dial down
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11080
Printed Date: 27 Jun 25 at 8:54pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: dial down
Posted By: yellowwelly
Subject: dial down
Date Posted: 12 Sep 13 at 9:56pm
| okay, just watched the AC and saw the kiwi dial-down... what's the rules on that then? Can we do that in fleet racing? |
Replies:
Posted By: mongrel
Date Posted: 12 Sep 13 at 10:39pm
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Why would you want to lose all that height against every other boat in the race?
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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 12 Sep 13 at 10:45pm
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1) you have a match race at the front 2) you have a grudge match at the back 3) the boat on port is iGRF and it's worth it to see the look on his face ------------- |
Posted By: mongrel
Date Posted: 12 Sep 13 at 10:54pm
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1 Why risk a penalty/dsq when you're on for a 1st / 2nd.
2 You increase the gap between yourself and the boats in front. 3 Valid point! |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 12 Sep 13 at 11:24pm
Good reasons for and against discussed above.
The dial down when done in earnest is hair-raisingly dangerous in anything bigger or less robust than a Laser Pico. That's why it's called 'Steel Balls'.
What deters it in Fleet racing is rule 16.2 which prohibits hunting 'down' when the opposite tack boat has decided to go below you.
What initiially allows it in Match Racing is that rule 16.2 is deleted for Match Racing.
What then limits it in Match Racing is that MR Call D6 sort of reinstates rule 16.2 in a limited way (no proper course before the start, so full dial down perfectly legal and also legal if boats do not start on close hauled courses).
Lord knows what the Americas Cup circus special rules say about it.
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Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 13 Sep 13 at 12:09pm
They do indeed have something special to say. RRS AC 16.2 When sailing to a mark that is to windward, a starboard-tack yacht shall not bear away to a course that is below her proper course and more than 60 degrees from the true wind direction if at that moment the port-tack yacht that is keeping clear by sailing a course to pass astern of her has to immediately change course to continue keeping clear. |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 13 Sep 13 at 1:23pm
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last night's race- race number 6 iirc.... [tube]MKL7LiUTvB8[/tube] 22 minutes onwards, watch the upwind leg.... 27 min for the dial down
------------- |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 16 Sep 13 at 9:21am
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You might like to read a recent Team Racing Rapid response call - which deals with the situation without "in effect" creating a new rule, which the MR call does: http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/RapidResponseTeamRacingCall2013.003-%5B15202%5D.pdf The essence of this call is : - a boat is sailing to pass astern when she is altering course to pass astern even if her heading does not yet pass astern - a ROW boat can change course in a dial down as long as she gives the keep clear boat room to keep clear. The manoeuvre is frequent in classes such as the 6m, the 5.5m and such like which typically sail in small fleets so one on one manoeuvres play an important part in racing tactics. ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 16 Sep 13 at 9:28am
| Thanks Gordon and Brass... the other area of application I thought of was in a handicap race, dialling down a boat that is faster on the spreadsheet. |
Posted By: catmandoo
Date Posted: 16 Sep 13 at 1:13pm
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its not allowed in handicap racing !!!
unless your match racing on handicap  ------------- |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 16 Sep 13 at 1:37pm
While all the rest of the fleet go thundering past? Engaging just one other boat in a handicap race is very rarely a good idea.
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 16 Sep 13 at 1:41pm
The rules don't actually forbid the dial-down, and the TR RR Call Gordon cited points out that once boats are beam-reacing towards one another, even rule 16.2 (which is NOT switched off for Team Racing), won't apply. The rules just make boats initiate the dial-down a bit further apart, and in the case of MR damp down how far and how fast the initiating boat can go.
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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 16 Sep 13 at 2:11pm
I can think of situations where it could be a good idea, especially if you are bringing series points into the equation- forcing your opposition down the pan even further, whilst maintaining your 'good result' on corrected time might be a play worth considering. But thanks for the clarity- much appreciated.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 Sep 13 at 2:36pm
Now suppose that Stbd has "dialed down" at some distance, and then ports luffs up so that they are now going to clear starboards bow. I suspect 16.2 comes into play again and there could be circumstances where S ends up having sailed themselves into ducking port...
There's never been any great shortage of amateur lawyers when it comes to RRS... |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 16 Sep 13 at 2:38pm
certainly a feasible scenario... especially on a shifty puddle.
 |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 16 Sep 13 at 3:05pm
Once P is no longer 'keeping clear by sailing to pass astern of S', 16.2 goes OFF and its pure 16.1
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 16 Sep 13 at 3:07pm
Love it. But remember, rule 16.2 is only really going to apply when S is deliberately hunting down. S is going to know what they are doing.
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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 16 Sep 13 at 3:07pm
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Jim C - could you explain how port tack luffing to clear starboard's bow could possibly be interpreted as keeping clear by sailing to pass astern! 16.2 cannot apply if port tack boat is crossing a starboard boat's bow. However in this situation starboard would have to remeber to give port room to keep clear if she (starboard) changes course. I always suggest that on a two (or more) handed boat that one person should always be saying whether boat is ROW or keep clear... ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 Sep 13 at 3:27pm
| Yeah, fair comment, didn't read the rule carefully enough. Just 16.1 applies. |
Posted By: ohFFsake
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 7:51pm
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Picking up the OP's point, I'd say that one situation where a dial down can be hugely beneficial, even when sailing in a fleet, is when P is about level with S and likely to make a lee bow tack stick.
If S bears off a bit whilst still a few boat lengths away she speeds up and forces P to tack sooner than they would otherwise have done. As soon as P commits to the tack S resumes their close hauled course and immediately gets separation as well as gaining speed, so instead of being lee-bowed she will now have every chance of rolling the other boat. |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 17 Sep 13 at 8:11pm
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Or when a bit high on the starboard layline with a boat coming in on port. Bearing away to a collision course may persuade them not to tack in the zone, but cross ahead. ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 12:35am
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We seem to have some difference in understanding about the slang term 'dial down'.
A gentle bear away by a starboard tacker to gain an advantage isn't really a 'dial down'
Call that a dial down?
THIS is a dial down (45 to 55 seconds in)
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CEkQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dy818LwYeq8I&ei=kuA4UvWLHeeCiQfWgYGYCg&usg=AFQjCNEO6ABxhcfA5tCbEw-MNgYlz6zqNw&sig2=dX2ScXMyk8h3j7x2aRIS1w&bvm=bv.52164340,d.aGc" rel="nofollow - http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CEkQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dy818LwYeq8I&ei=kuA4UvWLHeeCiQfWgYGYCg&usg=AFQjCNEO6ABxhcfA5tCbEw-MNgYlz6zqNw&sig2=dX2ScXMyk8h3j7x2aRIS1w&bvm=bv.52164340,d.aGc
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Posted By: ohFFsake
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 12:54am
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(cough)
I know a dial down when I see one... ..and I'm looking at one right now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpqEONUKIz0 
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 1:26am
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Great example.
It's after the start so Call D6 is ON.
Note the following
@13 Y begins bearing away, aiming for B, and B begins bearing away to keep clear of Y.
@17 Y holds steady course, carefully above 90 degrees from true wind, B still bearing away.
@18 B stops bearing away and holds steady course, doing nothing to keep clear of Y.
@20 B again begins bearing away
@21 Y luffs hard in an attempt to avoid contact with B
@21.5 B luffs back towards Y
@23 contact.
Penalty Blue
What WAS B thinking?
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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 8:33am
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Not sure that I read that the same way as Brass. As B, on port bears away to pass astern of Y, Y bears away on to a collision course with B. At that point I can see nothing that B can do to avoid a collision except continue in a straight line and hope. As B passes ahead of Y she luffs towards a course at 180° to Yellow. A collision is still inevitable but it would have been gunwale to gunwale. At this point Y luffs hard and drives her port quarter in to B! For me Y broke rule 16.1 and rule 14. Penalty Yellow and they pay for damages. However that is from watching the video. The umpires obviously saw something else, or were influenced by the shouting.... And, being pedantic, the manoeuvre Ainslie carried out was not a "dial down" but "hunting" ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 9:27am
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In fleet racing, I had always thought that as starboard boat you weren't allowed to alter course in either direction once a port tack boat was in the process of avoiding you? Am I just plain wrong on that?
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 9:43am
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What the rule says is that when a ROW boat changes course she must give a keep clear boat room to keep clear In addition rule 16.2 gives a further obligation to the starboard ROW boat when the keep clear port tack boat is sailing to pass astern. Starboard boat shall not change course if as a result the port tack boat would IMMEDIATELY need to change course to continue keeping clear. So starboard boat can change course but within limits! ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 9:57am
Really hard with telephoto foreshortening, but I suspect that B luffed so that their stern would clear Y's bow, and wasn't expecting Y to turn so far. |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 9:59am
That's what I was brought up to understand too, in fact, 'hold your course' is popular, if seemingly pointless call from a port tacker in a club race. Hence why a big thank you is needed to those who've answered my OP and clarified it....
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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 10:04am
 that needs proper embedding for the 'right click' cut n paste phobes out there.... [TUBE]hpqEONUKIz0[/TUBE] |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 10:12am
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Brass - I am not convinced that Call D5 is relevant. In this incident when Yellow bears away I am not convinced that she gave Blue room to keep clear. If Blue had luffed sho would have been T-boned. In fact, looking at this again, I think Ainslie was lucky not to be penalised for deliberately breaking a rule. ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 10:23am
| So Guys, was Ainslie's expectation for Richard to tack, (then he'd head up with decent separation) or is his frustration that Richard didn't duck further & quicker? |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 10:56am
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To me, the idea that you can just bear away and aim at someone, and then blame them when there simply isn't anywhere for them to go, and all they can do is avoid being T boned, is sailing at its worst, and a good reason why match racing will always be a very minor part of our sport, ignored by most except when billionaires get together to play.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: ohFFsake
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 11:27am
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To be fair, there is clearly a huge telescopic foreshortening effect in this clip. At the point where Ainslie bears away he looks to be very close to the other boat but they continue to sail towards each other for several seconds, so in reality the initiating move must have been from several boats lengths away.
In which case the port boat presumably had sufficient opportunity to tack or hubs away and was penalised for choosing not to do so. It does seem like the eleventh hour head up by S worsened the impact but again it may be that if you were right there with them then this was necessary to avoid t-boning the port boar |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 4:20pm
I think the foreshortening is the problem: we are nowhere near looking into the gap. (Neither were the umpires: the umpire boat comes into shot way outside B @18). I wasn't really exercising my own judgement about the decision: I was just reconstructing and reflecting the umpire decision. I thought the point between @18 and @20 when B stopped bearing away and held a steady course, doing nothing to keep clear of Y was a time when she was not 'doing all she could' Given the position of the umpire boat I'm not sure they were well-sighted. Going by the fact that we can see clear water between the boats @21, the instant before the stern of Y swings into B, maybe the umpires thought that Y was, at that time, giving B room to keep clear, and actually penalised B for the course change back towards Y @21.5.
I thought I edited the reference to D5 to D6 before anybody noticed. D6 was on: both boats started out close hauled: Y needed not to go below 90 (downwind course) and did so. |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 6:08pm
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Ainslie holds course for 4 seconds - about a boat length judging by the conditions.When Y finishes bearing away I am not convinced that there was anywhere for B to go. Y was aiming at her bow. If B luffed she risked being T-boned, if she bore away, she risked a collision at a point where crew member's were standing. If at 0.18 Ainslie had luffed there would have been no collision. Instead his crew (Percy) starts screaming to attract the umpire's attention. As B first bore away she was doing enough to keep clear of Y on her course at that time. She only returned to a collision course because Y bore away towards her. Y therefore had a rule 16 obligation to give B room to keep clear. When it became clear that Y was no going to give B room to keep clear there was nothing seamanlike that B could do. Frankly, if I had been the umpire I would have not felt happy going in to the de-brief that evening. As for MR Call D5 many umpires are uncomfortable with this - as it creates out of nothing a rule changing interpretation. The way this call applies it means that the ROW boat breaks rule 16.1 merely by sailing below a course perpendicular to the wind, whether she gives the other boat room or not. This was originally introduced to prevent a manouevre on the 12M's - because the MR umpires didn't or couldn't get a rule change through. However call D6 does not mean that because Y didn't go to a downwind course she did not break rule 16.1 - she still has to give B room to keep clear. What D6 does say is that IF she had gone below 90° to the wind she would have automatically broken rule 16.1 even if B had room to keep clear. Gordon PS Am I the only contributor to this dicussion to have given a penalty to the Ainslie/Percy team? - as a result they lost the race! ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 24 Sep 13 at 11:15pm
| Ok - so in AC race 18 the lee bow tack that failed will become famous. Commentators also discussed the option to cross and go left early, but surely there was a third way on offer - the dial down? |