapidly become miles..." So in a planing, marathon race the effects are minimised, especially as drag will be the limiting factor (rig and hull) once planing, not weight. And the advantage of good tactics, trim is most to the fore. Put that together, and especially in the context of jsut raw finish times and I see no proof in 5 minutes in 180.
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Posted By: solutiongirl
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 10:39pm
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Two years ago we had 50/50 split between poly and epoxy phantoms in the fleet at our club. Now we're down to only one poly boat and he doesn't go out so often. As JimC said, stuff lingers around and the club-level phantom fleet hasn't quite finished switching to the epoxy hull/carbon rig combo just yet. |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 11:26pm
You said "One Design was only ever a clever marketing ploy to sucker dinghy sailors into believing an impossible dream". Before ODs came along, all classes were development classes, therefore the only thing you appeared to have been contrasting this "marketing ploy" with were development classes. I was also replying to Jim's reference to "anyone else", which I assumed referred to loose OD/development class sailors. Secondly, the fact that problem occurred in poorly run ODs or at isolated times is not evidence that the concept is just a marketing ploy.
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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 03 Mar 14 at 11:37pm
But with respect, how do you know whether the "genuine difference on every tack or gybe" is caused by an extra 5kg difference in crew weight, or by the other guys being marginally better at tacking and gybing? Even at top level, some crews are better at some moves than others. I have been involved in some rather amusing conversations in regattas where midfleet/back of the pack sailors complained about how their extra 5kg in boat or sailor weight was the problem, when in fact the winner had exactly the same weight "handicap". I'm NOT saying that you are sailing poorly as ISTR you have some very good results; just musing about the problems of identifying when weight is really the critical issue in overall performance. Mind you, I've got poor feel for boatspeed myself so maybe I'm missing something. |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 04 Mar 14 at 7:40am
| Because I sail with a lot of different crews where sometimes the lighter is the weaker crew and sometimes the heavier. Interestingly with one of the kids on board and being 30kgs+ lighter the effect is amplified even further. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Mar 14 at 7:53am
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Those L3K v V3k comparisons are probably disingenuous, I bet the Banjo boys had tooled their L3K up with the bigger sails & foils that seemed to 'appear' around the time of the V3k.
The two boats were chalk and cheese, there is no way on earth dumb and dumber could have achieved what they did in a bog standard L3k, they didn't, I sold them mine, they went nowhere in it, then along came the V3k and suddenly they were omnipresent, even won the Man of Kent in it, that boat is a rocket ship in a breeze, the L3k by comparison is a slug. I recall they did have a lame attempt at bigging up an L3k using some of their V3k bits, but 'we' clocked it and had a word with them, at the time there was a bit of an L3k fleet at the club and the others weren't happy about it. Either way, the weight difference in the two plays a major part, but having said that there was also a sail size increase and the boys appeared to be running bigger foils, in a breeze they were all over us in the Alto, that would never happen in an L3k, not on our water around our courses. Obviously what happens on long fixed buoy fetches on rivers where the opportunity to overtake may or may not be as often. The flatter nature of the water with it's propensity for longer periods on the plane, may give an L3K an opportunity to wind up and stay there doesn't happen on our water, where the on off accelerate decelerate nature of the hills you have to drive up and down favour light boats that get up and going quickly after a pause. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Mar 14 at 9:07am
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There is no doubt that some OD fleets have as big a spread of boat performance as a development class fleet - the GRP solos from the 70's are as slow compared to modern boats as the N12's of the period are to a modern 12. However, I have chosen my OD's with care, as befits a limited budget, and have 2 boats which are capable of winning open meetings, if only I could get my arse in gear. Obviously, this involves a decent sail (unless you are "The Boy" belonging to iiiiiiitick - somehow he wins with an old one - I put it down to pure luck, as I refuse to admit just how much better at sailing he is than I am) and in the case of the Lightning, a new boat will be stiffer, but the differences are minimal - far less than the difference in performance of one helm from race to race. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 04 Mar 14 at 10:40am
The L3k was indeed equipped with the latest sails, so the only real difference was in the weight and stiffness of the hulls; that's what made the results so interesting. It wasn't just in that one race either. The L3k won the Regatta in light airs too, only suffering in the 'windy' F3 race when, having arrived at the windward mark all in a bunch, the V3k's romped off downwind on the plane while the L3k plodded down in displacement mode. That was the only time it was significantly outclassed. What you also must concede is that D&D's performance improved enormously over the course of their 3k years, so their results in the V would inevitably have bettered those in the purple peril. Actually, I think sailing ability is a factor in making many improvements in classes seem more significant than they are: the top sailors upgrade to the newer, improved boats sooner, emphasizing the difference. When one of the top guys switches back to an old boat for a regatta, people are amazed how fast he still goes. I recall Ian Walker winning the 14 Worlds with a tin rig when everyone else of note had switched to carbon, which was considered de rigeur. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Mar 14 at 11:21am
Careful, not only might you be acknowledging handed down sailing skill from an old windsurfing dog, I like to think I had a hand in helping those two, with tactical chats and creating a competitive environment locally in which to improve, but you are also making my point in the skewing of PY data.. So we do agree at least that no matter how light or fast a boat might be if you don't get it off the line on time or send it generally in the right direction it won't do you that much good.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: hollandsd
Date Posted: 04 Mar 14 at 1:01pm
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After being moaned at about winning races in the V3000 we took a year out and then came back with 3505 (Laser 3000) with GNAV and standard sails. Our mods were all class legal and we still won many of the races that we took part in. What you must realise grumpf is that in between sailing the purple peril and the V3000 is that we had been away in the B14 and the 3000 and done training events and class racing which honed our abilities. Having people like yourself and Tony around to ask advice from a tactical standpoint would have definitely help. Back to the old + heavy / new + light debate. With the 3000 its not so noticable with the weight difference as we found, our fastest top speed was higher in the older boat with original sails than the new boat with the larger sails. Quite often absolute speed is not limited by things like weight, other things like the cut or size of the sail can quite often have an overwhelming effect. Weight can often be lost in the noise. Stiffness of the hull and rig also quite often make quite a difference. Dan ------------- Laser 184084 Tasar 3501 RS600 698 RS600 782 |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 6:12pm
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Bethwaite's book has some graphs of drag vs speed for various all up displacement of the same hull. It supports the view that heavy boats are slow all else being equal. (didn't we know that anyway?, for sure all else is rarely equal though) If you look at the speed for a constant drag, it suggests to me that even a 10% reduction in all up weight ought to make a significant difference. More than any of the PY changes we've been moaning about by a long chalk. I know the air drag will increase because of the higher apparent wind uphill. So if the RS400 is say 140kg rigged and ready, plus 150kg of body weight, losing 30 or 40kg would be way more worthwhile than fiddling with the rig. That ought to be achievable, not in an RS400 as such, but in a boat designed for the same purposes in this century. A lighter boat which gets over the tide in less wind sounds good to me. |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 6:45pm
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Yes, but only while you are planing. What percentage of your time out sailing is that? Be honest! The effect on displacement drag is far less marked. To really take advantage of the reduction in weight you'd need to narrow off the waterline beam on your new design to cut down wetted area at all significantly, and that will make for a tippier boat. Is that what people want? If you think so, why wasn't the 400 designed with a narrower waterline in the first place? Swings and roundabouts... ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 7:22pm
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Er less weight = less displacement or hadn't you spotted that, do we have to go back to my two boards made of different material that you couldn't get your head round last time we discussed it? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 7:35pm
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Remembering last time, your 2 boards were of the same weight, but one had bubbles in, so floated higher. I don't think many people paid much attention after "bubblesgate", as they (and me) were too busy taking the piss... If your only point was that a lighter boat displaces less (whether in salt or fresh water) then I think we all knew that. The point above is that unless you have a rapidly narrowing waterline, it makes very little difference, and if you do, then you are simply taking the boat away from the designed waterline width - if the designer had wanted it like that, he would have made it so.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 7:46pm
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Er, like the skin of 'your' Phantom, it had bubbles in the skin as well as being stiffer, so is/was faster, don't start me of on it again, you're dinghy sailors, you didn't get it then you're not going to get it if I try to explain it all over again, but lighter is faster in everything except drifter to very light conditions ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 7:55pm
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By putting bubbles in, you make the hull material thicker for the same weight, so making it stiffer for the same weight. A stiffer boat will almost certainly be faster but that has nothing to do with the bubbles - if someone came up with a non-bubble way of doing the same job, it would work, too.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 8:02pm
Of course, but displacement drag is mostly wave and skin friction. The wave drag will diminish directly with displacement, but skin friction will generally decrease much less than that, so that our 10% decrease in displacement will reduce the drag by only 6 or 7%, maybe. Then while the skin friction drag will go up with the square of the speed, the wave-making drag will go up even quicker, especially as you approach hull speed. So displacement speed improvement may only be perhaps 3%. Hardly something to get excited about, especially when you have a significantly more fidgety boat to contend with. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 8:03pm
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No one disputes that little or much, lighter is faster. Of course this being a forum opinions immediately get polarised. Thing is, boring though it is design is all about compromise and as some very experienced people voiced in the recent string about rigs, faster is not the same as better. Even setting aside cost and durability, lighter to the extreme would not necessarily be better for all regarding usability. I would rather light than heavy. My guide = one person easily pulls a single hander up a steepish slip, two people a double hander. Much lighter than that life doesn't get so much easier for the average weekend (if they're lucky) sailor. Super light can be a pain to tack in heavy weather without good technique esp' single handers, ring any bells GRF? A little mass can help a lot with a bit of way to glide past head to wind. Single handers need help launching, it can be pretty unpopular leaving your trolley half in the water because you dare not leave your boat tied to a rock/pontoon boat for a second. On a gusty shifty inland lake a bit of mass can also help take the sting out of the worst on off wind. Yes I know light can also help in gusts, it will assist in accelerating away vs getting knocked over. The skill will be using newly appearing materials to make a boat with the characteristics to suit it's target users. |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 10:01pm
But that's kind of the point of very light - you don't tie it up while you deal with the trolley. You just pick it up and walk it in/out.
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Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 10:05pm
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to be fair though Matt even 30kg is quite a weight when its as big as dinghy especially with the wind playing havoc as well. I suspect a few people will put their backs out trying to do that!! ------------- |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 10:10pm
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 10:11pm
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Any 'thing' over 20 kgs is heavy.
Any person over 70kgs is obese. Fact. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 10:14pm
Keep at it, you'll get there. Then you can have a D-Zero. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 10:30pm
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Truly a Lightweight iGRF 50 kg bags of cement man 'n' boy. 75 kg is an excellent fit weight.  |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 10:52pm
Not before I rid myself of one of the other three boats, two mountain bikes, 1 road bike, three race boards, two wave boards, my water pusher, various masts, booms, sails, kites, boards and other essential ingredients to an ageing adolescents lifestyle that the bread knife has decreed is at an end. 'Get rid of one before you get another or I'm out of here', or words to that effect and this time I think she means it.. (She has never really come to terms with the Genius that is the V Twin adorning her drive.) 
Women can be very unreasonable. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 11:02pm
Just as long as it doesn't bring out anyone's 'special facial expression'!
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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 11:09pm
yep - 2 snowboards now rather than 3. 2 boats going down to 1. 2 windsurf boards rather than 4. Well actually 5, I don't count the one in Spain. I have two skateboards- I use neither, but I have one for the pleasure of owning (Arbor longboard bought direct from Venice Beach), the other is getting a UJ drilled into it at some point, or I might just eBay it for 20 quid and save my kids the embarrassment of me getting arrested for windsurfing in Tesco's car park. 1 bike - that used to be 3 at one point- wtf was that about- esp the road bike? 1 rowing machine - time to start using it, it's costing 50 quid a month to rent the f**ker. It's definitely time to downsize toys and focus.... ------------- |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 1:12am
| Mine's very reasonable; four boats (Laser to 28'er), 7 bikes (only 4 of them are mine) and 17 windsurfers bring very few complaints from her (all things considered). Luckily she also sails and rides. |
Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 6:14am
| I made the mistake of doing an inventory recently and got to 13 waterborne craft, 7 bicycles.... |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 7:51am
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It's the three classic moths that push my inventory into scary numbers. But I am selling the low rider, I have the prototype hull to give away, then I would just have the D1, contender, classic 14 and 2k. Oh and two classic moths.... ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 8:23am
| 4.2 boats, 2 m/cycles, about a dozen or so items of musical hardware |
Posted By: Thunder Road
Date Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 8:40am
The Finn dropped from 120kg to 116kg 4 or 5 years ago, not a good idea it questioned our manliness and boat hauling skills  ------------- Finn GBR16 Thunder Road. |
Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 8:46am
And that's just the hull ------------- Rodney Cobb Suntouched Sailboats Limited http://www.suntouched.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.suntouched.co.uk [EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 9:18am
I envy you... I real wish I had even a basic music ability, nevemind talent, or at least enthusiasm enough to mask the lack of it. Sadly I don't and it feels like a social handicap. Even Guitar Hero wouldn't load when I bought a PlayStation... (another totally redundant toy, but it did at least serve as a Blu Ray player before Blockbuster went, well, bust.) ------------- |
Posted By: Dougal
Date Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 9:25am
Yes, it's the guitars that cause more of a problem than the 6 boats and 5 boards. At least she believes me when I tell her the new guitar was only a couple of hundred off ebay... ------------- What could possibly go wrong? |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 9:34am
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1. Road bike 1. Winter road bike 1. Mountain bike (my pride and joy) cyclocross bike on its way soon...sadly I only own 1 boat now but obviously have the use of a d1. ------------- |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 10:37am
Well us girls like to have manly types around to haul our boats about for us..
But we always reward them with a big kiss....  ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 10:40am
We have to remember the 400 was designed in about 1991. At that time, I think I had a Morris Marina estate and motorbikes wth pushrod engines. Amstrad were flogging an awful lot of 486 PCs.... I guess at the time, the 400 was designed to be the most effective waay of getting a lot of people into the asymetric market, which it clearly did very well in the UK, as a lot of boats were sold very quickly. I'm sure you'd not need to reduce waterline beam to get a speed increase at displacement speeds, although lower wetted area is always good. Form stability has its uses, but once a boat is moving a lot of other things come into play. Anyone who's sailed a Tales in gusts and lumpy water will know what I mean. I'm talking about a boat you design today, for the committed asymetric club sailor who has sailed asy's before. I would say the majority of races we plane at least once, and I enjoy sailing a boat fast. I also enjoy tactical sailing, where speed is not important in itself, but if that was the only thing, I'd get a keelboat. |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 10:59am
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One thing that could be improved on the RS400: Sailing them in Minorca in the early '90's (thus not wearing too much body armour) after being initially impressed I shied away when I felt they were beating me up. I just seemed to pick up a lot more damage in them than other boats for some reason - the low boom and lots of metal fittings? It struck a chord when a club member returned from Minorca more recently with similar comments. That said, sailing one in UK in a wetsuit seemed like a different experience. Sorry, off topic, nothing to do with weight...
------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: Thunder Road
Date Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 11:52am
 ------------- Finn GBR16 Thunder Road. |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 1:11pm
Honestly Mr Welly... get your self a Ukulele, you will astound yourself at how easy it is to learn that mystical musical ability. And if you get a Tenor or Baritone Ukulele it doesn't sound like a kids toy, and man's hands can play um' ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 1:27pm
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Thank you Jack... I shall add it to the bucket list, however I remain unconvinced of its ease of use and any attempts of musicianship on my part, would sadly be on par with the sounds heard when strangling kittens.
------------- |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 1:58pm
I guess there is a place for music which is to be performed but not listened to. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 2:27pm
 ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 2:43pm
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You're implying that's a photo from the Hoo Freezer, aren't you Grumph? ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 2:47pm
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It's just what the boys told me everyone up at Wilsonian was like
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 06 Mar 14 at 4:05pm
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[TUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTU2W_BTN3c[/TUBE] ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |