Too Many Classes?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11355
Printed Date: 14 Jul 25 at 9:30am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Too Many Classes?
Posted By: JimC
Subject: Too Many Classes?
Date Posted: 22 Feb 14 at 10:54pm
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Its often said that nowadays there are too many classes... I've been compiling some old Portsmouth Yardstick data, and since 1984 about 150 classes have dropped off the Portsmouth yardstick list. The number of dinghy keelboat and multihull classes on each years list since then has varied between low 90s and 140s, and at the moment its on the low side. That partly reflects policy of course, since the RYA has always received returns for more classes than it has published, because if the data isn't good enough to be useful they won't publish.
Only 32 classes have been in every PY list since 1984... Incidentally I have just had sight of a 1964 list, and back then there were somthing like 180 classes listed, although admittedly a few of them were US classes and there were also quite a few of local one design keelboats, something you don't see so much of these days. I was amused to see that the 1964 list includes a "Flying Moth", but with a PY a tad slower than a British Moth it probably didn't much resemble the flying Moths we have nowadays! |
Replies:
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 22 Feb 14 at 10:59pm
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Do you have the total race numbers Jim? Interesting to see if the perceived decline is real and pro-rata, how many classes there were to number of participants compared to today? ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 22 Feb 14 at 11:07pm
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No, that level of detail in the data is long gone I think, even as far as it existed.
But you only have to look at old issues of Yachts and Yachting and the pages and pages of classifieds to see there was more activity back in the 80s than there is now, even with free boat advertising on the web I'm in not the slightest doubt the number of ads for second hand boats is way down. What is amusing, looking at very old issues of Yachts and Yachting, is that the letters your fathers wrote weren't very different from the posts their sons make on the forums nowadays... |
Posted By: iitick
Date Posted: 23 Feb 14 at 8:35am
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1984 does not seem that long ago to me and I presume that the average club menagerie fleet would have looked much the same as now. We still have GP,s, Fireball's and Ent's.........Actually I am talking rubbish. Since 1984 we have had all those Ovington and RS classes....but the others are still there. Bearing in mind that at least two new classes will appear at the show what will drop off the list in compensation? There seem to be quite a lot of D 1's and 100's out there after a few years. There is probably a finite number of sailors so which existing classes are suffering and approaching extermination?
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Posted By: Blue One
Date Posted: 23 Feb 14 at 9:09am
That's because they were moaning old farts then and we are moaning old farts now!  |
Posted By: Simon Lovesey
Date Posted: 23 Feb 14 at 10:03am
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We saw 95 different classes in the GJW Direct SailJuice Winter Series, another possible measure of number of active classes Top 20 :
------------- http://www.sailracer.org" rel="nofollow - www.sailracer.org Online Sailing Results, GPS Tracking & Event Management |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 23 Feb 14 at 10:13am
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Be interesting to compare that with the numbers of races against each class in the new PY when it comes out.
Comparing the three figures readily available to us, races recorded in the PY table, entries in the SJ series and no of championship entries as precentages might be interesting. |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 23 Feb 14 at 10:19am
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Agreed- back to your earlier point, it's no surprise that when the barriers to entry are so high with a pastime like sailing that the group-think gets handed down generation to generation without the (badly needed?) fresh blood providing some useful insight and rationalisation. ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 23 Feb 14 at 12:43pm
You really need to back off on the old reckless optimism you know... |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 23 Feb 14 at 1:27pm
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Well a quick look at the handicap results table of my current club would leave anyone thinking the point of half empty was reached quite some time ago ;-) Fortunately the top of the 'big kettle' has been topped up by newbies in Lasers.... so much as my historic posting record might put me in the camp of 'hater', to use some hyperbolic internet nomenclature, there really isn't a great amount to dislike about the one class which is probably singlehandedly (no pun intended) stopping the entire operation, and certainly the viable racing programme, from totally imploding. Even so, the complex requirements on race officership still causes the club some quite major resourcing issues. So back to the OP- too many classes? Maybe, but maybe there's also a grass roots return to something approaching class racing, or at least different classes that can loosely be put into the same category. Certainly the most talked about new launches on here, could seemingly, occupy the same space in the market- and certainly it would make sense to race them scratch together while both in their infancy... but we won't do that, it's not what our fathers would have done, nor their fathers before them. One must die... there can be only one.... blah, blah... Perhaps we should ask the women... they seem to be far better at getting group sporting leisure off the ground... just look at zumba, body pump, body combat, spin classes, netball leagues, women's football and rugby, roller derby.... all on the up and i don't think anyone cares whether you run in Nike or Reebok.
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Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 23 Feb 14 at 1:33pm
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The thing is that I feel our dad's were better at either buying into established fleets or only buying a new class if others bought in with them. It's our generation that seem to want individuality and boats that are so specifically tailored to them that no one else in the club would ever buy one.
I think there are signs though that the old message is starting to get through. We are seeing a couple of fleets starting to form as people realize it's good to have others in the same type of boat to measure against. |
Posted By: iitick
Date Posted: 23 Feb 14 at 1:57pm
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At our club Supernova has largely supplanted Laser as the boat of choice. Three of those boats have been bought new. The only other boat in the boat park that was a new purchase is a Byte C2.......and I wish I could tell you where that was going to be next weekend.......but I cant yet.... |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 23 Feb 14 at 2:10pm
I'm not sure the evidence is there to support you. I have 1964 and 1984 lists in front of me, and there are more classes, not fewer. Those are classes that have been bought in enough numbers to make the list, and someone must have started them all. One difference is that rather than having a few dominant boat builders with national reach, there were many more little local builders, each one wanting to build their own design rather than pay royalties to someone else. |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 23 Feb 14 at 2:47pm
I'm not sure that's really true Paul- with the groundswell of internet marketing, and modern approaches to branding before it from the likes of Laser, Topper, RS, etc during the 80's and 90's, I'd say our generation has been largely receptive to buying 'en masse'... certainly to the point now where some of us now wouldn't even consider buying-in until we know there's an established fleet. Chicken and Egg... But conversely I know quite a few sailors who find that older, owner led classes seem to offer some kind of peace of mind away from the b**locks of a new class development, or re-development in the cases of some lipstick jobs. I'm not sure what path I'd take if I was launching a new class today, but conventional SMOD a-la-laser seems to have a finite product lifecycle and this is either good or bad depending on your point of view. ------------- |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 23 Feb 14 at 3:29pm
Good to see that boats like the Musto and Moth coming out despite the courses not always being suited, but more important boats that show sailing performance will be supported if the product is good.... despite what is said on here!
------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: pondlife1736
Date Posted: 23 Feb 14 at 3:47pm
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[QUOTE=craiggo]The thing is that I feel our dad's were better at either buying into established fleets or only buying a new class if others bought in with them. Often they didn't have the choice. My Dad's first boat - a GP14 - on the Medway where the club had a strict policy that you had to sail one of the fleet boats. From memory, GP, Ent, Mirror, Solo, Fireball, maybe a couple more but that was it, or you couldn't join, let alone race! They relaxed it later amid falling membership, and the GP was replaced by a Scorpion - a better boat in every way. (OK, IMO). Inevitably we were the only one, so it's that old argument. I take variety every time!
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Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 23 Feb 14 at 7:02pm
That would be an interesting list. Wouldn't be at all surprised to see that many local one designs are more popular now than they were in the mid 80s. Classic boat revival really started in the late 80s, early 90s. Doubt they submit PY returns any more - all the one's I've heard of race OD.
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Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 23 Feb 14 at 7:41pm
| I suppose what I say is largely based on my own father. Sailed at Helensburgh in Solos and OKs back in the 70s when they were the big fleets. At the end of the 70s he joined the Laser fleet at Monklands SC. When we moved to Southport he joined the Grad fleet and then when we moved to Chew Valley Lake SC he joined the Solo fleet. Finally when he joined Thornbury SC he bought into the established YW Dayboat fleet. I haven't seen the same behaviour exhibited by many in my generation, but perhaps I'm blinkered. |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 23 Feb 14 at 9:13pm
Has anyone here actually said that boats that show good sailing performance will not be supported? Some of us (like me) may have said that boats that have more emphasis on being "accessible" will be BETTER supported in general and may be better in terms of maintaining the popularity of the sport, but that's different to saying that no one will support fast boats.
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Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 23 Feb 14 at 9:39pm
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Think plenty have said that Chris that don't have a balanced argument such as yourself.
------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 23 Feb 14 at 9:44pm
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Fast boats are rubbish, too hard to sail, too complicated have to spend all your time practicing, be in the industry, be a sailing god... Yes, we have had all those views and more on here. Often from the same person, though. Of course fast boats will have a smaller catchment - they do need committment, and skill, to sail. Some people have both, and enjoy the capsizing as well, however, and I for one tip my hat to you all. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 23 Feb 14 at 10:20pm
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Well I've often said that fast boats don't seem to be nearly as popular as they used to be, and drawn from that the conclusion that fast boats are unlikely to be the "future of sailing". Anyone who draws conclusions from that about what boats I personally like needs to take a quick look at my profile.
Its just that one thing I've learned over the years is that very few things I am personally enthusiastic about seem to be popular with the mass market, so using my own preferences as a guide to where the mass market might go is quite futile. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 23 Feb 14 at 10:25pm
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What is regarded as a fast boat is now faster and harder to sail than a fast boat was 30 years ago. Then, a Fireball was fast, Now, I read reports where they were in the medium handicap. Maybe fast boats lose out because people who want a fast boat will no longer bother looking at boats like the Fireball, which would be within their skill set, as the perception is that they are "slow"? Then they find they can't sail the whizz bang 3000, so go and buy a jet ski instead?
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 23 Feb 14 at 11:12pm
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Fast boats are great fun, I'm just not convinced they make good club racing choices. And given the cost, I find windsurfing more accessible for high performance sailing, but that's just me. ------------- |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 Feb 14 at 11:53pm
FTFY ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 12:06am
PY listings of some local keel ODs from the '62 YA yearbook, with a few other classes thrown in for comparison. Figures in bracket are the dacron sail PYs, others are for cotton. My list of local classes is in storage (I hope) so I may have misidentified some. National Flying 15 = (89) 90 Int Dragon = 90 Int Star = 83 Int 14 = (88) 89 Nat Merlin Rocket = (91) 96 Nat 12 = (98) 103 YW Solo = (102) 103 Nat Enterprise = (98) 103 FD =(79) National Swallow = 91 Solent SUnbeam = 92 Gt Yarmouth OD = 92 Broads OD, Spitfire, Waveney, Horning REbel OD, Yare and Bure OD all =94 Folkboat (stripped) = 95 Tumlaren = 95 Atlanta = 95 Liverpool Bay Falcon = 96 SCOD = (94) X Class, Essex OD, TEOD all = 100 WOrthing OD = 103 Victory OD = (100) 103 Benfleet OD, Royal Harwich OD, St Mawes OD, Weymouth Falcon OD, Emsworth OD bermudan, Loch Long OD all = 107. Enterprise cruising rig = (105) 108 - what happened to it? Salcombe Restricted Yawl = (104) 108 No Seabird Half Rater number to be found. EDIT - found my '61 and '64 yardsticks, so here's some more local keelboat (IIRC) figures Daring = (90) 22 sq metre = 89 30 sq Metre Windfall = 85 Coronation = 107 Seabird Half Rater = 110 Menai Straits OD = 110 Pleiad and Wivenhoe OD = 109 Scimitar = (97) 5.5 Metre (84) Reedling (90) Essex OD (95) 100 Also to further back up Jim's point, the books these came from also contain info on designs that (AFAIK) never even got PYs, such as the YW Explorer, Poole AB, Kombi, Flying Tern, PI, Tricorn, Peregrine, Top 10, Cob, Tempo, Seadog. There were lots and lots of new designs in those days but there were also lots and lots of boats being built around the world. Many classes were growing at the rate of 1000 boats per year. |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 8:52am
there's some truth in that- the most popular group within our fast handicap class is the Dart 15... so not only a cat, but a cheap, crap cat at that. ------------- |
Posted By: pondlife1736
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 9:28am
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there's some truth in that- the most popular group within our fast handicap class is the Dart 15... so not only a cat, but a cheap, crap cat at that. [/QUOTE]
Ouch !! That hurt! Seriously though, most cats are too big and fast for our pond. Didn't notice any 'high performance' boats out with us yesterday, either. At least the Darts gave it a try.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 9:38am
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Cats - Jet Ski's, basically the same thing. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 10:23am
Plus others not mentioned: Mermaids, Redwings, Yorkshire ODs, Conway Fife OD, Windemere 17 (not OD), Troys, Yarmouth (IoW) Y boats Fairy etc. Some pretty long-standing survivors there. |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 10:26am
really- it's only a toy and someone else's opinion BTW- the reason why larger cats aren't allowed at DWSC has bugger all to do with the space on the water, although I agree and Extreme 40 is pushing it, it's about the real estate to leave them when not sailing and protectionism towards the 'cat fleet'- yep, the defunct Dart 15- a singlehander that you can't put the mast up by yourself  There is a bit of hope though... some forward thinking members were considering getting F-16s and the then committee re-wrote the rules around it permitting them to take part. AFIAK this has not been reversed despite those members following different paths.
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Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 10:28am
Ouch !! That hurt! Seriously though, most cats are too big and fast for our pond. Didn't notice any 'high performance' boats out with us yesterday, either. At least the Darts gave it a try. [/QUOTE]
All the cats stayed ashore yesterday at Datchet, the only 15's where FF15. Was epic fun in the Musto and the 800 was flying too. I think watching the lasers and the like coming downwind that it was probably easier in the musto - especially gybing as we had more speed. ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 10:37am
Cats - Jet Ski's, basically the same thing.  Greame .... I think you forgot boards in your list ... and the newest of the revised and now inclusive list are ... wait for it .... Jet ski's and boards with the motorised ones still the more popular as ever. Mike L. PS - Seriously with recent weather I'm thinking of putting togther a venerable IMCO with what is now a classic max 7.5m rig. Cheap thrills etc ... cannot understand when half the world is building retro cars etc someone does not revive a 'no-pumping' 7.5m long board class with retractable centre-board. Want to boost numbers at Dinghy clubs like in the 80's ? Got to be done really... Anyone else interested ? ... not in place of dinghies of course but in parallel. |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 10:45am
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http://www.konaone.com" rel="nofollow -
http://www.konaone.com No pumping rules... growing in the Dublin Bay area too. On a serious note Mike - they are looking for a good UK distributor/agent... let me know if you want the CEO's contact details- he's a really nice bloke.
------------- |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 10:48am
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The Kona Class is a quite successful none pumping class, the RYA were not interested even though it was the biggest none Olympic international class at the time we tried to introduce it. Despite that we were selling 50 odd boards a year when we threw in the towel on the rest of the line which wasn't selling quite as well. A shame I do recall taking a leaflet around the dinghy show one year offering 'fleets' of boards at £999 complete with rig which was a very good deal, nobody interested in that either.
It is a sad fact that racing in windsurfing is very low on the agenda, they generally all just seek the thrill of free riding with no rules, other than the influx of dinghy sailors in the late seventies and eighties I'm one of very few exceptions to the rule. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 10:55am
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ironic really- I reckon the proposition to take on Kona One (without the exocet baggage) would almost be more viable- certainly it would be something ruled by heart than head, and a passion based business operation. ------------- |
Posted By: pondlife1736
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 11:35am
Yes we have the box rule still. So you can sail F16, Shadow etc, but not F18. Significantly though, nobody has, while the D15 fleet is growing. Why? Well maybe the hiking single sail mode has something to do with it. It makes it accessible to everyone without mastering trapezing-while-racing skills. It's also happier RTC than W/L. To return to the theme of this thread, I'd be tempted to say we need more 'slow' catamaran classes than 'fast' ones. But I don't mean heavy rotomoulded. An updated D15 please, lightweight and less prone to nose-diving. Trouble is, even it's out there, I'd be the only one in my club. Same old story. |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 11:47am
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Why? Simple... I bought a very tricksy, experimental Cherub instead. Big mistake, but that's another story and no one on here needs to hear again.... but when then that went south I didn't reach for a Dart 15 instead, no way, not whilst I have some sense of self esteem left (and it was pretty low after the Cherub experience I can tell you ) Is the 'fleet' really growing? It's been a while since I was active in handicap racing there, however I seem to remember the Dart 15 was a proper stand alone fleet not so long ago, rather than bothering the fast handicap monohull fleet? ------------- |
Posted By: pondlife1736
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 12:28pm
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Maybe. It's certainly grown since I joined 2 years ago. There's usually 4 or 5 D15's out now, so maybe more in the Summer. Not stratospheric but probably the biggest non-fleet fleet in the club. BTW, surely any mention of sailing+low self-esteem is incomplete without mention of the Soslow???
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Posted By: MerlinMags
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 12:47pm
I assume back in the 70s and earlier the dinghy classes were often split regionally in the same way as the local keelboats that have been mentioned. The only example my poor brain can recall is the southern Merlin and the northern Rocket which merged to give you the...oh, I forget the new name now. There must have been others, particularly before the advent of decent motorways as few were towing to open meetings. Could that have accounted for the fact that there was a higher number of classes (even if the number of sailors in each fleet was lower in proportion) ?? |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 1:22pm
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I don't think there's that much need for excessive hand-wringing over a fall of classes listed in the PY figures or not. Are there as many cricket bat makers as there was 30 yrs ago? Are there as many brands of football boots available? In any market, where there isn't 1 or 2 dominant suppliers, then periods of start-ups followed by consolidation are just part and parcel of the 'business' side of the sport. Some classes may have relied on 'craftsmen' to keep them alive, others more related to a particular commercial body. As these come and go, there will be changes. Technology and materials move on too, so some classes are bound to go by the wayside. What's interesting, to me at least, is to see the classes that have survived and embraced new technology (e.g. MRs, N12s, i14s) versus those that survive despite "potentially better" alternatives being available..... the well trodden path of "racing quality is more important than having a good sail to me".
There's plenty of open water around, pretty much everyone is within an 1-2hrs drive of some, so higher performance, higher-speed, isn't necessarily limited by availability of places to sail, more by cost and complication as a barrier to entry, IMO. Boat park space is a PITA, the guys who come up with an affordable stacking system for sailing clubs allowing more boats in less space, will become heroes of 21st century dinghy sailing in the UK. |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 1:45pm
au contraire... it was the best built boat I have owned & I absolutely adored the HD sail. It offers excellent racing- locally at 4 clubs to my knowledge, a local circuit and a national one with plenty of championships that seem only too happy to welcome everyone from either end of the talent spectrum. [TUBE]UDE4xU9CmVU[/TUBE] I simply found that it was a bit too frustrating in very light winds on the long reaching legs we get on our courses. The fact that I hate light wind drifting, combined with being 20kg over the real max for inland sailing one, it wasn't a good combo. I guess if given a fair chance at 'swings and roundabouts' it would be less of an issue, however it was only swings, because as soon as 14 knots of roundabout blows in, I'd rather be on my boards. So given that I was only going to use it in 8-14 knot breeze, (<8 knots and a windsport is pointless imho), it seemed a bit extravagant to hang on to it and all the bullsh*t that comes with it- insurance, club membership fees, 'duties' etc.
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Posted By: pondlife1736
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 2:31pm
Prejudice, prejudice...............  This is sailing as god intended: Light wind=monohull dinghy Medium wind=catamaran Strong wind=windsurfer Jetskis should only be used in winds less than 1 knot, never in the UK, and never anywhere you may be recognised. Apart from that, they're fine.
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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 2:47pm
 I'd leave him out of it... he was fairly prejudiced towards single handers no matter what their mode of power. Didn't you wonder why the Griffin and Unicorn never made it?
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 3:00pm
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Surely going in 2x2 was as doublehanded as you can get? Elephants in the Flying Dutchman, squirrels in the Mirror - the world's first handicap race. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 3:01pm
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And this is sailing after a Faustian Pact... here, in Cornwall, England only a few weeks ago: [tube]lSUYTaoyHzg[/tube] ------------- |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 3:35pm
do you think they were still bitchin' about PY, or did Noah adjust locally? ------------- |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 3:48pm
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Te Unicorns and the Griffins did - they were sailing the Laser 2 and the Hornet, by the way - so God sank them.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 3:54pm
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I thought the Phoenix were aboard the Laser 2, it came back from the flames as a V3000 only to burn out a few days later. ------------- |
Posted By: pondlife1736
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 3:54pm
| Unicorns sail unicorns surely ? |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 3:55pm
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no but the unicorn boat were named after the unicorns... they're currently sailed by gay zebras. ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 4:03pm
| Just been transcribing the 1983 list... 161 classes, some of which I've never even heard of. What was a Myth OD for instance? |
Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 4:21pm
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Myth - Trearddur Bay Myth?
http://classicsailboats.co.uk/index.php?f=data_products&a=1 |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 5:32pm
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I think you'll find the Myth OD never actually existed... legend has it that it was all things to all people, though.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 5:35pm
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a bit like Camille from Red Dwarf? ------------- |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 5:52pm
Yep ... Mindlessly roaring up and down, often right by the beach, hoping to impress the local female chavs ...
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Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 7:07pm
Zebromophobe! ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 8:07pm
That looks like Gwithians beach near Hayle. I've windsurfed there in more normal winds and the waves were pretty powerful and dangerous even then. Can't imagine what it must feel like to get trashed by the waves from storm force winds shown in the video... (Did notice Duncan Coombs in the vid, which is name I've not heard of in many years) |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 24 Feb 14 at 11:32pm
Is there any hand wringing going on? To me the point is that the claim that "sailing's problem is that there are too many classes" has to be seen in perspective, or maybe in perspectiveS. There were as many, or more, classes in days of yore. However IMHO having "too many classes" was less of an issue when dinghy sailing was more popular overall. The perceived problem seems to come about because people tend to forget older and smaller classes, or were simply never aware of them, and therefore assume there were fewer classes in days of yore. We get the same thing down here; people assume that there are more classes today because very few people have any reason to go through another city's papers from the 1930s and see that they sailed classes that are basically completely forgotten, just as (dare I say it) Buzzes will be largely forgotten in 30 years. I've been researching our dinghy history for years and only just heard about another small class. PS re the boat park space issue; how many clubs stack boats 3 or 4 high in sheds and if not many do it, why not?
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Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 1:54pm
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The hand-wringing comment was aimed at the oft-quoted "there are too many classes" postings on this forum, I think we probably agree but we're saying it differently. We have some clever people out there, the materials required are not going to need a midnight raid on the local mil-aero clever/secret stuff factory to produce, even HSE couldn't quibble (much) as long as there are hand-rails in the right places and not too many sharp corners!
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 3:43pm
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I have to say, as a Laser owner, I would not want my boat stacked as it would make is less accessible should I wish to go for a sail if there is a nice day in the week. Stacking is fine for club boats and rotomould/injection moulded but not GRP (in my opinion). I know a few Topper squaddies who would not want their boats stacked and resting on the gunwhales when in storage too. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 4:06pm
Oh right, tell that to any laser sailor. Their boat had been stacked on its end for months before they even got hold of it!
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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 4:09pm
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they're not lasers, they're torches.... ------------- |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 4:47pm
Slightly different....would you want you boat being moved by others so they can get theirs out? Whois liable if they damage it whilst doing so? At least that is a factory environment where they will show some modicum of care when they move things around. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 4:50pm
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one assumes that the price for stacked berth for a regular laser sailor would be cheaper than one for a combi-trailered stratos that sits there until the family vacation to Brittany demands its presence... ------------- |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 4:52pm
If your club charges for a berth space of course..... ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 4:58pm
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seriously- you get a boat space as part of your membership fee? that's pretty cool imho.. ------------- |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 8:23pm
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I want the dinghy park to be inside!
Keep the boats rigged and assuming people shut the door, less chance of storm damage, and you wouldnt need to tie your boat down. Time to build a barn! |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 8:55pm
Not sure I'd want to sail into the wind shadow... ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Cameron Winton
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 9:00pm
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That picture looks like an opportunity for Laser dominoes!
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Posted By: Cameron Winton
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 9:12pm
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That picture looks like an opportunity for Laser dominoes!
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 11:58pm
A club in Portugal that I visited for one event had exactly that, plus 'hired hands' to put the boats in there for you. And that was a year after they had had their revolution! The benefits of a class-ridden society, provided you're in the right class of course (and I'm not talking dinghies!). ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 12:06am
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'95 Laser II Nationals (I met my wife there!) at Plymouth we just pulled the 80+ boats up the seaplane slipway and parked them in the hanger at Mountbatten. Ease the halyards, hoist up your wetsuit to dry and get out on the pop!
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Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 7:49am
Just the arrangement which was (is?) available at Calshot activity centre, you just wheeled your boat into the ex WW2 'flying boat' aircraft hangers and you could leave it fully rigged.
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Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 9:14am
I wouldn't be so sure about that either!
No, these are definitely lasers! The best thing about laser sailors is that they for some reason believe that the strip of red tape that comes across the transom of the boat is there for a reason. People get scratches in it and take it off and replace it. Some even replace the red with black, sometimes pink, depending on their taste. In fact it was only there to protect their boat while it was parked on its end in a warehouse!
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 9:18am
I was sure when I collected my brand spanking new one (many years ago), I went over it very carefully to make sure it was in a condition I was happy to accept. A mate of mine rejected his because it has been dropped at some point and had stress cracks all over it. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 9:52am
The strip on my Laser II was black, and the (Dutch) Laser dealer actually advised me to leave it on for protection from random knocks. I was happy to comply, if only because it broke up the otherwise boring all-white (OK, 'grey') appearance. I liked the matt-black tail panels that 1970's Triumph Dolomites used to sport. I guess that was the inspiration for some dinghy owners to paint their transoms matt black. Never did it myself, but I thought it looked good - contrasting topsides/transom.  c.f. single colour variant introduced to save cost:  ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 10:32am
Or, to get round the windshadow issue, roof over the lake (yeah, something the size of Grafham, why nott? Shut up anyone who shouts "structural engineering"), stick a windfarm on the roof and use this to help power the fans, lighting, air and water heating. Year round boardies and rash vest weather, never a day when sailing is blown off/too little wind. ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 10:44am
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ground source pump for hot showers.... hot showers at grafham, that'd be a first. ------------- |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 10:51am
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the 'solution' I had in mind looked more like a two-tier structure with ramp(s) to the first "floor" so boats can be layed out next to each other in a row below and horizontally or (if there's enough real estate) in a row above, allowing effectively double the density of boats in much the same space as before albeit that the ramp(s) would take up previously usable space. It would be best utilised by boats that can be parked without the mast up, at least on the bottom row. The alternative may be a more simple racking system with a manual forklift for getting boats out of the middle or upper rack levels with the minimum of people needing to be involved. You could pay least for upper and middle levels and most for bottom level, that way the dedicated "come down and sail whenever" crowd could pay for the bottom level - just pull your boat out and go - and those happier to sail when others may be around to help on the middle and upper levels.
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 10:59am
Shape the roof right, make it height-adjustable and use Bernoulli to provide just the right windspeed all the time without recourse to fans etc.  Wouldn't even want to blow off, just push itself down onto the ground/lake... ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 11:06am
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Yeah, but needs nice big heater elements in there to maintain that steady summer feeling. ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 11:40am
'Like' So it'll need to be transparent too, for solar heating purposes. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 12:08pm
| And will block UV so it will be healthier too (apart from getting rickets of course!) |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 12:23pm
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Got to make a careful choice of materials there. I recently looked it up and in the case of glass, I seem to recall, it blocks out the tanning UV wavelengths but allows other, harmful ones to pass - just what you don't want. Conservatory dwellers beware! ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 12:30pm
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How high will the roof be? Just wondering if Thames A Rater sailors will be needing to stay away? And will the downforce roof be able to turn so it is always facing the wind? I'm sure this roof will need to be made out of something more hitech than glass - carbon re-inforced clear polymer with built in photovoltaic cells. Alternatively, a lowtech giant version of one of those garden "sails"/awning that sail makers actually can make a profit from. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 12:58pm
I would say that it should be at least twice, probably three times the height of the tallest rig, otherwise you might start getting a reverse wind gradient at the top of the rig which would make setting the right twist on the sail extremely confusing |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 1:01pm
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We're certainly getting there with this idea. Next step, funding - maybe one of Mr Putin's friends for the completeness of folly. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 1:30pm
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I was thinking Larry E might help - after all, it is wing shaped, and we know he likes wings. Mind, we can sell the leccy we produce back to the National Grid, and make a profit that way. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 2:08pm
I'd worry about baking to death in the summer ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 2:44pm
It needs to be polarizing, so it will darken in bright weather. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 2:50pm
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sounds like a recipe for legionnaires disease... s'pose it's no worse than some of the STDs passed around sailing clubs in the 70's. ------------- |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 3:34pm
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pfft! Decent filtration and treatment system in place, condom machines in the changing rooms. Sorted.
So consistent warm temperature year round, no need for wetsuits, no need to derig (the boat park would be, within this monstrosity, seperated) and wind strength that can be dialled in to suit. Could even have gust/shift generation built into it to keep it interesting (but that can be switched off for Level 1 beginners). Lighting means evening sailing year round. What could possibly go wrong?
No clue what this has to do with the number of classes, mind, but I think I've rather derailed that circular discussion ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: pondlife1736
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 3:57pm
Reckon this would start a campaign for alternative 'real' sailing in natural locations, to be promptly banned by the authorities under H&S legislation! 
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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 4:05pm
fail.... the cherub fleet would still use an old bit of cut-up RS800 spinnaker and some Harken McLube. ------------- |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 4:47pm
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ponders if a condom might be the 'answer' to how to band a dinghy spinnaker so the first hoist goes super fast.... just think, if you could pack the whole kite into one of the bl00dy things... make a hole in t'other end, off you go, it's even lubed for your chutes pleasure .....
side benefit; could mean less effort for the helm to get it up first time around, prolonging the max effort available for later.....
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 5:03pm
| RRS55 would be a problem... |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 5:09pm
save it for later... duct tape the hole up, or for added security find a mothie and borrow some epoxy. ------------- |