Boats hardly anyone talks about Pt 1 - Hornet
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Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11023
Printed Date: 16 Jul 25 at 7:46am
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Topic: Boats hardly anyone talks about Pt 1 - Hornet
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: Boats hardly anyone talks about Pt 1 - Hornet
Date Posted: 07 Aug 13 at 10:48am
So, shortly we are going to face the arrival of a Hornet at our club, on the face of it, it looks almost modern, got a wash through hull, some scaffolding up the front, claims speed wise to be 470 or thereabouts, which is the boat it will replace. The Guy about to campaign it as well as being deaf, blind and as old school as it comes , can be a bloody nuisance if the wrong crew happens to be aboard.
So, what more is known about these anachronisms? Am I going to have problems with it in the Alto? More important, what is its Bandit rating? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Replies:
Posted By: hollandsd
Date Posted: 07 Aug 13 at 12:38pm
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Handicap of 973 for a hornet, in reality a little slower than the also over the water. Dan ------------- Laser 184084 Tasar 3501 RS600 698 RS600 782 |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 07 Aug 13 at 1:39pm
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Has it got a sliding seat or trap? Has it got the gybing C/B? I looked at this boat several years ago as a possible alternative to what we were sailing at the time, I was tempted. We gave it a miss on grounds of weight + too much time would be spent tinkering.....A well sorted boat should do well at Hythe I would have thought, hey, but who knows. |
Posted By: i tick
Date Posted: 07 Aug 13 at 1:54pm
| I crewed one for a day with a trap. It seemed fast to me. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 07 Aug 13 at 2:49pm
Ooh curious and curiouser, I saw a picture I shall off and grab it, don't know the answer to that, sliding seat? What like those canoe weird boats? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 07 Aug 13 at 2:54pm
That's it.. You can't help but like it, looks very business like, shame it's not an assym. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 07 Aug 13 at 5:30pm
Oh dear When I was young, well younger, I crewed a Hornet in Poole Harbour in big winds and the sliding seat broke. I surfaced to find the boat capsized, and the seat hanging off  My helm was somewhat p****d with me for breaking his precious seat but, sadly for him, I was in fits of laughter as I was standing in 3ft of water. We got home safely and I paid half the costs of repairing the seat (I think  ). Anyway it was a good blast until the seat gave up on my 80 Kgs
------------- Rodney Cobb Suntouched Sailboats Limited http://www.suntouched.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.suntouched.co.uk [EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 07 Aug 13 at 6:05pm
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Must of been a long time ago rodney and not because they haven't ad sliding seats for like 30 years but because you were 80kg ------------- |
Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 07 Aug 13 at 6:12pm
Cheeky sod! Currently less than 90 Kgs, don't know how much, will confirm tomorrow  ------------- Rodney Cobb Suntouched Sailboats Limited http://www.suntouched.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.suntouched.co.uk [EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk |
Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 07 Aug 13 at 6:28pm
Me then you cheeky git   ------------- Rodney Cobb Suntouched Sailboats Limited http://www.suntouched.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.suntouched.co.uk [EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk |
Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 07 Aug 13 at 6:39pm
Er! Maybe more than 30 years? Take a guess ------------- Rodney Cobb Suntouched Sailboats Limited http://www.suntouched.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.suntouched.co.uk [EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 07 Aug 13 at 7:05pm
| iGRF, the picture you showed was of the new Hornet design that they commissioned back in 2005ish, to try and re invigorate the fleet. I expect it goes rather well. We used to have a well sailed Hornet at our club and they were tough to beat. In reality they are fractionally quicker than a Fireball. It's a shame the new design really didnt get going as they are great boats. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 07 Aug 13 at 7:05pm
1954? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 07 Aug 13 at 7:09pm
Yes I was afraid of that, so it's going to be another Bandit then, that's the problem once you get one Bandit established and constantly winning, the only way to combat is to introduce another... ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 07 Aug 13 at 7:09pm
How did you guess? I have a vague feeling that i spotted an old man looking on enviously, was that you? ------------- Rodney Cobb Suntouched Sailboats Limited http://www.suntouched.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.suntouched.co.uk [EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk |
Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 08 Aug 13 at 9:08am
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Gruf....there used to be one of the UK's top fleets of Hornets just along the coast from you at Downs SC, so you can be sure that they go well in those tricky conditions that you enjoy telling us about.They certainly go well in breeze and waves and a well sorted boat (as the one in the picture) can be a very useful boat indeed. Is it a PY Bandit? No - not any more than any other boat that is well prepared, plus of course the ever present caveat that it is well sailed! But be warned - if the helm and crew are good - and it blows/big waves - then you'll struggle to live with them!
D ------------- Dougal H |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 08 Aug 13 at 11:01am
I'm aware of your prejudice re the kite. The first thing you personally wanted on an assy kite was a wing wang pole so you could "soak low". Most smaller assy classes emphasise as a first learning priority the need to "soak low"........when will the penny drop? You're all closet symmy sailors
If this team have the symmy skills I reckon you've got your work cut out if you want to beat them on a regular basis. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Aug 13 at 11:17am
Or if they have any skills at all? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 08 Aug 13 at 11:17am
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I see the further development of asymmetric sailing as the future, if Assyms can be made to effectively sail low, they win, since syms struggle to compete when angles heat up.
That and all those poles and bags and fugly half kites When I fit my new 'L' pole on my 'Psycon' the future will be clear to see.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Aug 13 at 11:18am
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Can you tell your ass from your 'L' Pole, that is the question?
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 08 Aug 13 at 11:48am
Since when?? ------------- Needs to sail more... |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 08 Aug 13 at 11:56am
Bit general that. Some do but some don't. Many symmys can do the angles to get planing as well as run straight to the mark (depending on conditions). This gives a greater choice of tactical options. The idea that the assy makes downwind sailing more tactical is a myth, how can removing a useful option be more tactical? ......Modern twin pole systems make gybing simple. Faster, larger assys may have an advantage in certain conditions but to be honest those conditions have been few and far between on sundays this year (south coast). As for the slower assys: The number of times this year we've been sitting in our 200 (others in 2ks) thinking "bloody hell, we need to soak low again"
 .I'll not speak for the faster boats/cats because that't not were my experience lies but on smaller, slower boats the assy is the wrong tool for the job. IMO. .....as for perfecting the "all round assy", if it can be made to work it'll be so damn complicated nobody will want to use it (see the RS200 srs, apparently it worked running). Edit.......from a club race perspective. |
Posted By: i tick
Date Posted: 08 Aug 13 at 12:03pm
| I dont know about all this sailing angles with symetric kites. Have you ever seen a well sailed Fireball? |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Aug 13 at 12:32pm
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There is an argument to be had that by LIMITING the downwind tactical options (as Assys have) you produce tighter racing with more chances for the truly skilled to excel. Provided you aren't handicap racing against boats who still have the full range of options. Then you just become a one trick pony.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 08 Aug 13 at 12:48pm
Indeed. It changes the game. You have to decide, port tack or starboard. No middle option. Personally I like it, but I accept its 'different' not always 'better'.
|
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 08 Aug 13 at 1:03pm
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Anyone racing an assymetric that's not had races where they've made big gains by gybing and gybing and gybing and gybing down the middle really hasn't been doing it properly. ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 08 Aug 13 at 1:23pm
Indeed. Or gybing repeatedly across the band of more wind on one side of the course. Or area of best tide. But at any one time, you have to be on one gybe or the other. While in say a Merlin, you might run much deeper to stay in best wind and tide.
|
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 08 Aug 13 at 1:32pm
I'm sorry chaps, you'll have to run that argument past me again. I'm not being obtuse but I just don't understand it. The further you reduce options the less tactical skill you'll require to win, based on logic and the definition of tactics this seems like a fact to me...If options are further reduced to 1 (No choice say), tactics are eliminated altogether and it then becomes a contest of boat speed skills. Since boat speed skills are not effected by the number of tactical options available how can the "truly skilled" be advantaged with fewer options? |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Aug 13 at 2:07pm
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But they haven't been reduced to 1. You now have to make the choices in order to best overcome the inability of the boat to go straight away from the wind or somewhere near it. If the fastest point of sailing is, say, the blat the mainsail out to past the mast, heel it to windward and to straight to the mark, there are far fewer options for making large gains than in a boat where you can't do that. However, if racing against a boat which can, chances are that you will be beaten by them. Personally, it drives me insane that I can't make a boat go in the fastest direction simply because of an artificial limitation. My boats of choice are those which will go DDW when wanted. But I can see that, as 400 says, it is a different option, equally valid, with different skills and tactics needed. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 Aug 13 at 2:18pm
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All this is based on a false premise though. No boat goes fast running. And I know of no class anywhere in the world that permits both pole kites and sprit kites where anyone uses pole kites.
What we found in Cherubs many years ago, when we actually sailed equal boats on equal terms, was that a good crew with a sprit kite nearly always beats a good crew with a pole kite, but a mediocre crew with a pole kite may beat a mediocre crew with a sprit kite. Presumably because its much harder to sail fast to the wrong side of the course. We also found that the pole kite boats lost a place or more on every gybe mark... I thought the pole kite would have advantages in many conditions, using much the same logic as people here, but I was utterly wrong, which is why there is a 25 year old but one season used symettric Cherub kite in the cupboard behind me. If you like sailing with a pole kite that's fine, carry on, but you're kidding yourselves if you think they are faster given a good crew. |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 08 Aug 13 at 2:31pm
Yes I understand that. I gave that as an extreme example of reduced options=reduced required tactical skill which to me seems an inescapable fact. As I implied earlier: All of my arguments become unimportant in class racing, I was arguing purely from a handicap race perspective as in GRFs current situation. |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 08 Aug 13 at 2:42pm
I wouldn't like to comment on faster assys like the Cherub but I'm up for learning Were the kites fitted with self launching twin poles? Was there no situation whereby running was quicker?
Were the symmy kites cut for reaching? All genuine questions from ignorance. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Aug 13 at 2:47pm
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There are plenty of yachts which have both, Jim. And some of the big smods are more like yachts in the way they sail than they are Cherubs. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 Aug 13 at 3:07pm
But they also have a choice of about 17 downwind sails, and probably silly short sprits too, so I don't know how useful the comparison is. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Aug 13 at 3:15pm
And my (possibly spurious) argument ONLY holds true in class racing... ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Aug 13 at 3:18pm
|
So Jim, bringing it back to the Hornet, do you think it would be quicker round the course with an asymmetric spinnaker? And if so, how much bigger would the spinnaker need to be than the standard one for that to be the case? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 08 Aug 13 at 5:42pm
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This thread needs the picture from the Dutch or polish guys who made their hornet into a twin trapeze and assymetric (IIRC) ------------- |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 09 Aug 13 at 9:08am
| perhaps the answer is that if your particular class can be optimised one way or the other... I would guess for example that a MR would be potentially quicker with an assy, but a FB would not be? |
Posted By: rogerd
Date Posted: 09 Aug 13 at 9:32am
| My experience is that the Hornet is a difficult boat to sail to its handicap. The good guys do very well of course but even Mike Mac (former Hornet champion) only came 9th in last years 60th anniversary Euro`s with a very tight last race between the top two boats. Me? well my boat wasnt quite state of the art but we were not last and when I did have a more up to date boat we found it a challenging boat to sail. A good many boats have gone to Poland now but you can still get a very good competetive boat for very little. The boat that came 3rd I believe was bought for less than £1000 . Value for money they are a very good second hand buy and the build quality has meant that 30 year old boats are still very competetive. |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 09 Aug 13 at 2:04pm
| What about the Gybing C/B? Are they that effective?......it would seem they are not everyone's choice. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 09 Aug 13 at 2:46pm
That could be an entire separate thread, my experience of them they work but require crew weight to work in stronger wind, (this in a sailboard) they had a following in the late seventies early eighties in 505's, I would guess went out of fashion with the onset of dagger boarded skiffs (they need to retract in order to lock them when it's windy). A good lazy method for helms who aint exactly 'on it' with the seat of their pants in hunting lifts would be my opinion. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: John Shelton
Date Posted: 09 Aug 13 at 3:03pm
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Gybing boards are/were popular in Hornets as Malcolm Goodwin, years ago, bent the rules to have a diamond-shaped case, and a resulting humungous gybe. This loophole was closed, but the Hornet ended up with a 40mm case, which is plenty for a good gybing board. The problem is that too many people fail to implement it properly. To really work, it has to have a tight fit, to stop it wobbling athwartships, while gybing easily.
A properly fitting standard CB is better than a wobbly gyber, but when the latter is done properly, it allows the Hornet in particular to be planed easily upwind, without losing too much leeway. Other classes may not show the same benefit. The Hornet is a cracking boat, sadly overlooked, but in an area where there is competition from Furballs, and Flyspreys, both of whom have great builder and marketing (P&B, Hartley), it's difficult to get the momentum going. If anyone wants to build/market Hornets, they would be pushing at an open door, and the moulds are freely available. The Hornet is a great sea boat (come to Shoreham anyone?) and IMHO more challenging to sail than the alternatives - the hard chine narrow hull is very unforgiving if you let it heel - and it can certainly get quite unstable. For this reason, considering an asymmetric kite is lunacy, and best left to the skiffs. By the way, Hornets haven't had sliding seats since 1972 but you wouldn't believe it reading this thread ;) |
Posted By: i tick
Date Posted: 09 Aug 13 at 3:38pm
| The one I crewed a few years ago was ply, had a trap and I nice flat deck mid ships. It was great to just crawl about on. None of that clambering up onto the gunwale when you went out. (like in the Javelin I was crewing at the time). That should be no 2 in this thread. |
Posted By: mole
Date Posted: 10 Aug 13 at 11:51am
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Hi All the last time I crewed a Hornet with a sliding seat was at the Plymouth Nationals in 1978 aboard the veritable 'Mojo'. We didn't do very well overall, but I remember a windy day where we capsized just after the start, took ages to get her up, to be joined by the leaders on their 2nd beat, which we duly overtook. You should have seen their faces! 80kg well hiked out on the end of the plank with your feet 2ft from the gunwales just gives you that much more leverage/speed. mole
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Posted By: rogerd
Date Posted: 10 Aug 13 at 6:15pm
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 10 Aug 13 at 9:50pm
It removes the option of having tedious processions or luffing/blanketing matches when the 'run' is biased one way. You have to do several gybes so you have to think about where to do them, and where others are doing them. Also being a 'binary' choice, you can think the possibilities more steps ahead than when the other guys have got a continuous range of options. The wider range of angles on a sym kite, give more possibilities, but very often sailing a fairly straight line to the next mark (or gybing on the shifts) is the right answer and you cannot do anything about it. Maybe if the 'runs' are actually precisely dead runs, that's never the case, but our club races are rarely like that. It's a bit like the difference between tactics in a proper beat vs a fetch. Not intending to do down sym kites, just saying it's a different facet of sailing. |
Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 12 Aug 13 at 4:49pm
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I sailed them a lot in my youth and always wanted to try one with twin poles and chute at my current (smallish) lake as I reckon they might give the Furballs a run for their money just due to the speed of gybing on restricted water. We frequently have several hoists/drops/gybes per lap and the Furball seems to require a huge amount of dicking about before you get any drive from it in comparison. ------------- Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36 |
Posted By: L123456
Date Posted: 12 Aug 13 at 6:07pm
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That is more to do with crew skill than kit. When Simon Hiscocks crewed a 505 he ditched the twin poles in favour of a simple double ended single pole.
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Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 12 Aug 13 at 9:00pm
Agreed, I have had the pleasure of sailing with a couple of really good crews in the past, and witnessing others in FB's and MR's;a good crew, with plenty of practice, can still make a single pole work, with or without bags ... plus it's less weight and complication and drag (all that string flapping about in the slot and off the boom etc...) |
Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 12 Aug 13 at 10:29pm
Agreed on all counts, bear in mind though that I changed from a GP to an RS400 to avoid all those fiddly hoists and drops and to concentrate on tactics which I consider a much better use of my time. ------------- Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36 |
Posted By: Mike Holt
Date Posted: 13 Aug 13 at 4:03am
| There is absolutely no question that twin poles in a 505 are significantly faster than a single pole and in a good crews hands as quick as an asymmetric kite. Much less "skill" required too. |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 13 Aug 13 at 7:55am
Not sure when this was., however it must of been a poorly setup system. Before everyone harps on about Simon being an ex olympian. There are more than their fair share in the 5o5 class!!! Mike Holt is absolutely right the twin pole setup on a 505 is quicker in all instances when it comes to gybing. I doubt it would be possible to win a 5o5 worlds without it now. ------------- |
Posted By: L123456
Date Posted: 13 Aug 13 at 9:52am
So why did a double Olympic medallist choose the single pole option then?
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Posted By: John Shelton
Date Posted: 13 Aug 13 at 11:01am
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Having sailed Mike's old 505 with Pete Bennett at the weekend, I can confirm that gybing with twin poles is a cinch, but it's not a panacea for all classes. I think the 505 benefits more since they went for the big kite, and the gybe to gybe angle is a lot less than most other symmetric boats.
The downside is the amount of string and complication (and expense for us mere mortals). In a Hornet (see what I did there?), with the 2.5 metre pole, and smaller foretriangle, I reckon end for end single pole is a better option, and with practice is faster. It also means gybing with the pole on the mast, which aids stability with such a narrow boat. YMMV with other classes though |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 13 Aug 13 at 11:07am
------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: SymBoy
Date Posted: 13 Aug 13 at 12:05pm
Agreed, the 505 is a much more stable platform compared to the hard-chined Hornet so you can get away with a lot more. Looking at some of the gybes executed in this 505 video, there is very little control coming out of the gybe - in a Hornet that would probably equate to a swim! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClrGBB59sdI" rel="nofollow - |
Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 13 Aug 13 at 12:43pm
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The original reason for twin poles in the Hornet was that they used to have a very high crew deck (a hangover from the sliding seat) and when the crew stood to gybe the pole their weight was so high a swim was common. ------------- Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36 |
Posted By: i tick
Date Posted: 13 Aug 13 at 12:52pm
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Personally I found a self launching pole easiest. With the shifty winds on our lake I found myself standing up fighting to clip the pole on as the kite flogged its self. The self launcher just involves pulling a string while sitting down. The disadvantage is the damage done to the helms head when retracting. When I restored a Merlin I fitted twin poles (made out of an old gazebo), they were good but needed clipping on. The 'boy' sailed it once with his sister and she seemed to manage very well.
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Posted By: Mike Holt
Date Posted: 13 Aug 13 at 3:04pm
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What double poles do is saving you ever having to connect the "guy" to the pole it is all captive. One pole off, new pole on, sheet go. Very simple. The elastic only fails if you run it in to the pole, don't do that, attach externally with a vectran loop. That way the system is completely bullet proof. In the video link above I am the first boat to gybe, back then we has single poles.... All the other boats had double.
|
Posted By: John Shelton
Date Posted: 13 Aug 13 at 3:07pm
Possibly, although I never really saw twin poles on a Hornet until after the demise of the plank. The last five championships (at least) have been won by boats with single end for end poles - with and without crewdecks. Good technique will triumph over high CofG
If you go down the twin pole route, you just have to make sure it's well implemented - there are some good examples in the Hornet fleet who are starting to win races/opens, but those guys are quite good yotters anyway. Let's see what happens next week at the Nationals. I would say that the systems developed for the Merlins are very impressive, but they do have quite short poles |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 13 Aug 13 at 3:21pm
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There's a Nationals? Will they both be there.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: John Shelton
Date Posted: 13 Aug 13 at 3:35pm
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There should be a couple, but rumour has it one won't measure
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Posted By: SymBoy
Date Posted: 13 Aug 13 at 4:46pm
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Might even be two Poles there... http://www.hornet-yacht.prv.pl/" rel="nofollow - http://www.hornet-yacht.prv.pl/
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Posted By: mole
Date Posted: 13 Aug 13 at 7:34pm
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None of the Poles are twins. I saw them at the 60th anniversary championships last year. I think 2 might have been brothers. @iGRF - yes there are championships, how many in your class? |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 13 Aug 13 at 7:55pm
No idea, don't do classes, they are the work of satan. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 13 Aug 13 at 8:03pm
------------- |
Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 13 Aug 13 at 8:23pm
Genius  .------------- Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 15 Aug 13 at 10:41pm
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Watched it on the water tonight on rescue boat duty, it murdered our RS400 & 500 and had the wind held up it could have tickled the Contenders had it used the tidal lee bow instead of crawling up the coast.
They were taking their time deploying the kite, but once up it works OK, I still think they look old fashioned pants. But the boys were enjoying themselves so what the heck. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Sunseeker
Date Posted: 16 Aug 13 at 12:30am
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How did it get on against your resident Merlin boys and what were the conditions? |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 16 Aug 13 at 8:25am
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The Bandits weren't there, it started off barely 5 falling to 4 then 3 by the end of the evening, short chop and we're coming off springs so the tide still had a fair lick to it. The Contenders were both wiring initially but the heavier guy had to come off the wire by the last lap.
Other than the 500 and 400 there was nothing much else out there to touch it, it does have a gybing plate that I tried explain would still have benefited by a tidal lee bow, they either didn't get it or were steeped in dinghy folklore about sailing the boat fast and flat to make the plate work, I still didn't get why that made them think sailing along the coast was the better option but either way it's what cost them the race. Nobody really pays much attention to anything I say at our club anyway and as I was leaving he said he was looking forward to us getting on the water in the Alto for a bit of competition I warned him not to get his hopes up, all I could see was bitter disappointment on his horizon. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: boatbasher
Date Posted: 16 Aug 13 at 11:42am
really ... I find that very hard to believe ... Run me past that tidal leebow stuff again ... |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 16 Aug 13 at 11:48am
You wouldn't understand, no point. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: rogerd
Date Posted: 22 Aug 13 at 12:03pm
| Congratulations to Mike Macnamarra new Hornet national champion. Close fought nationals with 7 race winners in nine races. |
Posted By: SymBoy
Date Posted: 22 Aug 13 at 12:12pm
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Don't forget his crew Tim Riley......... |
Posted By: rogerd
Date Posted: 22 Aug 13 at 12:14pm
| Oh and his crew Tim Riley |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 Aug 13 at 2:50pm
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Well the Hornet challenge failed to materialise on Sunday although it did give a fine display of mooning its red bottom for all to admire..
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Gritts
Date Posted: 22 Aug 13 at 3:07pm
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I also sailed a Hornet a LOOOONG time ago. Indeed Malcolm Goodwin made made my last one in 1990. It was number 2160 and had a wash through system. It was one of the first with this sort of deck. I took pictures of the recent Hornet Nationals in Brightlingsea they can be found here. http://www.tb4e.com/news/view/pictures_from_brightlingsea" rel="nofollow - http://www.tb4e.com/news/view/pictures_from_brightlingsea Geoff.
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Posted By: SymBoy
Date Posted: 28 Aug 13 at 12:01pm
Geoff - By wash- through, do you mean like this? |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 28 Aug 13 at 1:24pm
what a hornet's nest... ------------- |
Posted By: John Shelton
Date Posted: 29 Aug 13 at 2:27pm
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Don't sneer - that's Strangler's boat and came second at the Nationals.
It started life with a double-bottomed crewdeck, and many people have now cut those out, as in this example, making it more comfortable for the crew, while retaining the fabled stiffness of the Goodwin hulls. One or two boats were built like this from the start, but the beauty of the Hornet is that you can choose the layout you prefer. You can get some idea of the variety http://www.hornet.org.uk/default.asp?page=228" rel="nofollow - here The latest plastic boats are true washthrough, like the one at the beginning of this thread. |
Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 29 Aug 13 at 3:18pm
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The Hornet could be a truly amazing boat if they got their act together. The rules allow for a fully battened main and battens in the foresail as well. The pole looks a bit long (2.5m) for the kite. Think it would struggle a little on the tight reach (I wonder if you could fit a monster kite from a 505 on it?? hmmm :-) ) The new one which I think you are talking about iGRF looks pretty decent, very I14 pernultimate with hard chines if you know what I mean. Though would still prefer a foredeck, never sure on boats without a foredeck just don't look right, they made a few Merlins like this I think. I would consider buying one for the rare occasions we get out on the sea up here. There were 2 at the Anglesey Offshore this year, one of which wasn't particularly pretty however came 5th (ish) |
Posted By: SymBoy
Date Posted: 29 Aug 13 at 4:21pm
Fully battened mains? Tried this many times of its sixty years including 1961... Many good sailors have tried fully-batten mains including Mike Mac, but the speed differential is just not there. Might explain why 505 and Meatballs haven't gone that way as well.... Many of the genoas already have battens Pole too long? Pole length was increased from 2 to 2.5m which improved close reaching capabilities. The class experimented with a larger spinnaker (extra cross-cut panel), but this proved a handful. There is some discussion in the class as whether the optimum length is slightly shorter than 2.5m..... |
Posted By: Matt Jackson
Date Posted: 29 Aug 13 at 4:40pm
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Looks just like my first Hornet (K603) which also had a fully battened mainsail... I never even ran it up the mast. ------------- Laser 203001, Harrier (H+) 36 |
Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 29 Aug 13 at 4:55pm
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"Many good sailors have tried fully-batten mains including Mike Mac, but the speed differential is just not there"
This is not strictly true. If you look at a Solo sail from the late 70s/ early 1980s compared with one from today - both being fully battened, I'm sure you'll agree that there is a huge difference. And so it was with Hornet mains: those from earlier days, with heavy and fairly unresponsive battens had their moments. It wasn't that the speed differential wasn't there - it wasn't consistent. You'd fly in some conditions, for the rest you'd struggle. Then, with the help of the Team at Banks sails, we made a 'modern' fully battened main, using lightweight tapered battens and a great deal of care on how the sail shape would behave across the full spectrum of wind conditions. For starters, we also found that you needed to make a fairly radical change to the cut of the genoa - once this was done, the sails were an immediate success (the classic speed straight out of the sail bag). In very light conditions you might be at a slight disadvantage but that could also have been helm weight - as soon as the crew could move up onto the side deck you easily had comparable speed, any more breeze than that and the rig showed a clear speed advantage. In classic Hornet conditions - a good old fashioned 'blow' the fully battened main was wonderful - you had some much control over the rig and how you wanted to sail - footing off or going for pointing. At the time, one other fully battened main was made that was equally successful but the conservatism in the class and the risks of investing an 'all new' rig put most punters off. 2 seasons ago I was PRO for the Hornet Nationals so had a good chance to see the current rig at work - nothing I saw there suggested to me that a fully battened main wouldn't be equally good - if not better - today! d ------------- Dougal H |
Posted By: John Shelton
Date Posted: 29 Aug 13 at 6:07pm
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I tend to agree with you Dougal. I'd love to experiment with a fully-battened main. I presume you were talking about that Banks jobbie you had on Gingernuts (2038?) - always looked nice, as did the ones that Tony Smith (of Contender fame) built.
The last time the Worlds were in Australia, the UK Goodwin boats were clobbered by Gordon Lucas in a non-Goodwin boat, and...a fully battened sail. But the Aussies knew a thing or two about making them at the time The longer pole was part of the package to also increase the kite size, but the second part of the deal never got through  . The experiments with the larger kite were hobbled (IMO) by a desire to base it on an existing kite with extra panels, to save everyone having to buy a completely new sail. It wasn't unmanageable, it was just not a very good sail. If a complete redesign had been done, then I think it would have added a bit of extra sparkle, but hey. But the narrow hull wouldn't really be compatible with a 505-esque monster.
We used a 2.38 metre pole on the last boat for some good engineering reasons, but it's a secret. Carbon mast, fully battened main, bigger kite. Lovely! |
Posted By: Dougaldog
Date Posted: 29 Aug 13 at 6:24pm
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Ha John....almost right - Ginger Nuts was 2046. I have the picture up on the wall here - with Mikey Todd (of Pink Hammer skiff fame) crewing for me - sailing had been binned for the day but I went and did a 'demo' job for the Banks rig. I also had a small input into the Smith rig too..... one day..... one day, when the time is right, I'll put pen to paper and write the story of 'battened main gate' (it made Watergate look like Andy Pandy).
The reason why most classes don't go fully battened is that they were specifically banned within the class rules. If you think the Hornet went well under fully battened, the Greg Gregory Ghost - his 15ft long mega-Cherub, had a high aspect fully battened main and despite the size, was sailed at Hamble with the FD fleet!! Super quick! D ------------- Dougal H |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 29 Aug 13 at 6:39pm
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Think the Hornet must be about the only class in the world that permits full battened sails yet most sailors don't use them.
2.5m kite pole too long? We had a 2.74m pole on the Cherubs back in the 60s. Not really any such thing as a too long pole frm the sail setting point of view, but there's most definitely such a thing as an incorrectly cut and sheeted sail. |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 29 Aug 13 at 7:07pm
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I have many a fond memory of Hornets having sailed alongside Nick & Sue Russell for many years. Fantastic understated boats, much like the Marauder. Could have been so so good if the 90s assymetric revolution hadnt got in the way.
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Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 29 Aug 13 at 7:23pm
| Wouldn't go as far as a carbon mast, though I think the rules allow for a carbon boom. Would be tempted to deck step and enable raking like the Scorpions and Merlins |
Posted By: John Shelton
Date Posted: 29 Aug 13 at 8:17pm
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yup, carbon booms are OK, as are carbon foils, and other bits - just not in the hull, mast and sails, Deck stepped should be OK, but I think one of the bands on the mast has to be at the sheerline, which means the mast extending below that level (but I am probably wrong)
Dougal, would love to hear about Battengate - that must have passed me by |
Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 29 Aug 13 at 8:22pm
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Just had a look at the class website, a bit outdated. Need to get a top helm and crew to take one out in a blow with a camera on the back and get it going flat out. Enquired about 2138 a while back, very tempted if it wasn't the other end of the country
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Posted By: John Shelton
Date Posted: 29 Aug 13 at 8:55pm
| where are you? certainly can be arranged if you want to have a blast |
Posted By: SymBoy
Date Posted: 29 Aug 13 at 10:02pm
I'm intrigued now - if fully battened mains are better, why haven't the likes of 505 and Fireball changed their rules to allow them? It would appear to be such a simple way to improve performance..... |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 30 Aug 13 at 8:26am
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Merlins tried them long ago and didn't like them. It upset the balance of the rig, and I suppose there was no perceived reason to go through the lengthy and costly development process to get them to work.
I guess with 505s and Fireballs especially that the racing is so good that there is no need to upset the applecart. For a season or two you'll have the development years where one or the other might be faster, then after 4 or 5 seasons everyone will have the same kit an you'll be back where you started. just because something is though to be "better" doesn't mean its worth reinventing the wheel to adopt it :) ------------- |
Posted By: rogerd
Date Posted: 30 Aug 13 at 11:07am
Dougal has been threatening/promising to publish battengate for years. Its all just journo hype.
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