how to slow down a laser
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11148
Printed Date: 15 Jul 25 at 3:08pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: how to slow down a laser
Posted By: Reuben T
Subject: how to slow down a laser
Date Posted: 17 Oct 13 at 9:58pm
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I don't sail for results, I sail for a good tactical battle, and would rather come last having had to fight for it than finish first without competition. However I have recently moved and therefore had to change club. unfortunately I have found there to be a far lower standard in the laser fleet here than I am used to and have won almost every race with huge leads of up to 32 minutes on the next laser. Therefore I want to somehow slow my boat down to get some competition without removing any of the technical aspects of controls (just leaving the downhaul maxed out all the way around the course kind of defeats some of the skill of sailing), neither do I want to use a radial and be underpowered (in my opinion there is nothing worse). Even if I was going to be here for more than a year I wouldn't be able to move into a phantom where there seems to be a good standard of racing as I am far too light. Any suggestions as to how I can slow my boat down, or otherwise get some competition or am I doomed to a year of disappointing racing
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Replies:
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 17 Oct 13 at 10:03pm
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Why don't you instead pass on your skills to the rest of the fleet and bring them up to your standard, that's what we windsurfers had to do to our dinghy sailors, then when there was good competitive racing, some old hands returned to show us we were nowhere near where you could be with even more practise.
Provided that is you know how and why you're faster than the others. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 17 Oct 13 at 10:12pm
| use a radial rig? |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 17 Oct 13 at 10:20pm
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If your winning by 32 minutes in what would normally be a (I guess) 1 hour race, you would probably be best using a 4.7! That equates to something mental like the difference between an rs300 and an ok dinghy. They must be really sh*t, you are really good or we have not had the full story! ------------- |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 17 Oct 13 at 10:22pm
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Certianly a strange request. You could try sailing blindfolded, or with your hands behind your back, or some other very strange thing, but really the only way tobe slower is to be in an under powered boat. Hence the radial makes sense. If you don'tlike the feel of it, chances are you won't like the feel of anything else that slows you down, either - why would you? GRF's idea is much better. Run coaching sessions as often as you can get people to come out with you. Not only will their sailing improve, but you will get a greater understanding yourself of just how doing different things to a boat changes speed in different conditions. Might even turn into a career. Or, if you really are that quick, ask if you can race the Phantoms in your Laser, or go to Opens for the competition, then start an Olympic campaign. You could always sail for Ireland. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Reuben T
Date Posted: 17 Oct 13 at 10:23pm
I have already got involved in their racing training on Saturday mornings so I am doing what I can in this area already for those who want to improve and I doubt I they will improve far enough in the year I will be here for
extra expense of buying another rig and I can't stand being underpowered, I would rather get a phantom and be hopelessly overpowered
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Posted By: iitick
Date Posted: 17 Oct 13 at 10:24pm
| You can have some of my bone marrow. That should do it. |
Posted By: Clive Evans
Date Posted: 17 Oct 13 at 10:30pm
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if you are winning by that large a margin then even if you could slow your boat down you wouldn't get much of a tactical battle surely? 32 minutes implies that the other sailors must be virtually beginners and therefore pointing in the wrong direction most of the time.
I once tried starting 5 minutes (you could try more) late at the start to see if i could catch the fleet. Maybe sound out some of the sailors first when i did it half thought it was a good idea half that it was patronising!
32 minutes though! my club ranges from 1 years experience to multiple national champions at the front and it was 16 minutes across the fleet last weekend ------------- Spiral 816 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 17 Oct 13 at 10:31pm
Well you could always do what our Laser sailors were doing when I first engaged with them, trail feathers and catch some mackerel whilst you beat them. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Reuben T
Date Posted: 17 Oct 13 at 10:33pm
the 32 mins was only exceptional race where I was the only laser to recognise the wind was dying on the left of the course and there was a lovely lift on the right usually I only have 3/4 - 1 leg lead.
I start working at 8:30 daily and finish 5:30 at the earliest, then over the weekend I do the coaching on Saturday and racing on Sunday, So I don't have much opportunity to run extra coaching sessions. we only have one start for all the classes, but the phantoms are good so they get ahead of me leaving me with no other boats of any class near me.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 17 Oct 13 at 10:35pm
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So you can't be that good if you don't beat Phantoms, our top laser guy beats them over the water, regularly. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Caveman
Date Posted: 17 Oct 13 at 10:36pm
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GRF is spot on. Why not organise a couple of training sessions for your fellow Laser sailors? I know that when I was a novice my sailing improved massively thanks to the advice I received from the guys at the front of the fleet. Also it would do wonders for your popularity in a new club. Besides that, a radial rig looks like the only really practical option. Sailing in under-powered conditions may not be the most thrilling experience but navigating up a beat and successfully nailing every shift can be very satisfying. The only other possibility might be to give the others a head start?
------------- Enthusiasm>Skill |
Posted By: Reuben T
Date Posted: 17 Oct 13 at 10:39pm
the forecast for this weekend is quite lively but for next weekend I think I will take my mackerel line out, if there is no race I may as well catch something
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Posted By: Reuben T
Date Posted: 17 Oct 13 at 10:45pm
I'm not saying I'm very good, i'm just not getting competition from the other lasers. at my old club I would sometimes beat the a phantom on the water but here there are only two who are both pretty decent
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Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 17 Oct 13 at 11:01pm
| If you aren't prepared to build the Laser fleet at your new club, then your only choices are to move to another club that has a competitive Laser fleet, or change fleets. Even if you are not the perfect size, changing fleets might be your best choice. In my opinion too much emphasis is placed on being an optimum weight for a given type of boat. At club level it rarely matters. |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 7:36am
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Deliberately start late (though within the time limit), then set yourself the challemnge of catching them up.
------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: MerlinMags
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 9:42am
| Tow a mattress round the course. |
Posted By: iitick
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 9:58am
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Here we are a forum of failures, has beens and armchair sailors* when a star appears among us. * with certain exceptions.
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Posted By: hobbiteater
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 11:42am
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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 11:43am
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you need to change clubs... simple. BTW - where is this muppetfest... it sounds idyllic for some of us on here?
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Posted By: iitick
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 11:47am
| It must be a pond for very small fish! |
Posted By: SUGmeister
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 11:49am
Showing my age I remember prior to Y&Y.com, SA etc the only sailing forum of any consequence was the Compuserve Sailing Forum. Julian and Frank Bethwaite were of many notable names who posted there. This exact problem was discussed to level out training imbalances, Julian told us what they did and that was to tie various thicknesses of cord under the boat from shroud to shroud. If you're this good then try tieing two lengths of mainsheet under your boat attached to the mast. Guess it doesn't need to be too tight. ------------- Simon SUGmeister I wondered why the baseball kept getting bigger. Then it hit me. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 11:52am
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I did swap clubs for similar reasons (barring the sailing god bit) when found that being the only Firefly racing, against Toppers on one side and RS200's and faster on the other left me in the middle with no similar speed boats to judge myself against. Actually, to be fair and not taking the piss for a moment, it doesn't take much difference in experience to be in this position. Sailing similar speed boats against similar speed helms is much more satisfying than being all spread out. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 12:00pm
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This thread seems to highlighting the pitfalls of fleet sailing....perhaps a new thread should be started. Is it curtains for fleet sailing? If you can't change clubs, change classes buy a boat where you will be able to mix it with others in the handicap fleet. An rs300 is a great boat for racing against phantoms, forgetting the py and just racing for line honors. Even if it's only for a year, you can always buy another laser in 12 months when you move back to your other sailing club ------------- |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 12:19pm
nice one matey... of course Rueben would far better off sailing with effectively a personal handicap in a boat no one else races. Does it come with a gennaker, facebook group and a hefty price tag too? |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 12:23pm
Not sure I get your point James. Plenty of people racing d1's just not in a format that suits you. Hefty price tags is relative, Facebook groups are the future and assy kites are for people who can see the value of down wind tactical sailing.... ------------- |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 12:31pm
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I wasn't specifically refering to the D1... but if you want draw conclusions and a comparison to what I wrote then fair enough. How many is 'plenty' now by the way... I see you got double number on the de facto forum dead class metric.... did they all own their own boats this year? http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/class/D-One/attendance" rel="nofollow - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/class/D-One/attendance
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Posted By: Fraggle
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 12:39pm
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If you are missing out on the more tactical side of racing have a look at the UKLA regional circuit for your area. I would have quit laser sailing years ago if not for these (we knew the finishing order before launching at my then home club). Still do them now, despite being at a really active club with great laser racing, as I enjoy racing different people and getting to different venues. ------------- |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 12:40pm
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Yes everyone is a boat owner and annoyingly we were well short due to a number of sailors not being available for the nationals weekend. Our fault as we had an issue with the initial date so had to change last minute (relatively) class is going and growing very well thanks, not perfect by any means but getting there. Ps we both know you were aiming it at the d1 Jimbo.... ------------- |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 12:48pm
good to know. still not as popular as the other option though is it
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Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 1:07pm
| Just like Audis aren't as popular as vauxhalls :-) |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 1:10pm
but few of us race either, so the analogy is totally flawed.
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Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 1:15pm
| Damn you and your superior intellect! |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 1:19pm
teehee- I think not... just well versed in this boring ol' friday afternoon routine. one for Russ to post back in the future sometime...  |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 1:21pm
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Absolutely right James, nothing better than either a 100 or d1 bashing on a Friday afternoon. Shame really forum has Avery little traffic nowadays! ------------- |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 18 Oct 13 at 1:24pm
| we're on a higher level now though- the riff raff can't keep up. No one is bashing the boats per say, just the absolutely pathetic take up for either of them this far after their launch.... it's a self reflective critique.... and curtains for asymmetrics. Another thread perhaps? |
Posted By: NickM
Date Posted: 19 Oct 13 at 10:21pm
| Reuben, give your knees a break for a year or two and buy a Solo and see if you can beat the lasers on the water. |
Posted By: Jon711
Date Posted: 19 Oct 13 at 11:10pm
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Possibly a silly suggestion, and I await being shot down.....
Remove the bung for the first lap, or even just remove the bung before launching, and replace when sailing, the extra weight of water should put you nearer the other boats, you may need to sit on the transom to get some water in at first, but, it will flow. If you have ever sailed a Laser with a hull containing water, it is far more challenging and will also improve you skills... Just a thought ------------- Blaze 711 |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 20 Oct 13 at 11:42am
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Sailing a flooded boat is no sillier than most of the other suggestions, or the concept in the 1st place...
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Reuben T
Date Posted: 20 Oct 13 at 9:43pm
| i admit i did consider this, however the resin will slowly absorb water and therefore be heavier even when emptied |
Posted By: Jeepers
Date Posted: 20 Oct 13 at 10:39pm
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"...I am used to and have won almost every race with huge leads of up to 32 minutes on the next laser."
Frankly mate, yer rubbish. I expect to win every race by 50 minutes in a 30 minute fleet race. You need to experience apparent wind chum, although apparently you may already have it, but misunderstand how best to express it. Burp. |
Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 21 Oct 13 at 5:31pm
Did you really say that? ------------- Rodney Cobb Suntouched Sailboats Limited http://www.suntouched.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.suntouched.co.uk [EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk |
Posted By: Xpletive
Date Posted: 21 Oct 13 at 7:46pm
Perhaps they're all trying to make their new club member feel welcome by racing with their daggerboards half up. No? Got a reason why that's no good for you to try? i bet you have......
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Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 21 Oct 13 at 7:59pm
Did y'all miss the point? Broken knees would be a perfect handicap 
Oh well, back to the book now! ------------- Rodney Cobb Suntouched Sailboats Limited http://www.suntouched.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.suntouched.co.uk [EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk |
Posted By: Blackie
Date Posted: 21 Oct 13 at 8:00pm
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Why don't you join Starcross for the winter. We have some great Laser sailors and we're just down the road!!! You'd be very welcome to come down and have a race one sunday to try it out... ------------- B14 - 764 Admiral Trailers |
Posted By: Xpletive
Date Posted: 22 Oct 13 at 11:12am
http://www.fossc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.fossc.org.uk
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 Oct 13 at 11:22am
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If it is Frampton, then I know some pretty good sailors there. If they aren't in the Lasers, then swap classes.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 22 Oct 13 at 12:22pm
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of it is frampton then a 32 minute lead then you'll have lapped them and be willing with them again. where's the problem? ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: hobbiteater
Date Posted: 22 Oct 13 at 12:37pm
| i think frampton must be the club he moved on from given the results on their website |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 22 Oct 13 at 7:38pm
| Judging by the results, Rueben used to sail at Frampton, but now sails at Lyme Regis SC. I also note that his results are typically 5th-9th in handicap races. Is this teenage exaggeration or are the Lasers at Lyme over 30 mins off the pace. I'll leave that to everyone to decide for themselves! But he got beaten in the two races he finished, by another Laser! |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 Oct 13 at 8:51pm
So his plan is working already! ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Xpletive
Date Posted: 22 Oct 13 at 9:12pm
| "O Rueben, Where Art Thou?" |
Posted By: Jon711
Date Posted: 22 Oct 13 at 10:28pm
I take your point, but to be a bit pedantic, the resin will NOT adsorb water, the fibres of glass may (And it is adsorb, not absorb!). However, if the hull is correctly consolidated in construction, then you should not have an issue - but we are. Are talking Lasers here, so you may be OK, but also maybe not. You could maybe flush, a layer of epoxy around the inner of the hull, should not increase weight too much, and any measurer will never spot it!, and the little bit of extra weight from the epoxy, will assist in slowing you down!! Win, Win, Win.. No boats I built have ever adsorbed through the glass, but I always made sure I consolidated the materials properly..... Jon ------------- Blaze 711 |
Posted By: Reuben T
Date Posted: 22 Oct 13 at 11:03pm
correct about club movements. I said at the beginning that I don't race for results and that I race for a race so the fact that other boats beat me on handicap isn't a concern for me, my concern is that on the water there is no-one near me. as i have aid already, the 30 mins was only one extreme example they are usually only a couple of minutes behind. i have actually been beaten by another laser 3 times in lyme regis ; the first was my first ever race on the sea after my puddle, the other occasion was a visitor so I wont have his competition again
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Posted By: Reuben T
Date Posted: 22 Oct 13 at 11:13pm
sorry I have got a reason, positioning of the board is part of the skill of sailing so I see not adjusting it as similar to sailing badly, I did consider it though
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 23 Oct 13 at 8:46am
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The Bethwaite 'string around the hull' idea proposed earlier has to be the answer. Going too slow? Use thinner string. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |