Disgusted from Kent
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Your ideas for this website
Forum Name: Your thoughts for YachtsandYachting.com
Forum Discription: What do you think we should be featuring on YachtsandYachting.com
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11123
Printed Date: 25 Jun 25 at 9:05pm Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Disgusted from Kent
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: Disgusted from Kent
Date Posted: 04 Oct 13 at 11:15am
http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11120&title=hadron" rel="nofollow - I've moaned enough here but, don't you think you're missing a trick with your testing?
This Hadron test, it's barely 500 words, hardly worth Toms effort if all he's going to be constrained to is one double spread and 500 words and certainly not worth me paying $6.50 for. Ignoring a bunch of old AC news and lead mine paraphanalia I really have no interest in.
So what is the history here, in all other equipment sports, testing is one of the principle reasons folk buy magazines, why so few dinghy tests and why not test them against each other for added spice, then why not once a year an annual with all the tests in it, then a mega test with every test you've ever written, useful to newcomers wanting to buy second hand. If ever a license to print money that would be it...
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Replies:
Posted By: Thunder Road
Date Posted: 04 Oct 13 at 12:23pm
I think you have a point, boat testing, comparison and fitting detail was a Y&Y strength. I well remember Pit Stop doing a series of photographs on a very elegant International 14 with lots of new ideas on it, it was mine and I was just so happy. I'm sure we can go back to that, if we ask politely, after all we might make useful suggestions but we know that compared to other countries we are very lucky to have Y&Y Nothing beats an evening in front of a log fire with a black labrador on your feet, sipping a brandy and babycham, thumbing through the latest issue 
------------- Finn GBR16 Thunder Road.
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Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 04 Oct 13 at 2:17pm
I concur Graeme old chap!
To me the magazine is gradually shrinking in terms of useful content while the page count stays the same. Basically more adverts or more full page adverts seem to be creeping in.
The result is that the useful articles are being condensed to the point where they dont actually say anything useful anymore.
I fully agree with your comments on the other thread, that the comparative boat reviews would be better, and have long promoted this but Y&Y seem not to want to go there. Really how hard would it be to go to Burghfield or some other large venue where a new manufacturer is testing his wares on a Sunday and grab a handful of sailors from other similar classes, and get them all to swap around and collate their views. Write that up and it would be of significantly more value than the current write ups.
Thunder Road you are also on the money. Boat park bimbles on all sorts of classes are becoming more and more secretive to outsiders. Why not do a monthly indepth report into a particular arrangement on a given class of boat. Everyone was banging on about the canting rig on a merlin a while ago but nothing got reported, there are all the various T-foil solutions on 14s and Cherubs that can be investigated, described and the relative merits discussed.
As I write this, its suddenly dawned on me. Not only are the dinghy manufacturers turning their backs on dinghy racing in favour of producing plastic tupperware boxes for beach holiday resorts, but now our magazines are dumbing down to accomodate the once a year tupperware sailors in finding the right woolly hat, rather than actually giving the established dinghy racing community the information it wants.
Sure there is a balance, and yes I am over-egging the point but I do think Y&Y needs to carefully re-balance its cuustomer focus or it'll start loosing subscribers.
Alternatively Mark will have to make this website, what the magazine is not!
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Posted By: mongrel
Date Posted: 04 Oct 13 at 2:18pm
The quality and content of the mag has hit an all time low and I won't be renewing my subscription.
Not long ago, we had Dinghy Sailing magazine which Y&Y took over, then Y&Y went from 2 weekly to monthly. Roll tacks used to be a double page every 2 weeks now its one page once a month.
Last months clubs & classes was only 4 pages, it included, Fireball Nationals, SB20 nationals, Optimist nationals, B14 worlds, Firefly nationals, Flying 15 nationals, National 18 nationals, Squib nationals, 420 nationals, J24 nationals, Contender Worlds, Enterprise nationals, OK Europeans, and on an area the size of a postage stamp was the D-one nationals. Yes all of that and a bit more was on 4 pages. There was no top 10 results, gear guide, etc.. like there used to be. In the old mag, bits like the Optimist/Fireball nationals would of had a double page.
Rubbish! 
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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 04 Oct 13 at 2:38pm
Originally posted by craiggo
Alternatively Mark will have to make this website, what the magazine is not! |
I think he already has, plus some! And whilst the forum might generate some conflicting opinions, in the main the advice is very sound.
Check out this thread today... we've all been very helpful, probably because the question was raised openly and honestly and responding appropriately is the right thing to do.... (we should all pat ourselves of the back  )
http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11121&title=rs600-buying-advice-needed" rel="nofollow - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11121&title=rs600-buying-advice-needed
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Posted By: NickM
Date Posted: 04 Oct 13 at 2:41pm
I agree with a lot of these sentiments too. More comparative dinghy tests would be excellent. But I guess we have to recognise it is not a specialist mag about dinghy sailing, as much as many of us would like it to be.
It's not all bad. I welcome the return of a review of sailing clubs and the "Sailor of the month" is a nice one. I would certainly like to see more, longer articles from Andy Rice on what is happening across the dinghy racing scene.
How about an article on the "top ten" dinghy stars looking focusing on those guys and gals who tend to prop up the front of the fleet in lots of different class' nationals champs?
Also more on rules and tactics, which would appeal to racing sailors of all types.
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Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 04 Oct 13 at 2:46pm
Edit:
------------- Needs to sail more...
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Oct 13 at 2:56pm
Time to relaunch Dinghy & Boardsailing methinks, none of the windsurfing press cater for inland or racing windsurfing these days, they're pretty much all wannabe wave & feestyle only which of course such a huge sector of their population can practise - not.
No need for it to be print, hell it would be easy for a man who once not only wrote the mag by typing it into a 1st gen electronic typesetter, but then made the plates and printed it on a Rotaprint than folded and bound it himself, where he got the time I'll never know...
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Oct 13 at 3:18pm
I'd really like to see an in depth write up of the C Class Little Cup. Not the racing so much - we can get that on this website and others, but a really good look at the boats, with interviews with the foil makers and especially the designer of Groupama's canting rig, which seemed very well sorted indeed.
Once that one is out of the way, then move on to another class with innovations, when it coincides with an event. The European lake boats are pretty fascinating, as are the 22sqmetres, so it isn't just dinghies that interest dinghy sailors, provided it is in depth. It is the background on events, people and classes that magazines can do better than the web. Plain news tends to be out of date and read by many already. Things that you can go back to over and again and study, but are moving forwards (so need to be done faster than a book can manage) would seem ideal for a monthly mag.
If it needs dumbing down for the less involved, then use side bars for the basic stuff, with pretty pictures to look at, but please, please have stuff in there that will educate even those with sailing and boats in their blood.
Some of the people related stuff has been pretty good from this point of view, and I can understand why you usually choose yotties - the tactician on a yacht doing big events, say, will have an interesting background generally, and also have a lot to say about how the big teams are run.
Of course, all this is harder to write, more expensive to put together, than re-hashing press releases on new yachts that aren't actually built yet or writing about yet another holiday resort, but it would make for one hell of a better magazine for real sailors.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: Thunder Road
Date Posted: 04 Oct 13 at 3:31pm
I'm going to sound really ancient, but in 1976 (I was only a lad) I remember Bob Fisher coming down to the Prince of Wales Cup in Falmouth just to report on the International 14s for Y&Y and may be the Times(what happened to their sailing reports?). This led to a 2/3 page spread, lots of pictures ,gossip, kit used and bimbles. I guess Y&Y do reader surveys and that tells them what is required, but I have wondered why they do such a great job at the Dinghy Show but have so little coverage and photos of the boats on display?
------------- Finn GBR16 Thunder Road.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Oct 13 at 3:47pm
Originally posted by iGRF
Time to relaunch Dinghy & Boardsailing methinks, none of the windsurfing press cater for inland or racing windsurfing these days, they're pretty much all wannabe wave & feestyle only which of course such a huge sector of their population can practise - not.
No need for it to be print, hell it would be easy for a man who once not only wrote the mag by typing it into a 1st gen electronic typesetter, but then made the plates and printed it on a Rotaprint than folded and bound it himself, where he got the time I'll never know... |
From my experience of trying to produce magazines of any sort, getting decent content over a long (years) period of time is hard, especially when you don't expect to be paying for it. Websites seem to have the same problem. People only stay keen for a little while unless there is a large pool of contributors.
Y&Y, of course, should be paying top sailing journos for beautifully crafted articles, with not only facts, but opinions - and not just ones that agree with the status quo. Advertisers should realize that a magazine that is widely read and commented on will get more viewings of their ads, even if the product they are selling is commented upon in less than glowing terms elsewhere in the mag. They should use any negatives to improve the offering.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Oct 13 at 3:47pm
Well a cynical man might think they're chasing the Ad revenue which is of course always going to be greater in leadmineworld. Even Mr Hadron man bless him, but he can't exactly be rolling in marketing spend, so I guess we should be pleased with the editorial integrity they have shown us, but given they really are the only act left in town, they took over the Dinghy mag and do have dinghy readers so they should do some dinghy stuff.
One also might think chicken and egg, if the mag aint preaching the sizzle, how are they going to sell enough sausages to advertise that they are frying tonight?
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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 04 Oct 13 at 3:59pm
Originally posted by iGRF
One also might think chicken and egg, if the mag aint preaching the sizzle, how are they going to sell enough sausages to advertise that they are frying tonight? |
what's the point... you can go on about new sausages all you like. You can tell us all about the new flavour combination sourced with provenance from Provence. You can film it cooking on location in Lake Garda in blistering 'champagne sausage' conditions. You can discuss the health merits of grilling over frying and how one is better for your back. I am sure we could find people who could talk at length and in minute detail about the difference between a synthetic and an all natural casing to put said sausage in. We may could even find a sausage mogul, some bloke who's really a vegetarian and certainly doesn't eat pork, syphoning off the profits of his sausage empire into poisonous baby foods and offshore hedge funds, offering nothing back to the sausage lovers club and is right royally f**king over the local butcher who started it- it'll make good reading and forum vitriol...
But when joe public walks into Royston Vesey Pools SC, nearly everyone would recommend he just buys an old banger like the rest of us. And then he can go class racing and f*ck his knees up too. And they'd be right to do it... class racing tastes better, and like a good Black Pudding, needs a supply of fresh blood and meat to keep it alive. It's authentic and there's nothing quite so quintessentially British as doing things the traditional way, the way Grandad used to when he were a lad.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Oct 13 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by yellowwelly
a good Black Pudding,
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Oxymoron.
Have you been to the little room with the big white telephone in it yet?
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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 04 Oct 13 at 4:13pm
you need to come up here... we've got a scotch egg at a local deli which has black pudding inclusions in it.
nom nom
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Oct 13 at 6:02pm
Got home to find the Nov Y&Y on the doormat. Sure enough, far more about an expensive holiday than about a new boat.
Iain Percy article pretty good, though he wasn't really admitting to much. One of the new boats won't exist for some time yet, and looked somewhat derivitive of Sailrocket, with some wild claims, and another seemed to be renders of a new yacht looking just like all the others.
RS cat will certainly need a comparitive test against its beach holiday rivals, and the foiling kit deseves a proper test, but one which tells the truth - what does happen up wind, or when you gybe?
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Oct 13 at 7:04pm
Originally posted by yellowwelly
you need to come up here... we've got a scotch egg at a local deli which has black pudding inclusions in it. nom nom |
Gros
You Northerners need help.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Oct 13 at 7:07pm
Originally posted by Rupert
From my experience of trying to produce magazines of any sort, getting decent content over a long (years) period of time is hard, especially when you don't expect to be paying for it. Websites seem to have the same problem. People only stay keen for a little while unless there is a large pool of contributors.Y&Y, of course, should be paying top sailing journos for beautifully crafted articles, with not only facts, but opinions - and not just ones that agree with the status quo. Advertisers should realize that a magazine that is widely read and commented on will get more viewings of their ads, even if the product they are selling is commented upon in less than glowing terms elsewhere in the mag. They should use any negatives to improve the offering. |
It's easy if you're enthusiastic and want to know about stuff and get involved with others of like mind, so producing it is the easy bit, the difficult bit is persuading advertisers to take space, then even more difficult, getting them to actually pay their bills.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Oct 13 at 8:44pm
I can see that - never had to do it myself, I'm glad to say.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 07 Oct 13 at 12:31pm
Originally posted by Timmus
What I cant quite understand is how Jeremy Clarkson gets away with "trashing" products that cost "gazzillions" of pounds......surely there is a middle ground where real honest reporting on genuine products can happen???Or is that impossible nowadays? |
I think it's probably a lot harder than we think. Dougaldog's got a very good post on the Hadron thread showing his experiences reviewing the RS100 against the Halo, in comparison to the D1 and Contender he'd been sailing at the same time.
It's always only ever an opinion piece and whilst we have such large parameters and criteria by which we could judge a boat, it's really impossible to get a gauge on what makes a good review.
Should a new boat be judged by initial price and/or the running costs to assess its real value- TCO to you IT bods? Having bought a few new boats over the years, that's how I judge the 'value' side of it. But how does a reviewer know what the depreciation is on a new boat if it's only just been launched? Are there patterns or trends he or she could refer to build a prediction?
Should a boat be judged just on its technical specification and 'sailing feel' alone, or should we look at the backing behind it to see if it's got the legs and marketing capital to make it a real class to offer class racing? Frankly the best boat in the world is pointless without someone to race against. Unless of course you plan to cruise it and you really, really do get off on handicap racing and the vagaries of it.
Should the editorial direction move the reviewer to put himself/herself in the shoes of the reader or the target market. They can often be different groups entirely. Or should we just get to know the reviewers own styles and preferences, so we can adapt what read to ourselves. I could read an article written about a car by anyone of those wallies on Top Gear, I wouldn't trust a cent of it to actually help me make an informed decision on what to buy!
Take a hypothetical 'new launch'... an entry level Finn, let's say from someone like Boon Boats who make for open class one designs like GP14s, Solos and Phantoms.
If the product was aimed at the higher end club market, priced on par with the Phantom; well built with a good competitive lifespan. Comes with a choice of skinny, standard or heavy matched off-the-shelf rigs from an OEM group (North/Southern). It's designed to renew interest in the class at club and local amateur level, rather than specifically aiming to become the next Olympic chariot; would it matter that it wouldn't be as competitive as the top of the range Devoti from Rodney? Well that question depends on the editorial direction given to the reviewer.
Next question, if such a boat were around and there was a growing fleet nearby, would you be interested in buying one?
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 07 Oct 13 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by yellowwelly
]I think it's probably a lot harder than we think. |
When I worked in the bike trade it was a source of enduring mystery to us at the shops I worked in how often the magazine reviewers used to rave about things we regarded as being horrible dogs, and were distinctly unenthused about bikes we thought were great...
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Posted By: Thunder Road
Date Posted: 07 Oct 13 at 12:55pm
I was thinking about this thread over the weekend and came to the conclusion that the change in Y&Y is due to the change in our sport rather than just change for it's own sake. I would guess that we over enthusiastic bimblers and racers are out numbered by the casual sailor, who will do the odd RYA course, go on sailing holidays and doesn't own or want to own a boat, but won't be at the club or in the workshop physically most of the time and mentally all the time. So, in order to reach viable numbers the management of Y&Y knows it must cater for all tastes, even if they don't want to do so? I think in those terms Y&Y is probably doing as well as it is able while reaching break even. We forumites are probably a very small proportion of the readership and yet our noise may suggest differently, I fear, it is not so.
------------- Finn GBR16 Thunder Road.
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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 07 Oct 13 at 1:42pm
I think the changes to the magazine are driven by commercial needs- ad revenues are down, you need to sell more space for the same return. This bloats the mag and forces an editorial direction towards advertorial.
I think the future for the printed mag in its current format is really rather limited. Who needs another lifestyle magazine? You get them free on Sundays. A monthly magazine full of re-hashed press releases, old event reports and advertorial just to meet current subscriber expectations isn't going to set the world on fire. I bet they're desperate for original content.
A dinghy bi-annual or maybe quarterly under the Y&Y master banner would awesome- a proper kit review, with proper tests across the boats and bits we use. A technical section for rigging and tuning. Rules update section. Highlights from the best championships and town regattas. INterviews with the rising stars, the builders and sail makers- and the amateurs leading the fleets (rather than just the RYA squad tis n' teeth brigade on their quest for minor celebrity.) Stagger that with another programme for racing yachts, also under the same master banner- plus special editions in Olympic years (more tits n' teeth) and you'd have a portfolio worthy of the Y&Y legacy.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 07 Oct 13 at 2:43pm
The problem as I see it, like a lot of businesses right now, they are probably just pedalling ever harder to stand still, they won't have excesses of staff or marketing cash to chuck around on things like tests, they're expensive, difficult to organise, potentially lethal for ad revenue (if you at all do the right thing for your readership)and after five years of recession not something any business minded type would risk.
Even the wind and kite surf game are restricted in the testing they offer these days, not least because of the expense of overseas travel.
So, what is the solution?
Well in a way if you remember what I was suggesting before we turned it into the forum open meeting, was kind of a mass demo/boat test event. What they (Y&Y) should do, is organise along the lines of the snowboard tests and the old Boards @ Bewl event, a day or weekend at the res of their choice (somewhere nice and somewhere folk can sling up a tent or camp in a pikey van.
Get all the purveyors of half decent boats along (ban GP14's. Solo's etc ) then let us go try them, with maybe a couple of races chucked in to simulate race conditions. Get everyone to fill out a review/questionaire, score them all on points for performance, handling etc and hey presto, the article is written around the event, photo opportunity, test carried out by target market, advertisers can't argue, publish multiple opinions about the boats and give information about the height, weight and experience of all those who actively take part.
How difficult could it be?
What could possibly go wrong?
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 07 Oct 13 at 3:01pm
Grafham is not 'somewhere nice'
Somewhere nice is like Roadford res down the west country.
Bewl even on a good day,
Derwent. (The res not the lakes)
Coniston
Rutland.
That bit of water they hold the Lord Birket on and hand out tablets to cure nosebleeds for us southerners.
It would need to be big water, I think it's the sort of thing that would have mass appeal if handled right.
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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 07 Oct 13 at 3:08pm
great.... get to travel to go sail on someone else's duck pond. m'eh.
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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 07 Oct 13 at 3:09pm
surely what Graeme's just described is essentially ramped up, commercialised Sail Fest?
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 07 Oct 13 at 3:55pm
Sail Fest? That's just another race, all you have is racing, nobody to my knowledge does demo days and they certainly don't do mass boat tests which is what I'm suggesting.
This is a mass boat test, they get the kit there, we rock up, test it, write it up, the mag collates it all and publishes an annual, we used to do it every year, late spring for the Snowboard test.
You 'invite' participation from all levels, shops, team riders, mag pundits, punters, they write a little bio so if you're reading it you pick the guy or girl most like you and read what they think, we learned this method from the dogmatic days of Boards Magazine having the same folk testing stuff and producing the same results which body and skill wise might not relate to you and your weight, skill level. It worked quite well.
The dinghy market is constrained because it is run by bloody dinghy sailors, who do things the way they are because they've always been done that way, they persuade the people they meet to do the same old same old and so the sorry mess that you exist within perpetuates. Something has to break that mould, so new stuff gets a look in, without all that tut tutting 'ooh can't sail that, there arn't enough other sheep sailing it in a class'. Attitudes need to change, Get some public opinion going, let these t**sers making this plastic crap know they can't get away with calling it the same as the real thing, let the market drive the builders for a change not the other way around like it's always been. Relieve the mag from the pressure 'they' apply and get some 'truths' in print, they can always get their own jockeys to spout the company line, but equally there will be someone elses view saying some of the things we all know get missed.
Only a crusading magazine can do all that.
A mag with balls.
Anyone know one?
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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 07 Oct 13 at 4:20pm
Originally posted by iGRF
Only a crusading magazine can do that.
A mag with balls.
Anyone know one? |
No, we don't need one. We're dinghy sailors, quite happy with our dreamy idylls and gentle reviews of versatile, family friendly boating products to 'unwind' and while away the hours in a quintessentially English harbour location. Naturally we may slum it once in a while on a Mark Warner holiday for some 'activities for the kids', but that's only when the Carruther's chalet in Verbier was already fully booked and we missed our ski trip, and to be frank, we've run out of time to find a decent Villa in Kefalonia.
These are the images of sailing advertisers. They are the customers of the magazine. The reader is the product upon which the magazine sells its wares- the circulation for want of the old school word.
Yes there are ramshackled old sailing clubs lining the less salubrious parts of the coast, barely keeping themselves out of the red as the numbers of hardened seafolk who they once called members find other things to do with their time and their kids go kitesurfing, or bully each other on Facebook.
There are also run down prefab buildings and overgrown boat parks on the edges of lakes and reservoirs- also known sailing clubs- locked behind wrought iron railings to try and prevent the local scallies from nicking bits off the boats to sell down the scrap yard. If you find a good one it will have showers, some even have hot water.
The real face of dinghy sailing just doesn't look right in a middle class world of Johnny Boden and Cath Kidston print.... so in turn, it doesn't deliver on expectations, especially when the 'endless summer' of leisure marine advertorial never bloody starts in the first place.
Read a Pinnell and Bax blog entry about a sh*tty day on Carsington, or flick through the Rooster catalogue to find out how to stop your knees going pop... that's real dinghy sailing, sadly it doesn't make such a good lifestyle magazine.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 07 Oct 13 at 4:32pm
Originally posted by yellowwelly
We're dinghy sailors,
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Exactly.
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