Another breezy one - another spanking.
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy Yarns...
Forum Discription: Tell us your sailing stories
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11334
Printed Date: 24 Jun 25 at 10:49am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Another breezy one - another spanking.
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: Another breezy one - another spanking.
Date Posted: 02 Feb 14 at 4:42pm
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It wasn't that windy and as a matter of fact as thing eventually turned out, quite pleasant to race in, but it started of moderate then turned quite gusty as a squall came through so I managed again to turn a lead into last place in an irons fest and sailing so bloody slow up wind. Off wind I'm a rocket ship, but I can't seem to make it go to weather over powered, all my normal tricks of stuffing it, fall apart in the transitions and it got so bad, I'm being mullered by a topper.
Worse still, it's a young lady in a topper, and she is all over me like a bad rash. I swear she even winked as she went by and she might as well have said 'try and catch me big boy!' as she casually leaned into it and her perfectly set sail creamed up wind whilst mine is backing like a biatch, with leech shot away and we're going nowhere fast. But rather than quit, which was on my mind after the third spell in irons, I followed her, and like the time when i followed fraggle I got inspired to better effort and eventually pulled back, over took her and a couple of solos that had also gotten ahead and finished, without a capsize which a few others managed to pile in, yet still beat me, i'm sailing that slow upwind, I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, for sure weight or lack of it is probably an issue, the boat just stalls in the turns and won't get going again, almost like the flow won't re-attach to the sail. It's got a very aft control so in survival mode you're too far back down the boat and I'm sure that's something to do with it, not getting far enough forward once I've tacked, but it ended up quite enjoyable, it's the windiest race I've finished and not stacked and the sun came out towards the end, so how was your day? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Replies:
Posted By: pondlife1736
Date Posted: 02 Feb 14 at 5:00pm
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Brilliant day. Sunny & F4 gusting F5/6. Even managed to keep ahead of the IC (rare for me). Too knackered to finish second race though!
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 02 Feb 14 at 6:48pm
| Don't believe you should be stuffing it. Will pay better to keep it driving. Got to keep the speed on all the time. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 02 Feb 14 at 7:00pm
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The thing is, even fully sheeted out, I can't hold it, it's right up on its ear, the only way I can manage is to be pointing really high, I know as a boat everyone tells you to sail it free, but to kick it off the boom has to be way out, then the risk is touch down as it goes up on its ear.
So then tacking really high to really high I'm just begging to go into irons, and sure enough.. I'm sure there probably is a technique and you're right jim, speed is your friend (got loads of it off wind and am really dialled, not a hint of disaster), but it's upwind, just as a matter of info what should you do with the kicker in totally overpowered? Logic says, don't have any, last thing I thought I needed was kicker, but without it windward performance sucks. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: pondlife1736
Date Posted: 02 Feb 14 at 7:07pm
| Only just started with my EPS (and wasn't on it today) so not really qualified to comment, but can't you depower with the cunningham ? |
Posted By: mongrel
Date Posted: 02 Feb 14 at 7:08pm
| Try lots & lots of kicker, outhaul & downhaul, flatten the sail as much as you can. Use 2/3 centre board, sail free, ease the kicker a touch for tacks, and be fully committed to the tack when you go for it. Experiment with settings and practice! |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 02 Feb 14 at 7:09pm
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I got stuffed upwind by the EPS again today! Looked pretty damn good to me. With lots of fetches (the first race, believe it or not only had 5 manouvers per lap. 1 gybe, one tack, 2 bear aways and a luff up. No beat, just 3 fetches, a run and a broad reach. Nearly gave up through boredom, but had a boat close behind to get away from. Phantom, then EPS - fast boat course. Mind, last week when it was windier, the EPS was blown off the water while the Phantom was loving it, so I know where you are coming from with the upwind problems. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: LASERNUT
Date Posted: 02 Feb 14 at 7:17pm
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Not enough cunningham! Plenty of kicker and play that main sheet till your arms fall off! ------------- Sailmakers https://morgan-sails.com/ |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 02 Feb 14 at 7:19pm
iGRF sounds to me like you're just not strong enough to pull on enough cunningham as well as being far too small for such a manly boat 
Sail a couple of inches freer and pull your board up. If you are de-powering above the water then you probably need to be de-powering below it as well. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 02 Feb 14 at 7:39pm
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b**locks, I got it round and a few younger and more experienced didn't, I just didn't win and instead came last on handicap.
I had maxed the downhaul, but free'd it off the sail just wasn't driving, but I didn't max the kicker, why do that? It tightens the leech when i want the leech free to twist off and dump power don't I? I must admit I don't mess with the board, it's a bitch to pull up anyway and I've got this hose pipe thing fashioned to act as a traveller to keep all the gubbins ahead of the mainsheet pulley and cleat and it's over the top of the daggerboard. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: mongrel
Date Posted: 02 Feb 14 at 8:08pm
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Pulling the board up will definitely help, especially to stop stalling thru' tacks. Try maxing the kicker upwind, it will flatten the sail and take some load out of the mainsheet, making it easier to play in gusts/lulls. As far as I know, a lot of singlehanders tend to use lots of kicker (or mainsheet tension with travellers) in strong breeze upwind. I think you really have to set up with a flat sail, and not worry too much about the leech, the mast should bend in the gusts to relax the leech.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 02 Feb 14 at 8:19pm
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You want plenty of kicker to make the mid leech stand up because of the load through the battens/cloth so you can point, even if you ease the sail a bit, and you want loads and loads and loads of downhaul to flatten the top and slacken the upper leach so the top twists off in spite of all the kicker. And you just have to keep it flat, don't let it get anywhere near on its ear. Keep that mainsheet moving moving moving.
And yes, board up a bit will help some. You can leave it just a tad up for the whole race in those conditions, you'll just need to be more positive in the tacks. |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 02 Feb 14 at 9:06pm
That's a Whitefriars course the way I remember 'em!
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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 02 Feb 14 at 9:36pm
Ref Kicker: I'll try and start at home, on your windsurfer, where you don't have a kicker. So you crudely (and I may be a litttle out of date having not put a modern board rig together for a while - but if I'm out of date then just cast your mind back a few years) have two ways of flattening (aka depowering) the sail, once it's on the mast (but noting that your rig does not need to be as tuneable because of the many sails of different sizes you have in your quiver (thus ensuring that you can always have the wrong one on!): An outhaul - which reduces the distance between the boom end and the clew, taking curve (though there may not be much anyway) out of the sail on the widest bit of it. We'll ignore this in comparative terms since the function of the control is the same. A downhaul - on your board sail this has two effects when you tighten it: It pulls the 'spare' cloth in your laminate sail forward, and downwards. It also, through that cloth (and because there isn't spare this is a major effect) compresses the mast in to a curve which again pulls spare cloth forward, thus flattening the sail in general. As an associated effect the upper leech of the sail is opened, principally because the movement of the mast tip back and down in compression creates 'spare' cloth in that top bit. Now to your EPS. Which has but one rig and therefore must be tuneable to a wider range of conditions, by stretching the sails or by bending the mast. The downhaul now works in a subtely different way. In the days of dacron (and even more so with cotton, as the wind increased the 'spare' cloth (which did exist) would be blown backwards, creating a very draggy sail with a tendency to generate weather helm since the power was all in the back. The downhaul was used to control this effect. In harder mylar (tho some older ones will need downhaul to correct the stretch) sails it is used to flatten the sail by artificially reducing the luff length and therefore making a mast 'absorb' more of it's spare luff (aka luff curve) for a given amount of mast bend. But it does not (except in a few classes) actively bend the mast in the way that the windsurfer downhaul does. However it does open the upper leech, but not to the same extent. So what bends the mast: The kicker. Pull it on until you're in control. Your leech, as you say, will be tight with the potential to create some weather helm, but you can counteract this by pulling the spare cloth forward again - with the downhaul. It that doesn't work then I'm afraid it's time to heel the boat to windward, or get that board up a bit. What happens if you don't pull the kicker on (This may seem familiar): Your arms have to work hard because every time you sheet in to any decent amount you'll be doing the hard work of pulling on the leech without teh help of that massive purchase from the kicker. Power and weather helm will be binary. The leech will not start working gradually as you sheet in and change its angle across the boat, but will kick in with a bang when you pull the boom downwards. And you'll screw into wind. This effect will be particularly bad at slow speeds and in to and out of the tack. Especially as there will be no power in the leach to help you tack. And when you do have to point too high because you way as much as one of those pink wafer sandwich biscuits (with a bite taken out) you won't have a leach to help you maintain height. LOADS OF KICKER go on try it!
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 02 Feb 14 at 9:53pm
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OK, best explanation yet.. Thanks, that was exactly what was happening and things only improved a bit once i banged some kicker on, but by then the wind had moderated back to a 4-5.
As to Windsurfers, we have the additional ability to cant the rig further to weather and our rig twist is entirely determined by luff tension, with of course inducers holding foil stability. PS I didn't notice the 300 on the water today.  ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 02 Feb 14 at 9:54pm
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The only time you want no kicker for open leach wind dumping is in perfect storm survival conditions...
------------- Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard" Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile" |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 03 Feb 14 at 9:56am
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Yup, the only reason to let the kicker off is for the same reason you do when you get to the shore - to stop the boat falling over when totally overpowered. As sarge says, kicker and cunningham work in tandem. My advice to junior Laser sailors in survival weather is to pull the cunningham on until you can't pull any more on, then pull some more on anyway... No wonder Laser sails wear out so quick. At leat the EPS has a sail that can be dealt with somewhat more subtly. But it will still need feet braced to pull enough cunningham on. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 04 Feb 14 at 8:40am
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Sure sound like insufficient kicker is your main problem General rule then. If you are struggling with too much power upwind, pull the strings harder, harder and harder; kicker, cunno and out haul. Bend the mast and, if you can, rake it back. If you have to ease the kicker during tacks in order to get under the boom, then so be it. Do this right and you can reduce the power generated by a sail to a small fraction of what it was and life suddenly seems a lot less of a struggle ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Feb 14 at 9:02am
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Many moons ago, before the advent of full batten and cam race sails I experimented with a kicker (and a topping lift) on a sailboard race rig, it did nothing to improve performance, in fact quite the contrary, so I guess my reluctance to fully accept it's features and benefits is because of that, that and the Alto with it's rear sheeting seems to be less kicker reliant (got my best open mtg result racing round that island without one)and I can't say I used it much with the 500.
I also seem to end up with Gnav's which don't do the job in the same way as a proper kicker, bend the mast horribly, distort the sail awfully and don't seem to have as much feedback as to when enough is enough. Since I've been down the lake, I have been trying harder to do all that kicker on/off stuff and pull all manner of stupid rope, but, that EPS has the most silly controls that don't function well when the racks are set in the inboard position. I also have another issue in that ever since it blew off it's trailer one of the rack pin things has jammed, making it impossible to adjust the racks out which kind of compounds the problem when it's breezy, having to use them in their fully inboard position which is exactly counterproductive. Like everything dinghy, there has to be a better way, I'd love to have gotten my hands on the C2 rig to see if that works any better. Oh and ref windsurfing, we do have fixed sail size OD racing, I cut my teeth doing it, but sail cuts were permitted to evolve over the years and the classes that didn't died away, and we also had our equivalent of development classes around fixed sail sizes, very rarely did changing down do anything much more than keep you in the game and only really worked if everyone else downsized in stupid conditions. I must buy a small sail though, just to see what if any difference it makes although I suspect only marginal improvement up wind and I'll lose all my rocket ship downwind performance where I can at least get back into the race. They love it when I suddenly appear as if from nowhere just inside them within three boat lengths of a mark rounding.  ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Feb 14 at 9:23am
You know what? You're absolutely right that is what happens, although it's kind of fixed rather than variable so the lower leech is always on, which isn't the case with a boat rig, so yes that's it, I've got it now. That was why my crude boom vang attempts didn't work. Half the time I'm trying to logic what's going on in dinghies to what I used to reason back in the late seventies early eighties, because of the difference in rig development I've obviously been through but dinghies didn't (not saying either is right or wrong, just different) ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Feb 14 at 9:51am
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Dinghies tried the wishbone boom on several boats, partly to get rid of the kicker, partly because they were trying to jump on the windsurfing band wagon. Up to a point, it worked, but with only outhaul (by raising and lowering the boom on the mast), very simple cunningham and aft mainsheet to control things, it was pretty much impossible to fine tune the sail to the weather once the breeze was up. Given the amount of time I spend fiddling with kicker tension in boats with unstayed masts, it isn't surprising that the wishbone rig was really only good as a play boat, not for serious racing. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Feb 14 at 11:20am
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tbh I never saw the point of dinghies using wishbones other than for economy, but naturally I have to refute the suggestion that our far far far more sophisticated rigs are only good as 'play' boat fodder.
If you had spent as much time with both as I am becoming increasingly acquainted, then you'd realise what you're missing. Complex isn't always best, if something can be achieved with fewer controls then surely that's better, especially if the control is more effective. Less to frig around with = more time focussing on the important things, which to me have always been elsewhere than the equipment. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Feb 14 at 11:59am
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I'm not sure the 80's soft windsurfer style rig on the Tonic was what I'd call sophisticated. I did put a decent windsurfer sail and mast on at one point, but the clew height was far too far up to attach the mainsheet to, really, and I wasn't in a position to get a sail specially made. The other problem was the downhaul pressure needed, too - the hull couldn't have taken it. Was fun experimenting, though. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Feb 14 at 12:34pm
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No more than the 70's soft Laser style rig is today, the difference is, windsurfing long since ceased insulting it's consumer base with such anachronisms. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Feb 14 at 12:38pm
 Makes the Laser sail look pretty OK... But I do agree with what you mean. Mind, the way the windsurfer sail has developed isn't really the answer for dinghies, and I think the fully battened square top rigs on many very fast dinghies isn't the way for slower boats, either. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Feb 14 at 3:51pm
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Illustration of my last Raceboard sail, 9.5 sq mtr, cuben fibre weighed 2.7 kgs and the illustration shows the various amounts of twist including a little hook the leech feature in the head for very light wind and pump response.
The day I see a dinghy sail with that much range, I'll raise my coffin lid and turn over.  ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 04 Feb 14 at 8:04pm
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if there's one regret for selling the Solo, it was not taking enough photos of that HD Sail... honestly the perfect symbiosis of art and science, an utterly lovely product- and has really made me question ever buying another sail for any board or boat from a sweatshop brand ever again. I'll admit to being tempted to join in on the D-One fun, but not whilst the sailmaker is restricted. It's big no now for me. ------------- |
Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 06 Feb 14 at 5:57pm
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I echo the comments on kicker... its primary function in a boat like the EPs is not leech tension but mast bend. The sail is cut with both luff curve and broadseam to create its shape. The way to flatten that sail is to take the component of the shape which is created by the luff curve out of the sail. Pulling the kicker on really hard, I mean really hard, will bend the mast and flatten the sail. Once this is on hard then pull the Cunningham on hard to open the leech of the sail.
I am surprised you haven't realised this before from your experience in the 100 where in 90% of the conditions you pulled the kicker on to the absolute max and in some cases wished you could pull it even harder. Perhaps that's where you were going wrong with that boat too? What purchase do you have on your control lines on the EPs. A standard laser uses a 15:1 kicker and up to an 8:1 Cunningham. When it is windy even the biggest of laser sailor can be seen sat in the bottom of the boat with their feet against the front of the cockpit using their legs to squat the Cunningham tight. It really takes that much force sometimes! |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Feb 14 at 6:27pm
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You physically couldn't put that much tension using the current controls, they are so badly positioned if the racks are not out, which they're not at the moment cos they're jammed and tbh the Gnav doesn't look the sturdiest bit of kit. And no I certainly never applied that much of anything, kicker or downhaul to the RS100. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 06 Feb 14 at 7:09pm
| Sounds like that's why you struggled so much in that first nationals we did then! I couldn't pull enough of everything on! Get the racks fixed and let us know how much purchase you are running and we might be able to help further... |
Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 06 Feb 14 at 7:49pm
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Just looked at some photos to remind myself of the EPS setup and see that it only has lowers that attach at the boom. Basically the gooseneck is fixed, which makes me think that the kicker might not be quite so effective on an EPS. I imagine a lot of the effort is trying to overcome friction and the relatively poor geometry in the gnav. |
Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 06 Feb 14 at 8:24pm
| Loosen the lowers then...? |
Posted By: pondlife1736
Date Posted: 06 Feb 14 at 8:41pm
| There aren't any other shrouds, it's basically an unstayed rig. Not sure what the purchase is (8:1?) but the EPS GNAV bars seem to be a weak point. The whole setup looks much less robust than say the 300. |
Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 06 Feb 14 at 9:28pm
| I suspect that for that rig you want the leeward lower to be just slack most of the time. That should mean the mats is not restricted in any way and truly acting unstayed. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 Feb 14 at 10:30pm
The lowers really aren't lowers at all in a functional sense. What goes on with that rig is that its designed as a conventional unstayed rig in a deep hull, much like a Finn or an OK, except that instead of the deep hull with the top bearing being the deck, its a shallow hull, and the "deck" bearing is a ball bearing supported in place by what look like lowers but really ought to be thought of as wire deck beams!! |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 07 Feb 14 at 8:54am
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so, they're essentially a wire 'space frame' to use 90's terminology we don't hear much these days? ------------- |
Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 07 Feb 14 at 9:10am
| My point still stands... the longer the bury measurement of the mast the stiffer it will be. I would imagine that having these shrouds (spaceframe whatever you want to call it) slightly less than bar tight would make the mast feel like it was being supported over less of its length. This would allow more mast bend. If this is not the case then I still suggest more kicker. If you break the gnav then you've probably pulled it just about hard enough. Plenty of lube on all the gnav parts too should make things a little easier! |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 07 Feb 14 at 11:13am
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If its not being raced in class, then maybe replace the gnav with a conventional kicker? As much purchase as you want / need then...
------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 07 Feb 14 at 11:20am
| Don't replace it with a normal kicker or you really will never bend that mast. If you are worried about the GNAV arm then buy a stronger one from selden and fit that. http://www.seldenmast.com/products/dinghies_only/booms/gnav_system.html |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 07 Feb 14 at 11:44am
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A small sail is the answer, the one that was designed for people my weight, but to date I can't find other than by buying another complete boat with two rigs, a small sail and mast top combo which will presumably have their luff curves matched.
As to the lowers, they do act like a deck or space frame, but with the advantage of being adjusted for rake, I really need to make them single wire adjustable, at the moment the only control is via an adjustable forestay I think I might have fashioned after the original broke and dismasted me mid race, forcing the most embarrassing moment of my entire waterborne career, being 'rescued' on a puddle by two girls in a coracle, me, who has sailed the high seas around the world without major incident rescue wise. This lake humbles even the biggest ego... ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: DaveT
Date Posted: 07 Feb 14 at 5:31pm
| Making sure your existing controls work effectively and knowing how to use them would seem to make more sense? No point f(*&ing about with rake and switching rigs when your not even getting the full range out of the existing setup is there. |
Posted By: Blue One
Date Posted: 08 Feb 14 at 1:00pm
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i see there is a eps for sale at whitfriars. grf, why not buy it for spares? or better still can we not get rupert to buy it and the two of you can do some boat on boat testing. |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 08 Feb 14 at 6:03pm
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sail today Duncan? Offshore at Draycote- I got blown to crap ------------- |
Posted By: Blue One
Date Posted: 08 Feb 14 at 6:57pm
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No chance!
Sam and I went to draycote today for a walk and a coffee. Was that you leaving at about 3 o'clock?
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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 08 Feb 14 at 8:52pm
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Yep- about then, had enough for one day. I struggled to get off the beach on the smallest kit I had- 4.4m wave sail and a small ironing board suitable for Oompa Loompa sleeves... then changed up to my 'other woman'- a really special board- with a it more sail. Got off the beach fine, but as soon as I was in the main gusts I got absolutely annihilated! All good fun... No really it was, I will try convincing myself of this.... ------------- |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 08 Feb 14 at 8:56pm
Link? How old, how much? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Roger
Date Posted: 08 Feb 14 at 9:38pm
http://sailingdinghies.apolloduck.co.uk/listings.phtml?cid=106&sti=67 Plenty of bits being offered, even a brand new small sail in one add, although some are a few months old, and I guess the Whitfriars boat is the first one. |
Posted By: Blue One
Date Posted: 08 Feb 14 at 10:35pm
Sorry I don't have details, just seen it on the whitefriars Facebook page.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 09 Feb 14 at 9:33pm
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That is the boat which has been stomping on me - dunno why he is selling. No price on the ad. Apart from the cracked stb wing, it is in pretty good nick.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |