Nick Craig
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11140
Printed Date: 15 Jul 25 at 12:23am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Nick Craig
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: Nick Craig
Date Posted: 13 Oct 13 at 6:34pm
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So what's the story here? I thoroughly enjoyed reading the interview, and well impressed by the results in that Endeavour doo dah,
I don't remember seeing that name in any of the Olympic results, why is such an obvious talent constrained to a class of ageing alcoholics and other reprobates? What's the history, I'm not given to hero worship, and I've not really comes across the name other than in some odd references here, it seems like some genuine talent is going to waste, or has he been there done it much earlier and happy to enjoy racing for the sake of it, in which case even more kudos is due. Nothing I respect more than someone holding down a proper job yet still sticking it now and again. Anyone care to give a brief history without embarrassing the guy (does he even read or post here?). Excellent result though don't you agree? Oh and lets not forget his crew in this instance, are they always together? In which case my bad for not acknowledging Alan Roberts in the header, I'm sure he must be equally sh*t hot. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Replies:
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 13 Oct 13 at 7:03pm
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Has a normal job, a young family that takes up time. Won the OK world's a few times, b14 Euros phantom nats,d1 nats as well as a whole host of other things. Thoroughly nice chap as well. The diet of person you like to win things ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 13 Oct 13 at 9:49pm
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You read the interview, but missed the bit where he says why he chose not to pursue the Olympic/pro path? ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: L123456
Date Posted: 13 Oct 13 at 10:39pm
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He had a dabble in the Finn a few years ago and did pretty well for a non-pro. I think it is clear how talented he his but to be an Olympian is a career choice these days, perhaps some choose not to make a career out of their hobby.
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Posted By: L123456
Date Posted: 13 Oct 13 at 10:41pm
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To add to that we have a number of very talented sailors who have for what ever reason never been to an Olympics. Ian Southworth, Jim hunt, Geoff Carveth, Ian Pinell and a few others. Pro sailor is a career now.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 13 Oct 13 at 10:42pm
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Well tbh when I did it, it was a cursory interest since he was one of the runners and riders in the Endeavour, I guess I didn't take it all in, I did try to go back and find it for a bit of a re read, but do you think i can, it moves so fast that home page, so much chaff, it blocks the radar and anyway I'd rather have some anecdotal stuff from any of y'all having met or raced against him, knew him as a kid, where he came from etc.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Mark Jardine
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 9:18am
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Graeme, Nick's been around for a while on the dinghy scene (do you ever read the news on this site or do you just stick on the forum?). We at the YJA (Yachting Journalists' Association) hold him in high regard - see http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/161136/Nick-Craig-wins" rel="nofollow - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/161136/Nick-Craig-wins . The other finalists the year he won the YJA Yachtsman of the Year were Ben Ainslie and Dee Caffari! Yet he's still known as 'Specky' (and an extended version of that name) by the Enterprise crowd! As L123456 mentioned, there are many very good sailors who have chosen not to go the Olympic route due to work/time/family/lifestyle choices. I'd definitely add Ben Vines to that list. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 9:56am
Pretty much stick on the forum and if anything comes up refer back, hence coming across the interview, (which I now can't find to re read). This guy got six bullets in a high grade fleet of one designs on a weekend which appeared to me to have mixed conditions. Getting 6 wins in a One Design, normally means the conditions suited the body weight and/or ideal condition of the individual, but there seemed to me to be a fair old selection of good crews in that line up, plus tide, plus wind variety, so something special must be going on (or he got consistently lucky in a fast boat), I'd read that name somewhere before so am interested to know how he got to this place and why he's sticking to it, I also believe that in sailing, it's not always about youth and late developers who do things for the sheer joy of doing it make far far better competitors than RYA squad fodder. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Mark Jardine
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 10:00am
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He actually got 7 bullets... in a row. Interview at http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/172467/Interview-with-Nick-Craig" rel="nofollow - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/172467/Interview-with-Nick-Craig If you type 'Nick Craig interview' into the search box at the top right it's pretty easy to find... |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 10:01am
Doh  thanks Mark, 7 bullets, woh now I'm even more impressed.------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: marky
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 11:17am
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Alan Roberts (Nick's crew) is bit of a star as well. He won the Endevour trophy as a crew last year as well (with a 200 sailor)... A couple of years ago, as a crew, he won the RS200 Nationals and the X boat class at Cowes both of which had over 100 entires. He is a very good helm in his own right as well and is often seen winning at his home club of HISC in various classes - Merlin, I14, RS200 etc Alan is a really nice young lad and is studying at Southampton University whilst cramming in as much sailing as he can. He is currently part of the Artemis Sailing Academy and 48 hours before this weekend Endevour Race raced in a double hander race from Cowes-Weymouth-Cowes in winds of 25-40 knots. He won that one as well!
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Posted By: Clive Evans
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 11:38am
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I always think Olympic level is quite a bit above winning nationals and worlds. That's not to say the great sailors who were listed earlier in this thread couldn't have got to that level if they had chosen that path. I've probably done 20 races against that list and lost all but two badly and both of the wins were complete flukes involving them being OCS and having to go back 7 wins in a row is awesome stuff! ------------- Spiral 816 |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 12:09pm
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Olympic level appears to need a drive, singlemindedness and sheer level of pigheadedness (as well as the willingness to sail one boat, day in, day out, for years) that most of us would consider rather abnormal. Of course, it also requires a huge amount of natural talent, but I'm pretty sure many make it to Olympic level with less natural ability than Nick Craig. Mr Craig appears to enjoy the rather different challenge of sailing lots of boats stupidly well whilst fitting it in around a real life. Wish I had half his ability, and a 1/4 of his drive. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: marky
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 12:27pm
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 12:41pm
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Olympic level involves putting up with folk telling you to do things in a way you might not otherwise do it, if you can or have the time to dedicate to it and don't mind folk telling you what to do, then fine put up with their sh*t.
But it's been my experience that free thinking folk driven by their own ambition rather than East German style regimes do better. I thought the crew must be good and there's a clue to it in Nicks interview, the difference a good crew makes is unbelievable having sailed with one once recently I couldn't believe the increase in boat speed. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 12:44pm
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I wonder if Ben Ainslie or any other of those Olympians from Weymouth had taken the helm at that Endeavour with the crew of their choice wether the outcome would have been very different, personally I doubt it very much. I bet that race with the tide is tactical as hell and one thing they don't teach Olympians very well (at least not in the bit I know about)is tactical and tidal stuff. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 12:50pm
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I met Nick at the D1 event this summer, which he won. He seemed a lovely young man but what I really liked was his willingness to share his knowledge and his unassuming manner. I'm very sure I did see Ian Pinnell in a 470 way back when, likewise Steve Cockerill and countless other national champions. But they were up against the likes of Paul Brotherton, John Merricks, Ian Walker, Andy Hemmings etc. Tough stuff. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 12:51pm
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Nick does benefit from having a good flexitime arrangement with his employer, which explains how he's able to swan off to so many events involving weekdays. He's also got a very patient wife... he turned up at a b14 nationals less than a week after she gave birth ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: Clive Evans
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 12:52pm
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I can categorically state that Ben would get 8 firsts assuming the mast he was given didnt break, the sails shread or someone forgot to empty the hull of the waste from when it was used at Glastonbury in the summer It is a very tricky spot to sail but Ben has olympic medals from Savannah, sydney harbour, Athens, qingdao container terminal and Weymouth so I think he can handle the crouch/roach combination ------------- Spiral 816 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 12:59pm
So what you're saying then he wouldn't screw up the entire event get trashed in almost every race then have his ass saved by a bit of team racing by a mate in the medal race then? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Dougal
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 1:07pm
I'm fairly sure he's not saying that... ------------- What could possibly go wrong? |
Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 1:16pm
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Of all the topics to use in order to provoke responses; Ben Ainslies lack of sailing ability is pretty weak. Although the attempt itself is at least noteworthy, well done. ------------- |
Posted By: Clive Evans
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 1:22pm
Ha ha all good banter :) interestingly enough I think the 'hairy Dane' at London 2012 was an amateur with a regular job? Or am I mistaken? ------------- Spiral 816 |
Posted By: Chris Turner
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 1:47pm
| Ben has competed at the Endeavour....Didn't wing eight races....Think Geoff Carveth won that year... |
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 1:51pm
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Nick is a great sailor and a great guy too. I think he may have captained his team at Cambridge too, so brains too! I heard or read that when his Dad died young, he used it as a cue to live each day to the max and do as much sailing as he could. I suspect an accommodating wife helps too! I would say that a) Alan R will be a big key to this year's dominance - multiple emphatic 200 champion crew - 200s have been one of the hottest national fleetsin the last decade IMO b) I don't think the Endeavour is what it was 10y ago - not everyone turns up, many go for a laugh with a mate c) The sailing itself is, I hear, quite different i.e. very tidal, short races, odd boats, so having plenty of goes at it / experience of that very environment will be a big advantage. c) Nick had a year or two in Finns, and I think got mid fleet internationally a few times. Bear in mind that he had been dominant in the OK before that, which is a very similar boat technically. I think he generally gets beaten in the Phants by Charlie Cumbley and Matt Howard who were, in their day top 25% in the Finn at a fair few international champs, which is another level up in quality. Bear in mind that the majority of the sailors in olympic class competition are school or university age, combining training with study - some with full time work. Its not all full time athletes, and the top few do anything but hemorrhage cash whilst chasing that dream. But I certainly feel that Nick's success also comes down to his versatility - he spreads himself around a lot of classes - whereas a lot of the best olympic guys are more one trick ponies - although they generally adapt quickly if they do try other stuff. |
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 1:52pm
| True - wasn't Bart sailing with him too? Suspect they would have done better at the endeavour in RS400s at the time than Geoff would have in olympic laser sailing circa 1998 |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 2:14pm
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I think it's pretty even in the phantoms Dan. nick has been nat champ beating Charlie and also Jim hunt and a few other quite useful helms at the same time. not ever seen matt Howard in a phantom but that's not to say he hasn't,I may have just missed it.
nick isn't afraid to go to smaller opens too and it is appreciated by the locals especially as previously mentioned about his willingness to impart knowledge to others ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 2:29pm
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Ah ok.
Suspect he does a lot more sailing than Charlie these days mind. |
Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 4:09pm
Errr sorry!? Which bit do you know about then? You are a tactical expert I know, it's easy doing tactics from the back!
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Posted By: GybeFunny
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 4:15pm
No need to wonder, Patience/Bithell who won the 470 Silver at Weymouth did the Endeavour last year (just a few months after the games), they didnt win! Didnt Nick learn to sail on Frensham Pond? I guess if you can race well there you can race well anywhere!
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 4:15pm
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 4:18pm
The tidal challenges are a little limited! |
Posted By: L123456
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 5:15pm
I think you are getting a bit carried away. Ben has done this even and didn't win. |
Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 5:18pm
------------- Steve B RS300 411 https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 7:16pm
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It's not so much the winning, it was the sheer and total dominance of the 6, no 7 bullets, no one does that in a fleet heavy with talent sailing the same sort of boat, it is a remarkable achievement.
OK it can happen in small fleets like the Olympic fleet which anyone who has sailed at the very highest level would tell you is easier contested than say a Worlds (that's a proper Worlds I mean, not some half arsed dinghy worlds with 30 UK and a smattering of Europeans). Anyway, clearly I remain very impressed with both he and the young crew dude they now have my attention in future, I shall follow their activities with added admiration, here have a clappy icon 
Do they do that Sailjuice series? No wait, it wasn't them with all that BS about the sails was it? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 8:45pm
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Nick raced a D1 at last years' Bloody Mary.
As others have said he's a really nice chap. When my boy robbed Roscoe's D1 for a race at Oxford early in the year while the other D1s were about, Nick just popped over to say hi to the boy and told him to shout if he needed any help/advice on the water. Cameron just stood there open mouthed in shock as this true legend grinned at him!  ------------- |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 9:12pm
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He will be back racing at Oxford over the winter bootscooter. Probably one of upto 10 that will be joking you in the Alto ------------- |
Posted By: Finn sailor
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 9:31pm
| Hi, new to posting on this forum but thought I might offer some info on the Nick Craig vs Olympic sailor debate. Nick started sailing Finns in the winter of 2004 at a national ranking event in Warsash. I seem to remember he came 12th ish. He must have worked hard as he than promptly won the nationals the following year, (though the GB squad were not present). He than pretty much threw himself into Finn sailing for the next 3 years attending GB squad training sessions on a number of occasions. In 2006 he competed in the Holland Regatta coming a creditable 38th out of 72, in 2007 he sailed in the Semaine Olyimpique coming 49th out of 69. He finished off 2007 with an exceptional 20 th in the Europeans though the field was slightly weaker than normal due to the absence of some top sailors including the uk's big 3 (Ainslie, Scott and Wright). He was a great amateur sailor in the class and a thoroughly nice bloke. I am pretty sure however that Nick would be the 1st to admit that the very top international Olympic class sailors are at a completely different level with regard boat speed, starting, wind knowledge and yes tactics. This is not to detract from him as a superb amateur sailor, his record in national and international non Olympic classes is in my view unsurpassed, I have only brought this up as I feel many sailors do not have a full appreciation of just how good the Ainslies, Scott's, Goodisons and other team GB sailors are! |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 9:45pm
Ace!!! Can I have a go this year please? Will exchange you my slot in the Alto...  ------------- |
Posted By: NickM
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 10:00pm
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Good post . I still wonder to what extent a very good "amateur" sailor could improve by being exposed to full time professional conditioning, training and coaching - and provided of course they had the single minded dedication to go with it. Matthew Syed has written a book ("Bounce") arguing that in top lever sport it is more about nurture than nature.
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Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 10:07pm
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In other sports they refer to "trainability"
Believe me the youth system does turn out a lot of kids who can hike out or whatever but don't have sailors brains. Nobody gets to the very top at senior level internationally without having a) a real sailors brain b) the enthusiasm to love it even if you are doing it 200 days a year plus to the detriment of the rest of life c) real physical talent d) a lot of dedication. All of that has to be in place. |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 10:37pm
Interesting and informative post which ignores that part of the challenge for Nick in the Finn was building a suitable physique. And that being full time is a massive aid to that. See posts above for nature/nurture and trainability. You can only lack so much of each before you can't cross the divide.
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Posted By: Clive Evans
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 10:46pm
what year did he do it? Results on the website only go back to 2005 i think
I notice that in 2005 paul goodison sailed the event with an olympic crew and he too didn;t win so i stand corrected ------------- Spiral 816 |
Posted By: Finn sailor
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 10:52pm
| True, weight and strength conditioning are a huge part of medium to heavy wind sailing in Finns as they are to a lesser degree in all classes. I did however race regularly against Nick and the top squad boys during that period and whilst Nick would beat the younger transition squad boys in light airs 50 percent of the time. He very rarely beat Ed Wright or Giles Scott in lighter tactical conditions. Ben Ainslie was so good he would only dabble with the Finn in uk events preferring to do and usually win the odd class 1 international and of course all those gold cups whilst in the main concentrating on match racing. He only really took it seriously (by his standards) on the 2yr lead up to an Olympics. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 14 Oct 13 at 11:30pm
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If you look at last years Merlin Nationals, an Olympian won it, but it was not a walkover. This year Nick beat the people who were serious challenging said olympian. But different people excel in sailing in different ways. Only the full time olympic types probably reach their full potential. Perhaps many amateurs had the raw talent to be olympic standard but not everyone is singleminded enough. Several leagues above my level, but I only sail for my own pleasure. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 15 Oct 13 at 12:14am
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Sailing well is as much a mental thing as it is physical and I believe you can OD on the physical and practise side to beyond the point of boredom, you lose your edge because frankly you've done it so often you take stuff for granted.
I watched every race at Weymouth and I can't say I saw any of the UK team at anything like what I would call being 'in the zone'.(Except that young radial lass she was having a blast) Whatever was going on for Nick and Alan I bet they were sure as hell in the zone up at Burnham and it's a far trickier piece of water to sail than Weymouth and yes I have sailed it. And that Finn racing? Kinetics, every bit as kinetic as my world became, yeah it's sailing, but not the sort of sailing where the old skills win. For me, the Dane won that Olympic event, hands down, this double point medal race bollox is just pure distortion to enable pro guys to regain temporary focus for effect, its not the sport I love. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Dougal
Date Posted: 15 Oct 13 at 8:36am
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I thought for a moment you were going to celebrate British success then. But no, pulled it out the bag at the last minute. The planets are back in alignment and the spiritual world is happy again... ps just how did the Dane win when BA was given the gold medal? ------------- What could possibly go wrong? |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 15 Oct 13 at 9:09am
Never heard the term moral victory Dougal? Frankly I was ashamed that he lost, it may have been another win that sailing types love to think is acceptable, but that guy was absolutely storming and deserved the medal having it match and team raced away in one race that counts as double is not a fair result in my book. Any more than big money putting in advanced control systems mid event to win is either, so no the Ben Ainslie brand name doesn't cut it with me. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 15 Oct 13 at 9:34am
| you stand more chance of convincing us you were right about the V-Twin than getting us to take off the rose tints when it comes to Serben. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 15 Oct 13 at 9:44am
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Did I suggest I was trying to convince anyone about anything?
I'm simply stating my view which for some unlucky, badly wired brain control system reason, tends to be contrary to the popular view. So it, my brain, thinks a chap like Nick Craig is a better sailing competitor than Ben Ainslie, that is all. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 15 Oct 13 at 10:11am
If we are talking about moral victories on the water then I would have a huge cabinet full of trophies GRF! ------------- Needs to sail more... |
Posted By: Finn sailor
Date Posted: 15 Oct 13 at 10:27am
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Taken from the horses mouth. Nick, a member of Frensham Pond SC in Surrey, tends to play down his talents. He’s a couple of years older than Ben Ainslie and slightly taller – perfect Finn size – but doesn’t believe he would have cut it at Olympic level. Does he have any regrets about not having a proper go at an Olympic campaign? ‘No I don’t, really. My boat of choice would have been a Finn and there’s no way I’d ever beat Ben, let alone the likes of Ed Wright or Giles Scott. Ben’s in a different league to the whole of the Olympic scene, which in itself is a different league. ‘My three years of Finn sailing was good as it put that [the notion of an Olympic campaign] to bed in my mind. I could see how far I’d got, how far I had to go and even if I’d been doing it every day, I’d never have got there. I was kind of a late developer. When I was 19 I wasn’t that good, but Ben had already won a silver when he was 19, which is unbelievable – I was still messing about at university trying to work out how to fleet race properly.’ - See more at: http://www.yachtsandyachting.co.uk/sailing-stars/nick-craigs-success-by-andy-rice/#sthash.UlIDRnKC.dpuf |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 15 Oct 13 at 10:40am
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BA can hardly be blamed for the points system in place at the olympics, and of course he will use it to win - wouldn't you? I can't say I like his ultra aggressive sailing style, but maybe that is why I'm a club pond sailor and he is the champ. As for the crack about putting new control systems in place half way through the AC, I think you may have been listening to too many internet rumours. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Dougal
Date Posted: 15 Oct 13 at 11:18am
To be honest, I didn't see it that way at all. My kids played at a 'non-competitive' rugby festival the other week where every game was scored 0-0. They still knew the scores of every game and worked out which team had won. Try telling them that a team they beat 20-0 deserved to win. The world is a competitive place and sailing, fortunately, has a set of rules that works (I hear a can of worms opening but go with me on this for the moment) and allows a winner to be decided by those rules. Now unless BA cheated (which he clearly didn't as there were no protests and he was followed by judges and TV cameras) then he won morally and officially. Come to think of it, BA took a penalty for hitting a mark which he said he didn't because your mate and another bloke said he did. In my book that definitely gives BA the moral victory. Perhaps there should be 'moral judges' on the water as well who can give penalties if one sailor is deemed to be a little bit nasty to another? Can you imagine it? "Penalty Ainslie, iGRF's mate has capsized and you didn't wait for him." Oh God. Why am i wasting my time on this?  ------------- What could possibly go wrong? |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 15 Oct 13 at 11:46am
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Agreed the mock mark hitting thing was wrong (It was part of the reason we dumped it from windsurfing, everyone pulled that stunt now and again at the top if only to wind up whoever was in front and very often the mark would move as if being hit purely by the board/boat wake) and yes it derived the don't make me mad comment, lucky they did, up until then he'd lost, so I fully take your point.
But, at that level folk get really tight, I'm not going to say races get fixed, but the competitors themselves have a view as to what the outcome should be and if some authoritarian intervention should not go the way it should a sense of fair play can be brought to bear even by the deepest of rivals, at least it did back in the day and I've no reason to believe these guys are any less honourable than we were. Hence my view that the friendly nudge toward the end by someone with no chance of the medals was what it was and could have been the result of that incident, but whatever, we all view these things from different perspectives based on our own experiences, I'm not asking anyone else to hold my view, but without different views we don't get discussion do we and what a boring place the world would be.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 15 Oct 13 at 1:16pm
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1. It is well known that Sir Ben is not apreciated by all competitors
and some race officials.This video may explain why - please count the
rule 42 infringements!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV4lcgmt8Zg I do realise that rule 42 has been tightened up since the video was made ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Dougal
Date Posted: 15 Oct 13 at 1:55pm
I do agree with you on this! ------------- What could possibly go wrong? |
Posted By: iitick
Date Posted: 15 Oct 13 at 3:07pm
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I am laid up with what |i really believe to be flu. The only thing I can concentrate on is Top Gear on Dave. In consequence i have not followed the current posts re Nick Craig and Olympians. Let me add this, a few years ago the 470 class association entered the Southport 24 in a GP. This team was comprised of the Olympic 470 team. Normally one of the big GP clubs would win, Bolton, South Staffs, Bassenthwaite etc. The 470 team won from Bolton by 2 laps. That was about an hour. Amazing. Back to TV now......traffic cops.
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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 15 Oct 13 at 3:23pm
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A British Olympian team went to the Wilson Trophy this year - they did not do well. They did admit to being blown away by the standard of boat-handling, close quarter tactics and rules knowledge.
------------- Gordon |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 15 Oct 13 at 3:26pm
Sailing aside for the mo, i.e. the broader context that is life. Following rules that work (working or not depends on the purpose of the rules.) does not automatically mean a moral outcome.......so yes he won officially. |
Posted By: NickM
Date Posted: 15 Oct 13 at 10:59pm
|
In an earlier post Daniel said "Nobody gets to the very top at senior level internationally without having, (among other things,) a real sailors brain." Interesting point, but what does that mean and can it be trained or does that have to be innate? I suppose key is the ability to compute and react correctly to lots of different simultaneous inputs: effects of tide, wind shifts, positions of other boats, tactics, rules, special judgements etc. Doesn't that come with practice and experience?
BA is said to have great skill in smelling out where the most favourable wind is. Special aptitude or practise? Some are brilliant at tuning a boat. Does that come through hours on the water testing and marking different settings or does it come through some innate skill? The "Horse whisperer" was said to have an unique understanding of animals that were all individuals, but boats are inanimate. "Boat Whispering" is a training manual! Of course you need commitment and determination to succeed at the highest level, but I think I'm still with Matthew Syed on this that it is more nurture than nature. And as with many sports, the younger you start it the better you are going to be later on if you stick with it. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 15 Oct 13 at 11:11pm
|
To my mind its a mixture of both... I used to sail forward hand in my two handers and observed a number of helms, and there was no doubt in my mind that some were naturally talented above others.
However natural talent is not enough without the training, and training is not enough without the natural talent. Regrettably as a helm I don't seem to have that much natural talent, which is quite irritating in that I reckon I know roughly what to do, it seems to look right from the outside, but somehow the boat doesn't go as fast in the right direction as some of the others... However I don't find that precludes me enjoying sailing the boat. |
Posted By: ohFFsake
Date Posted: 15 Oct 13 at 11:18pm
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I think it was John Whitmore that pointed out that if sailing were something that depended largely on physical aptitude then we'd all sail noticeably better on one tack than the other!
My belief is that it is a sport that requires a well developed intellect, and that "aptitude" is largely about whether your brain fits with dealing with all the complex problems that have to be prioritised and solved. Some people seem to have an intellect that is pre-programmed to solve these problems, and clearly they have a head start on the rest of us! |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 15 Oct 13 at 11:23pm
Er 
doesn't everyone then? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 15 Oct 13 at 11:47pm
everyone except you Graeme, you sail badly on both tacks. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 15 Oct 13 at 11:57pm
One day wing wang, One day, even if i have to come up and bother some wood to get you... 
I have a sailors brain, just don't happen to have a dingyist's body to make use of it properly... ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 Oct 13 at 8:51am
|
I'm pretty sure I have a "natura"l aptitude for sailing, over a limited set of conditions. I'm great on confined waters, lightish winds - which are the conditions I grew up with. Put me on the sea in waves, wind and tide, and no amount of natural aptitude can make up for a combination of lack of experience in such conditions and the scardy brain freeze I seem to have. But even in the conditions where I'm OK, I know I could be better, if I was willing to spend more time doing things over and over again, like I get the Juniors doing. But without company for it, I get bored too quickly. We have Junior group, ladies group, sailability group, but no group for decent sailors wanting to do something other than the 3 races per Sunday and then go home. I've taken more and more to going out playing on a Sunday, not racing - so many more tacks, gybes, whatever else needs work. Having rupertson in the same type of boat helps for that, but a group would be much better. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 16 Oct 13 at 9:36am
|
I agree - sailing has become a strange sport in that nobody, except an elite group, train. When I sailed keelboats in France we only sailed 4 or 5 regattas per year. The rest of the time a small group of boats we went out with a coach and trained. Hard work, physically and mentally but after 50 tacks and 20 spinnaker hoist/gybe/takedown under the critical eye of a coach we felt we had improved. The first beer tasted fantastic! Club racing does not, in general, improve your skills. ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: iitick
Date Posted: 16 Oct 13 at 10:50am
That could be me talking there Jim.......sadly.
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Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 16 Oct 13 at 11:02am
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I like to train, but it's something I have always done, so I guess it's force of habit - and probably why my body is giving up bit by injured bit. I will shortly be starting the usual autumn Saturday morning race training sessions. These are for all comers, and although it's mostly the fresh out of L2 adults that come, as well as keen juniors, we do also get some regular racers. What we don't get are those who consider themselves top of the pecking order - those who go to opens, sail at the club and do quite well. Unsurprisngly the mid fleet racers and juniors who do come to training are slowly but surely nipping at their heels. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: iitick
Date Posted: 16 Oct 13 at 11:02am
|
I heard someone from the National tennis training thing talking the other day and he seemed to say that the available young sportsmen/women have to be captured early before other sports nick them. This implies that talent for sport is a universal skill awaiting training for specific disciplines. I cannot believe this is true of sailing. If it was what other sport or pastime shares the skill?
|
Posted By: iitick
Date Posted: 16 Oct 13 at 11:19am
| You know Nessa I don't think I am worth training. I would be wasting the instructors time. I can sail, I get round without hitting anything or causing damage. I beat all the beginners until they improve and beat me and sometimes I snap at the back of the bottom half of the middle fleet. The boy shakes his head in disbelief and disowns me. Training should improve me but I do not have a 'sailors brain' to improve. Luckily sailing has so many other facets that interest me. |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 16 Oct 13 at 11:52am
|
there will inevitabely be competition between sports. Which is why many of the top rugby schools here in Ireland make rugby compulsory. Sailing has a particular problem especially for boys in that, unfortunately, sailing at elite level has become a sport for small people. There is no elite heavyweight class (the Finn is at best a light heavyweight). This means that many boys know early on that they have no future in the sport at a high level, so the keen sportsmen gravitate towards sports that offer them a future - rowing, rugby, basketball... especially as these sports have been targetting suitably sized boys. ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 Oct 13 at 12:07pm
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Just how big is Ian Percy? Looking at him sitting at the table during the AC expert bits, he looked like he could have done any of the big boy sports - rugby, pro wrestling, whatever. The big guys might have to leave dinghy sailing behind, but there is a whole sailing world out there for the muscle-bound which us small chaps will never be able to compete in. Nessa, if it is like our club, the top of the pecking order racers don't take part in the training aimed at the improvers simply because the coaching is set at too low a level in their eyes, and maybe they can't see that it is what they bring and how hard they work that will raise both their game and that of the fleet. Probably what would make it work is to do what the Lightnings did for our early season training, and split the sailors up. A few of us were doing harder exercises with more stringent feedback from the National Champ, whilst the others were getting slightly more basic stuff from the Traveller Series winner. We all learned stuff. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iitick
Date Posted: 16 Oct 13 at 12:22pm
| Gordon.....that is exactly what I was saying but the other way round and for girls. You mean we need an international class to accommodate super heavyweights? GRF.....drag it out! It has a purpose! |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 16 Oct 13 at 12:28pm
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Ian Percy 1m87, 92 kg So not that big - same weight and 1cm shorter than Johnny Sexton - Ireland an Lions fly half. So, in a modrn rugby team Ian Percy would be one of the smallest players on the pitch. And he was competing in a class that was criticised for being for heavyweights. ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 16 Oct 13 at 12:32pm
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iitick - we had a superb ballasted dinghy for heavyweights before they spoilt it by limiting crew weight. As a result it is now no longer in the Olympics. The Star emains the ideal boat for heavy weights (over 100kg) sailors. Know any others. So if yo have a 12/13 yr old boy, already 6foot and growing visibly - where is his future in affordable sailing! ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 16 Oct 13 at 12:40pm
You need to point me at this mythical class that suits small people, I've yet to find it, (without climbing in some coffin with a sail.) ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 16 Oct 13 at 12:41pm
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well according to grumpf he's a mummy's boy who won't be allowed to sail anyway. But this is true and is happening more and more. We need more boats like the megabyte, the D1, etc, not because people are getting fatter, but because they are getting bigger, or at least the boys are. The girls here are now complaining that once they come out of the topper squad, if they aren't big enough for a radial and don't want to double hand there is nothing for them. The truth is almost all olympic sports cater only for phsyical freaks; people who have a physique that puts them outside the norm maybe by virtue of size, maybe because of a freakish metabolism that allows them to run fast orver short or lon distancves, whatever. For some that is what makes the olympics special - these people are seen as the elite. But for some this is seen as unfair because it excludes thema dn their average body or brain. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 16 Oct 13 at 12:42pm
Drag what out? You're feeling better I'm pleased to note... (better clean that screen where you just sneezed ) ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 16 Oct 13 at 12:48pm
Missed the point there wing wang if they sail they probably aint mummies boys, but generally mass population of which 99.999% recurring don't actually sail, typically sailors emanate from the private sector which is a little less liberal in their schooling.. (I.e. they make them do competitive sport). Even kitesurfers, are soft, with the advent of the Bow kite (A kite with big depower which is viewed to be super safe, it aint but the sport is marketed that way) lots of pasty soft palmed city boys took up the sport, why only the other day on the kite forum (yes I go on there as well, slightly different character mind) I caught them talking about shampooing their wetsuit and aghast at the thought of peeing in it.. What can I say? Case proven. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 16 Oct 13 at 12:53pm
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iGRF, When you are 1m93 and 115kg (as I was when sailing competitively) all dinghy classes are for small people! So to answer your question - the Laser, the 470, the Finn, the Fireball, all of the RS boats.... ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 Oct 13 at 1:24pm
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Big and small are very subjective, aren't they? For me, a Laser is for big people, for Gordon, for small people. In reality, the Laser has been such a success partly because it is pretty much right in the middle of averagely fit average body weight.
2 handed boats are a rather different story to singlehanders. By finding a 2nd person who is the right size, options open up for more body sizes. The 505 and the FD cater for some pretty large sailors, and I'm sure that there are more modern boats that do, too.
Lets face it, though, if the market was there for a singlehander to carry more weight than a Finn, then why isn't it out there, and popular? The Megabyte is a sideshow, the Phantom only big in the UK. And neither would cater for the truly huge, no more than the Finn. Which comes first, the boat, or the demand?
What would a boat for, say, 110kg plus people have to be? 16 feet Long, pretty wide, plenty of hull volume, 12 or 13 sqM of sail? Not too tippy, or that much weight getting caught in the wrong place will surely cause a swim? The only boats I can think of which come close are the OJolle and the singlehanded scow (MC?) in America. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iitick
Date Posted: 16 Oct 13 at 1:29pm
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Thank you Greaeme, is that how you spell it? for rejoicing in my partial recovery. I hope I will feel ok for my Racehorse riding lesson this evening and the following pub. Before my life 'hung by a thread' or Sunday I took an enterprising young (36) sailor to Fleetwood (Lancashire) don't go there, where we bought a very nice Byte C2 for £1250......I keep telling you! I thought thr V twin may form the basis of a Stephen Klishko heavyweight dinghy? I am going to start a new post.
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Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 16 Oct 13 at 2:32pm
Perhaps the Musto fleet at Datchet has a different approach then. We have 15 boats there, but you wouldn't know it to look at the race results as you probably have to look hard to find half that number. That's not to say we don't sail, but we have all seemed to make much better progress by just going sailing with each; impromtpu starting practice, tacking duels, close quarters gybing etc. I don't really miss club racing that much to be honest, having too much fun 'training'. ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 16 Oct 13 at 10:20pm
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Interesting point about talented sailors who do not go the Olympic route, Mathew Syed in excellent book "bounce" would have you think that there is no such thing as natural talent, what is required for top level performance is 10,000 hours of directed training. The more I consider this the more I think he is right, and I suspect that Sir Ben meets this criteria. Syed also talks of lumping groups of tasks in to one, which an expert can recognise and react to, such as tennis players anticipating a shot by the initial leg movements of the server, I wonder if BA's inspired reading of wind pressure at SF is the same process.
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Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 17 Oct 13 at 2:35am
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You think that 10000 hours will make you an Olympic champion?
Of course not, it is just a prerequisite alongside the other necessities. Plenty people have done 10k hours and are still average. Just well practiced / burned out and average. Many do the 10k hours over 3 or 4 years in order to discover they haven't got it. The other point is valid though and can be lumped under "talent" but could that particular skill/technique could be taught. Sailing being the sport with the most variables has plenty of avenues like that for the sailor with a bit of panache. I'm of the opinion that there is a fair bit in sailing, esp the more nuanced stuff like going downwind in a classic singlehander, that can't be taught. |
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 17 Oct 13 at 2:39am
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If I did 10000 hours of football do you think I'd be Lionel Messi? F@ck no!
If I did 10000 of hours of tennis with top level coaching I'd still be sh*t at tennis. I'd like to think that despite this I might still have more charisma than Andy Murray mind. |
Posted By: iitick
Date Posted: 17 Oct 13 at 3:01am
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You need to be born with a certain talent in order to be arsed tp practice for 10,000 hours. |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 17 Oct 13 at 7:15am
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For talent read high tolerance of boring repetetive training sessions and (very often) parents prepared to spend time and money pushing their offspring (often to the limits of child abuse). Which should not detract from our admiration of those who succeed. The 10,000 hours theory refers to 10,000 hours of focussed work, not repeatedly strumming the same guitar chords or sailing the same course against the same boats..... I worked with one coach who had an interesting idea - people learn fastest when they begin an activity, the learning curve then flattens off and may become horizontal, or start going down. His idea was to try and identify when a sailor/crew reached the flattening out phase, and then offer them a new challenge that puts them back as beginners. This can be quite simple - having mastered a manoeuvre in force 3 then do it in a force 5. It can also mean changing fleet to sail against better opposition, doing the same excercise in a restricted space.... What we found is that everyone benefits but that each crew arrived at a level at which they seemed satisfied and did not want to move up to the next level. ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: johnreekie1980
Date Posted: 17 Oct 13 at 8:59am
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I am short at 5ft 6inches and around 70-75kg. There are not a lot of single handers for me out there but there are a lot of double handed dinghies with either a big guy or a small lady. There can't really be that many people out there who are both tall and incredibly heavy. If you are just massively overweight and there are no dinghies available for you then you could also lose weight as opposed to creating a complete dinghy class for 10 people in the world and then adding insult to injury by making it an olympic class.
There are not many people at under 7ft who need to be over 110kg in which case they can sail a finn.
|
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 17 Oct 13 at 9:17am
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It is true that the afore mentioned rugby players who dwarf Iain Percy are bulked up to the max. A less extreme form of training, concentrating on the fitness needed for sailing, would both see them lose muscle bulk, and so weight, and be far more healthy in the long term. John1980, I'm a similar build to you, and I've found many singlehnders to suit my weight over the years. Many haven't kept my interest for very long, mind, but if I had the money time, skill and the love of steep learning curves, then the International Moth fits me, too. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Phil_1193
Date Posted: 17 Oct 13 at 9:45am
Define 'truely huge' I'm a tad over 6ft 4 and weigh 120kgish, my Dad is 3 inches taller and a little lighter. We both sail Phantoms. Its perfectly capable of carrying that weight and size person with only 10m2 of sail area without being a that long or that wide. You dont need more sail area if you are not sailing with something thats as flat as a pancake If we ever want to sail together competitvely we have something for that, but its 32ft long and weighs in at 5t!! So in our case ALL double handed dinghys (not including small keel boats such as Squib or K6) are too small and there is no alternative, but are we 'truely huge' or just normal, surronded by a bunch of midgets? |
Posted By: hobbiteater
Date Posted: 17 Oct 13 at 10:03am
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well you weigh more than 95% of the population and are taller than 99% of the population http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=6ft+4in%2C+120kg%2C+bmi" rel="nofollow - http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=6ft+4in%2C+120kg%2C+bmi (yes sadly only uses us statistics boo hiss, i feel dirty)
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Posted By: Pierre
Date Posted: 17 Oct 13 at 10:27am
Osprey matey, Osprey..... |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 17 Oct 13 at 11:00am
I'd disagree with that, having met a fair few naturally talented types in my time, it didn't matter what the sport, 'they' could just do it, instantly, a couple stand out, one a guy who picked up skiing and windsurfing so quickly it was almost that he was born to it, the other the guy that got me into sailing dinghies, a natural skier, snowboarder, windsurfer and dinghy sailor, automatically assumed I'd just get in an MPS like he had and sail it, which I did but was limited the same way he felt he was (he's light and not much taller than I). Having said that he did quite well in a euopeans I gather. So rambling along, I do believe there are naturally talented people, but some of them don't push right through to win stuff, I believe winners have some psychological issues that drive them on and to the point they will be more than happy to do the 10,000 hours or push themselves to whatever is necessary to achieve their aim, but I also believe and this will set me up as a total nutter, but I believe in extra sensory perception, call it a gift of clear sight, call it psychic awareness, it's more usually manifested in women, blokes don't like to admit to it, it takes us into the realms of being a nutter, but it is very real and I believe in sports like sailing, it comes into play at times, not something easily switched on and off, not something everyone is even aware of, but I do believe some folk have it and others don't and if it happens to be part of being 'naturally talented' then no amount of training will put it in place, given it's a mental thing.. Mental ramble over. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 17 Oct 13 at 11:12am
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Before we all descend to johnreekie1980 depths of facile and well worn eerroneous arguments - we could reply that if he had eaten his porrige when a kid..... 1. Population averages present an out of date picture as they are based on measurements of present day adults. There is general agreement that amongst the teenagers of today there are many more tall people - the stats will only change in 25 years time. In the same way BMI stats do not seem to cope. even skinny tall people are classed as borderline obsese 2. Rupert - I deliberately quoted the height and weight of a rugby player who was identical in size to Ian Percy - if Sexton is bulked up to the max then so is Percy. My point is that at 1m87 Sexton would be one of the shortest players on the pitch. 3 With current weight limits many Star sailors diet to get down to weight. 4.Phil - I know exactly how you feel. Perversely even the keelboats that can carry weightare introducing weight limits (Dragon, Etchell, J24, SB20....) The simple fact is that for the larger young fit sailors, especially in inland dinghy sailing clubs, there is no obvious pathway for them to continue sailing, whilst they are being actively recruited by other sports (rowing, rugby, basketball...) As the average size of fit healthy kids increases sailing in Europe and North America will have a demographc problem. ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 17 Oct 13 at 11:22am
Suggest you point them at windsurfing then, it has favoured tall weightier guys& gals ever since the basic sail size went from 7.5 to 9.5 and the Olympic board went from 7.4 to 9.8. I guess the problem inland (as well as the water density making low volume boats perform in a more weight sensitive manner ) the general lack of windy and moderate wind races and gusty conditions favouring lighter folk, I still think lighter tall folk have an advantage which kids tend to be these days.------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iitick
Date Posted: 17 Oct 13 at 11:37am
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Oddly enough I agree with most of that young fella. Anyone who is willing to go to such ends in order to win must be a little peculiar. We do need these oddities however because they give us something to watch on TV. ESP? Does it exist? Apparently dogs can seem very clever, smelling out your stash etc, but most of it is because they can be super observant and spot details that we miss. Why do some people spot brilliant business opportunities and others are left scratching our heads? Is BA just a super sensor recording information and processing it or are the spirits feeding him that information. It is all much more subtle than I am. This big horse I am trying to ride requires constant information from me, gentle kick, soft pull and clench buttocks to stop. He is a clever boy who indulges me but when his young owner is on his back he does everything she requires with what seems like no communication... her buttock clenching is so subtle I cant see it. And I have looked. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 Oct 13 at 12:03pm
Steady on. Public forum... |