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Ozone- competitive sailing for the 21st Century

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11363
Printed Date: 14 Jul 25 at 11:58am
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Topic: Ozone- competitive sailing for the 21st Century
Posted By: yellowwelly
Subject: Ozone- competitive sailing for the 21st Century
Date Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 9:51am
Here's an idea, it's very rough around the edges and hopefully this thread can be used to positively crowdsource some flesh to the bones, and if there's enough interest, then I might just implement it.

a couple of house guidelines,

1) this thread isn't designed for PY bashing, feel free to whinge away on every other thread about specific class numbers and changes.

2) Without PY racing this concept is flawed, certainly in the earlier stages

3) the primary aim of this idea is inclusion, not exclusion, for popular singlehanded sailing dinghies.  The concept could, imho, be transferred to other categories of dinghies, however this is not the focus of this specific thread.

The Proposal - Ozone Sailing

Ozone Sailing... it's not a class association, it's more like a club.  A club or community rather, promoting racing on a first across the line basis- racing scratch for a selection of unarig hiking singlehanded dinghies.

The idea was formed initially by seeing the developments of the Devoti Zero and RS Aero.  They both look like great new boats, more or less similar in top line spec and will probably be of similar performance characteristics.  The person who sails either boat best will probably be the person who cross the line first. 

So why not race them together, free from biases and debates of a PY system?  And while we think about it, why can't the Rooster 8.1 Laser derivative join in, and the OK, and why not the Supernova?  More the merrier - racing scratch.

Well that's unlikely to happen- firstly both classes will rightly try to develop a programme of class racing for their new customers, and the Supernova and OK already have established programmes.  This is good, class racing is good and I welcome both developing successful circuit events for class racing.  Ozone Sailing would NOT want to compete with these class programmes forming an 'alternative circuit' of new events.  There's not enough resource, time and desire to go around as it is.

So this leaves us with various handicap regattas- great, but their handicap regattas aren't they?

Handicap Racing - a positive contribution to dinghy sailing

So let's deal with this, I don't believe I am alone in finding the handicap debates in club bars, dinghy parks and in magazines and social media tiresome.  Buying newer designs you are susceptible to it even more.  I bought a Solo to avoid it.  I see others year on year, frustrated that their handicap drops because those with 10 grand to spend buy an essentially different boat to them, albeit under the auspices of a class association.    While there are others who struggle with the concepts around PY- and it's understandable at the human level, how can the boat suddenly be faster than it was last year?  Does it mean that those good race memories from last season were formed under false pretences?    No, it's just statistics, but statistics are devoid of emotion, we are not.

However handicap PY racing is still the backstay to a lot of competitive dinghy sailing in the UK, certainly at club level.  It is without question fairer than it has ever been in my living memory, and those who really make it happen do so voluntarily, providing a system that in my opinion, is far superior than something derived via boat design variables and complex algorithms.  I do not believe there is any ill-intent or commercial bias or influence on the PY process, it services the majority of sailors well.  If they didn't like it, they'd buy a Laser or Solo instead, or take up golf.

But some, me included, find it unsatisfactory, somehow devaluing the process of the competitive sailing that has just happened on the water - racing scratch, devalued by an artificial set of results that have no real-time bearing on the race we thought we'd just enjoyed.

So why not respect the spreadsheet for what it is, but derive the competitive value elsewhere- based on the Elapsed Time, rather than the Corrected Time.  In other words, extract the results - racing scratch.

And that's where Ozone Sailing comes in.  

It's an online repository and community for AerO, ZerO, OK, RoOster 8.1 and SupernOva sailors which has a several events selected from the existing dinghy racing calendar and the results are re-calculated monday morning from the elapsed time.    

- we do not set about creating a new (and likely to flop) series of separate events.  With respect, I cite TASA.

- we do not risk flushing the baby out with the bathwater, PY racing provides one framework to value your racing by statistical analysis, Ozone provides another based on what happens on the water boat-on-boat.  All running on the same infrastructure and events programme with mutual respect for each other- hopefully adding boats to the start line, which is what really matters most.   

- we are wholly independent and inclusive.  Personally I would like to welcome some expertise to create a bOx rule for independent builders and homebuilders to join in.  I would personally have no problem someone joining in with a Laser either, they could even use a replica sail... but let's be fair, a Laser should be slower shouldn't it?  I'm sure I've missed other classes who could slot in too... fire away, down the line a technical team would assess the merits of entry to Ozone Sailing- not something I'm skilled enough to do myself.

- we could notionally even run a National & Inland Championship, and whilst I have some ideas around that there are some people I need to speak with first before I could venture that idea in the public domain.  But even so, Sailfest would do as an alternative and many of you guys may well prefer that anyway once I announce my idea of something totally 'alternative'.


So that's the bones of the idea- fundamentally the Ozone is to encourage lighthearted competitive sailing between new friends and old.  It is not trying to 'breakdown' any established classes or handicap racing structure, rather it is aimed at providing an informal and complementary harmonising layer to the current racing we all enjoy- based on racing scratch first across the line.

So what are your thoughts?  Positive critique welcome.  Identify barriers or just say it sucks.  It won't cost much other than time and a bit of web dev.  The whole thing could be run from Facebook... but that would be selling it short imho.  Let's hear it..




Replies:
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 10:30am
D0   ?

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the same, but different...



Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 11:44am
James - nice idea, but on paper at least OK is slower than Laser so it will be outclassed in company with the D0 & Aero (unless a certain Mr Craig is sailing it Wink ). No reason why your box rule shouldn't develop over time though, and as has been said many times - the driver is way more important to the speed around the course than the theoretical boat speed. It could even develop into a TwoZone alongside for similar hiking doublehanders.


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Nick
D-Zero 316



Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 11:58am
I'll be honest, the reason for the OK inclusion is because I've always liked them.

If giving someone who's just bought one of those lovely new Synergy Marine ones a further outlet to go sailing is something they want, why wouldn't 'we' be cool about it?  Secondly if someone with an older one just wants to come along for the craic, then again, why the hell not?  More the merrier... 

As for other hiking double handers... yep, but I know far less about them to even offer a suggestion for who, what and where.


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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 12:01pm
Grad, Firefly, Miracle, Comet Versa are all pretty similar, though the new main on the Grad might be a bit of a boost.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 12:09pm
So what do you think of the concept Rupert?  You enjoy your handicap racing, but would a second set of results based on across the line finish positions, be of interest- given a restricted competitor set of 'like' boats?

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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 12:37pm
Well having spent a lifetime doing nothing else but race boards of all manner shape and size scratch, I know it can work, but...

Knowing also the dinghy mentality and experiencing what actually exists, I think it would be tough to change them, I know for example that just having the Streaker and the Solo on the same handicap now is going to cause irritation, so two boats that could go scratch against each other, but don't want to.

Our wednesday afternoon club (Laser, Supernova, Eps) seem to get on OK, but that's only because I choose not to look at the results after and take my pleasure from what happens on the water overall, but that's my mentality coming from years of nothing else.

Funny I was thinking about this last night based on something you'd said earlier about creating 'Boxes' and if they outsailed one 'box' they'd get moved into the next one up.

Interesting idea though.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 12:40pm
My racing on the water is always based on the boats around me - for instance, if I can creep a minute ahead of the singlehanded Versa in about 50 minutes when Lightning sailing, then I know I have beaten him. This year I guess it will be about 30 seconds, mind. If we were racing scratch, then even with boats only a few seconds apart on handicap, I wouldn't feel like a winner unless I was clear ahead.

Having said that, I do like the idea. Years ago, when Fast Sail was about, I thought a Slow sail version, with all the numerically smaller singlehanded boats of 11 or 12 feet would be fun. With the Comet, the Lightning, the Europe, the BM, and numerous other, I thought a system of 2 scratch bandings could make a fun weekend of sailing. Expand that to 4 bandings to fit in the longer boats you are talking about and maybe each group would get critical mass at larger clubs and handicap events.


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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 12:43pm
Even on the same PY's, I think the brighter sparks would be able to guess Class A would win in this weather, Class B in another.

Then again, it was pretty much like that in the old days between the Buzz and the L3k.  Buzz in light airs, L3k once trapezing, but it wasn't impossible to buck the system by sailing really well on the day, which is nice when it happens, so yes. there are possibilities.

That said, looking at the spread of PY's in our h'cap fleets, we'd have pretty low numbers in each 'box'.  Not such fun unless you like match racing.


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http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class


Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

That said, looking at the spread of PY's in our h'cap fleets, we'd have pretty low numbers in each 'box'.  Not such fun unless you like match racing.

yes- that's definitely a consideration.  There is no intention for this to 'wipe out' PY racing... smaller clubs struggle to get enough boats on the water to justify any racing at all, larger ones too in some places!

Maybe down the line, if this is successful, then some clubs might adopt it, or something similar.  And Graeme's right, bumping a class up or down, would also be possible.  But these are all things to consider way down the line...

At the moment I would concentrate on maybe 2 or 3 events per month max, ones that are already on the national calendar, and where the organising authority are willing, receive copies of the Elapsted Time data and extract out 'Ozone Sailors' and produce a new set of results for the Ozone Sailing community.  The 'official results' would of course remain the PY spreadsheet traditionally sent in to Y&Y etc.  Who knows, in due course, there could be some events / clubs who run events solely on the Ozone basis, but I think that's a long way off and not something to consider just yet.


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Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by yellowwelly

I'll be honest, the reason for the OK inclusion is because I've always liked them.

If giving someone who's just bought one of those lovely new Synergy Marine ones a further outlet to go sailing is something they want, why wouldn't 'we' be cool about it?  Secondly if someone with an older one just wants to come along for the craic, then again, why the hell not?  More the merrier... 

As for other hiking double handers... yep, but I know far less about them to even offer a suggestion for who, what and where.


Absolutely no reason to not 'be cool' about it if that's what is wanted. As  you say - the more the merrier.


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Nick
D-Zero 316



Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 1:32pm
You may find that, given a reasonably small band of Portsmouth Yardsticks, that the handicaps make less difference than many people think.
Here's the slow handicap results from the Grafham Grand Prix this year (The first SJ event I found times for) with only the boats between PY 1130 and 1154 included, scored with and without handicaps.

uploads/249/ggpextract.pdf" rel="nofollow - ggpextract.pdf


Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 1:54pm
Jim- many thanks for taking the trouble to run this.  

 


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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 1:55pm
Going to have another look at the GGP stuff later.  But what I did notice was that a mid fleet sailor saw 5 places difference, or one sicth of the fleet.  That's massive.


Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 9:38am
Anyone else got anything to add to this idea... or is a bit a damp squib?

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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 10:25am
It ought to be uncontroversial that events restricted to similar styles of boats produce more consistent racing, and that if the boats are similar enough in style and speed then the difference between handicap and boat for boat results will be minimal.

Yet for some reason - take the ultimately unsuccessful TASA initiative as an example - sailors don't seem to show any great enthusiasm for such events, and its not obvious that major winter events that do divide the boats into groupings of similar classes (eg Grafham Grand Prix) are more popular than those that don't (eg Bloody Mary).

Maybe the really close racing bit isn't that big a deal to most people?


Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 10:38am
Maybe Jim... my experience before of seeing whether 700s and MPSs could race together sans handicap was met with less than an enthusiastic response, but I put that down the localised rationale, rather than any great revelation about sailing group think.... (and no sense in irony when they then shared the same PN the following season).  But I remain optimistic that the single handers I've identified could race together, safe in the knowledge the best sailor on the day will win across the finish line.  Maybe it just needs a one off event, either this year or next, organised with racing together in mind?  Or at the very least, one handicap event where a class start could be arranged for those who want to take part.  POSH sounds like the obvious candidate, although I've never sailed it myself, and timing would mean 2015.

Certainly one of the earliest, and most talked about at the time, meet-ups for the MPS and 700 was the 2006 Holt Tide Ride:  

http://www.mustoskiff.com/reports-and-news/2006/tide-ride.htm" rel="nofollow - http://www.mustoskiff.com/reports-and-news/2006/tide-ride.htm

I'd love to see a competitive spirit like that return, maybe with a little less 'them vs us' - but I love the final sentence on that report:

It is great to have these two high performance classes racing together.



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Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 12:03pm
Originally posted by winging it

D0   ?


that zero was meant to be an 'oh' meaning can the D One come.  I always have an important role to fulfill at such events, that of being last...but in the words of the great Cyndi Lauper, girls just want to have fun.


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the same, but different...



Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 12:08pm
Originally posted by yellowwelly

Anyone else got anything to add to this idea... or is a bit a damp squib?
It is doomed as a circuit idea- you'd need far bigger buy-in than a couple of people agreeing with you on an internet forum.
 
As a club racing idea, well, again, this forum isn't really the place. The concept seems good, but for it go anywhere you need to find a source of people, preferably all within striking ditance of one patch of water, with suitable boats, who're willing to commit. That's the hard part between a good idea and a good implementation


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-_
Al


Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 12:09pm
in all honesty I think the D-One would be in a league above in performance terms.... but would I personally have an issue, no, not at all, if you win you still must have sailed it well and if you don't then wtf does it matter anyway?

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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by alstorer

Originally posted by yellowwelly

Anyone else got anything to add to this idea... or is a bit a damp squib?
It is doomed as a circuit idea- you'd need far bigger buy-in than a couple of people agreeing with you on an internet forum.
 
As a club racing idea, well, again, this forum isn't really the place. The concept seems good, but for it go anywhere you need to find a source of people, preferably all within striking ditance of one patch of water, with suitable boats, who're willing to commit. That's the hard part between a good idea and a good implementation

I totally agree with you... I was wondering if the emergence of two new (on paper well matched) classes could ride the wave of enthusiasm that would otherwise not be present if this suggestion had come out of the blue.

Given the timescales involved in delivery of the two new classes, I guess 2015 would be the target year to potentially test this out.


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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 12:32pm
At club level, we already have it - we call it the Medium Handicap fleet, where Blazes (predominantly, these days) can mix it with Phantoms (predominant previously), Lasers and whatever.  Plenty of space on Medway, so the mobile obstacles (Wayfarers etc.) don't really interfere.  Not sure a dedicated start would make any odds.

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http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 12:38pm
Now I think about it, for many years there used to be an annual Flying Dutchman vs 505 open meeting in the UK. Presumably it kicked the bucket when there were too few FDs to make it worthwhile.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 05 Mar 14 at 1:01pm
There was 505 V's Int 14 team racing, too.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686



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