Contender Worlds Scoring
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11001
Printed Date: 16 Jul 25 at 6:05am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Contender Worlds Scoring
Posted By: 2547
Subject: Contender Worlds Scoring
Date Posted: 26 Jul 13 at 11:59am
|
http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/171121/Contender-worlds-at-Lake-Como-summary" rel="nofollow - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/171121/Contender-worlds-at-Lake-Como-summary
Does not look right; the guy in 2nd scores better or equal results in all but one race and loses ... I know there was a qualification process and the weather cut the series short but it just does not look like the right bloke won ...
|
Replies:
Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 26 Jul 13 at 12:12pm
|
It was a difficult scoring system which we wanted to avoid explaining in the report but basically If we had completed 8 races we would have achieved 2 discards; only 1 of which could be used in the gold/sliver fleet races(due to these races being more critical).
As we only achieved 1 discard it had to be used in the qualification series. If we had managed 1 more race Si mussel would have drop a 10th and would had probably won. Ultimately Soren sailed better results in the higher value race (made even more valuable by there only being 2 of them. ------------- |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 26 Jul 13 at 12:24pm
| Well these scoring systems seem flawed and reading the report it seems there was a recognition the wrong guy won even though he clearly sailed very well. |
Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 26 Jul 13 at 12:33pm
|
Well the scoring system was well known beforehand and Si was well aware of the precarious position he was in. Soren acknowledged in his speech that 1 bad result had lost it.
Perhaps the report makes to much of a point of this as it is written by the BCA and naturally favours GBR sailors. Si will be back for the next one in Aus he has scored 5th,4th,3rd, and 2nd in the last 4 Internationals he has entered, so fate is on his side. ------------- |
Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 26 Jul 13 at 12:48pm
|
I agree that the scoring is flawed when you do not complete enough races to spread the discards.
I believe that they are trying to deal with the problem of split fleet qualification. With standard scoring potentially the winner could sail a superb qualification and bomb the finals but still win by discarding 2 gold fleet results. This way (if enough races had been completed) it make the gold fleet more critical than the qualifier as it should be. Unfortunately this delicate balance slipped too far in favour of the gold fleet with 0 discards allowed. ------------- |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 26 Jul 13 at 1:00pm
|
what's wrong with the old system that utilised the entire championship timeframe to see who was the best across the wind range possibilities? Anyway, not knocking the event as a whole- it looks amazing seeing that many great boats out sailing. For anyone at my level the scoring system would be a moot point. With the Finn & OK Europeans on at the moment too, this is really a fantastic summer of sailing coverage from the various outlets.... loving these real classes shining a beacon of opportunity on the sport. With regards the runner up, he's been synonymous with the class for a long time, that's a bloody good record- I remember 10 years ago looking into the Contender (it, vs a 600 where what dragged me here in the first place).... he was a top name back then too. ------------- |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 26 Jul 13 at 1:09pm
I have no doubt that the event was run in accordance to the SI;s ... with an event overseen by an IJ no doubt it was very well run. I just think the event was designed with too little emphasis on the earlier performances. With a system where by the event was at some risk if the weather did not play ball in the final days I think the earlier results needed more emphasis or the fleet cut needed to kick in a bit earlier to give more time for the finals. I see some of the Olympic events are doing this too ... it seems to be all about the finals.
|
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 26 Jul 13 at 1:16pm
there is some justification, when film crews and sponsors ARE more important than competitors and fair gamesmanship.... much to the derision of various competitor twitter feeds, however the Contender Worlds should be free from that bullish*t. ------------- |
Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 26 Jul 13 at 1:25pm
|
I am very biast, these types of event are what keep me sailing the contender. The boat rewards loyalty, there are very few ringers in the fleet and those that try usually don't win the worlds. Mr Mussell has served his time at the back of the fleet as have most of the top guys. For this reason there is very little them and us attitude between front middle and back. Weekend warriors have a realistic chance of acheiving a topten result if they stick at it which makes for a pleasant atmosphere.
------------- |
Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 26 Jul 13 at 1:30pm
|
Happily there is very little bull, I think that the scoring was an honest attempt to balence the value of quallies and finals.the execution turn out differently than expected but hopefully the class can learn and ammend. ------------- |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 26 Jul 13 at 1:32pm
That's the point; learn and move on ... a great turn out for a good class at a good venue ... Just a shame the wrong guy was given the title.
|
Posted By: hobbiteater
Date Posted: 26 Jul 13 at 1:36pm
| interestingly (or not) the glider boys are discussing about adopting a dropped score system as opposed to the current every day/race counts system |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 26 Jul 13 at 1:41pm
you're coming across as very good advocate for your class... happy sailing EJ!!! ------------- |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 28 Jul 13 at 6:02pm
|
I went all the way to Canada for the 2008 worlds. I beat the other female sailor in five out of the nine races, but she won the title because she had a beter points score than me (though we had to go to countback to work this out) This happened because although I sailed out of my skin on the last day, beating her in all three of that day's races and with no top batten, it was really windy at the start of the day so a lot of the tail enders (Canadians) didn't race, so I din't have enough sailors to put between me and her to get the points difference.. I didn't grumble because that was the way it was. Rules is rules and you learn to live with it. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 28 Jul 13 at 6:04pm
|
and anyway, it doesn't seem like a worlds with just one other competitor. I need to get to a European Worlds with the German and Swiss women. Completely gutted to have missed this one.
------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 28 Jul 13 at 7:58pm
|
Can't say I see the logic of that at all, the best sailor didn't win, I've no idea if this is to do with the no justice scoring system they're using for Olympic TV or why it is, but it is total bollox and wrong, it needs fixing, none Olympic classes should return to the way it was, I assume the last race which in my day would have simply been his discard had to count so he chucked the 2nd, discarded a 2nd to come second, honestly and you want sailing to seem appealing?
It's f**ked up. Not as if it's a really big fleet. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 29 Jul 13 at 11:26am
|
perhaps some one could post a copy of the relevant SI so that we could appreciate the sublties of the scoring sytem used!
------------- Gordon |
Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 29 Jul 13 at 11:56am
|
I believe the idea is ensure that results from the final series are valued more highly as they clearly harder to do well in (double the amount of top sailors). It is wrong to be able to discard 50% of these scores in favour of qualifying results against lesser competition. If we had completed 3 final race the discard would have been usable in the final series.
Everyone agrees that it better just for everyone to race the whole series together but 180 boats at Como is hard to manage which leaves you with a compromise and complication. At the time it felt like a fair enough system, it looks bad on paper as its hard to appreciate the quality difference between qualifying and final series. Heres the SI's on discards. 21.4 (a) When fewer than 5 races have been completed, a boat’s regatta score will be the total of her race scores. (b) When from 5 to 8 races have been completed, a boat’s regatta score will be the total of her race scores excluding her worst score. However, a score from a race in the final series may be excluded only if three or more final-series races have been completed. (c) When 9 or more races have been completed, a boat’s regatta score will be the total of her race scores excluding her two worst scores. However, only one score from the final series may be excluded. ------------- |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 29 Jul 13 at 12:12pm
I think the lesson is to have a think about what happens if your event becomes impacted by uncooperative weather conditions. The above looks like a rule that would typically be written for a standard single fleet event. In this case the event has pretty much turned into a 2 race event; the guy who finished 26th must be pretty unhappy too ... |
Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 29 Jul 13 at 12:22pm
|
Yes, this system works fine if you can get to 9 races and the actual result of 7 races with 2 final was probably the combination that highlighted the weaknesses most.
If it was a single fleet there would be no need breaking qualifying into 2 fleet and having a final series (everything after the word 'however' goes away!), we would have just raced 7 races in the standard fashion. This system only comes into use when you have too many competitor for 1 mass start. ------------- |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 29 Jul 13 at 12:28pm
Perhaps the solution moving forwards is for a shorter qualifying series; with say a 3 race qualifier you quickly work out who is in the gold fleet; there may be some mid fleet guy that perhaps ends up the wrong side of the cut but that is better than what happened in Como. What happened to the guy in 26th?
|
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 29 Jul 13 at 12:29pm
|
TBH the bloke who won beat the other bloke more than once and was more consistent. I can't see much justification for the saying the other bloke was a better (or worse) sailor, they are clearly both capable of beating each other. I can't say I like medal race type scoring, but the scenario where the winner does not need to sail the last day is not perfect either IMHO.
|
Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 29 Jul 13 at 12:34pm
|
He had an accident with another boat but carried on racing after ensuring the guy was ok. Racing rules say that you should retire and stay with the damaged vessel (this is how it was explained to me apologies if this not technically accurate)). The jury awarded him a non dicardable disq. We felt that this ruling is more for offshore yachts where there is a real danger associated with accidents but 'rules is rules' and the jury had a slow day up til then!. ------------- |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 29 Jul 13 at 12:35pm
They do if they want to maintain the respect of their peers..... or at least provide the boat up for someone else, or go out on a coach boat with a video camera or do something altruistic to benefit others. (And that's not withstanding the argument that they have a duty of care to the competition below them to race as hard as they can, to ensure other people's final race isn't imbalanced). Sitting around like some minor deity because you don't need to race makes you look like a bit of t**ser who doesn't appreciate you are very lucky to be on holiday at a sailing regatta.... imho.
------------- |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 29 Jul 13 at 12:36pm
Well done the IJ ...   |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 29 Jul 13 at 12:38pm
If you have won with a race to spare you'd be daft to race ... the IJ may give you a DNE and then you have clutched defeat from the jaws of victory.
|
Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 29 Jul 13 at 12:40pm
|
In response to the shorter qualifying, that does seem logical but I cant help thinking It might just be hind sight; up until the last day the wind had been reliable and a 6/4 race split was agreed to be optimum. The system beat me more than most (Si Mussell excluded) as I was in 17th until a breakage on the only finals day gave me 2 non dicardable DNCs and dropped me 42 places, boo!
Ah well still the best regatta I've ever done. ------------- |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 29 Jul 13 at 12:41pm
|
Good point, I guess.... Still, when i read about those sitting out on the shore of the last day I still think that sounds a t**ser-ish thing to do.... ------------- |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 29 Jul 13 at 12:42pm
Well it of course is but we learn from experience; if I'm planning a split fleet regatta I will use this observation of try and avoid a similar situation.
|
Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 29 Jul 13 at 12:47pm
|
The IJ, yes that another story. In a class that allows pumping in over 10knot and wont races until its 6, there is rarely anything for them to do that cant be sorted on the water in a grown up 'we go sailing because we like not cause its life or death' way. This is made worse when we need 5 to authorise a worlds and their expenses are over half of the entry fee!. Does not make sailing very accessible for class that is run on good will. ------------- |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 29 Jul 13 at 1:10pm
|
You're not the only only class that suffers from the costs of IJs at Worlds. At least you've got huge numbers of entry fees. ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 29 Jul 13 at 1:43pm
I'd love a view from one of our Judges on that! Very poor application of the letter of the law if you ask me.
|
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 29 Jul 13 at 2:50pm
Why don't you do what the RS100s do(did?) and just not bother ... Edit: See NP post: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6340&KW=RS100+jury&PID=1346571&title=the-rs100-owners-thread#1346571" rel="nofollow - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6340&KW=RS100+jury&PID=1346571&title=the-rs100-owners-thread#1346571 |
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 29 Jul 13 at 3:03pm
|
The system beat me more than most (Si Mussell excluded) as I was in 17th until a breakage on the only finals day gave me 2 non dicardable DNCs and dropped me 42 places, boo! Ah well still the best regatta I've ever done. Rotten luck, but as you know it's the taking part that counts  - which from what I've seen and heard (sadly not first hand ) applied more to the Como Worlds than to most sporting events!------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 29 Jul 13 at 3:19pm
But is the RS100 still an ISAF class? I'd have thought it would be an RS100 8.4 and RS100 10.2 now the vote split went through....  ------------- |
Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 29 Jul 13 at 3:32pm
|
Sargesail, I'm sure you are right to be suspicious about my poor explantion of a situation I heard about second hand. I'm sure there must be more to it, but being objectively accurate in every technical sense is so much more tedious than the easy paraphrasing. ------------- |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 29 Jul 13 at 3:34pm
|
You can only run without an IJ, using the "we're too poor" excuse, for so long before ISAF get a bit annoyed. As far as I know we got the IJ for the B14 Worlds through some generous sponsorship- I head FFV (French governing body) being mentioned. ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 29 Jul 13 at 4:05pm
|
Al- do you have to get official dispensation from ISAF for not running an IJ? Or is it just something they turn a blind eye to if one isn't requested? ------------- |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 29 Jul 13 at 4:36pm
|
Official dispensation. They do give it, but as far as I know they grumble. Their alternative of course would be to see a big reduction in International classes. ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 29 Jul 13 at 9:11pm
I'm more suspicious of the judges if I'm honest!
|
Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 29 Jul 13 at 9:41pm
|
Yes I have been reading about this today and I can find nothing to suggest a accident must result in a DNE. He should have retired under rule 44 but that oversight would have ended in DSQ. ------------- |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 30 Jul 13 at 9:04am
As it turns out the ijs enthusiasm makes no difference because he had to score that result anyway.
|
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 31 Jul 13 at 8:42am
|
I Iy would help if someone could provide accurate details of the incident. If the incident caused serios damage or injury then a 2T penalty is not applicable and the boat should retire. It would only become a DNE if the Jury decides that rule 2, Unfair Sailing was broken. 2. There is a lot of nonsense talked about the cost of International Juries. If the Jury costs a lot it is usually because the organisers think about recruiting their jury too late. First recruit a local judge (IJ or candidate IJ) at least a year in advance. Let him find - the Aussie/NZ/American judge who will be in Europe anyway. Then find two judges who live near a low cost airport linked to near the venue. Tnen the local judge and another from same country. Allow them to book very early and offer to reimburse them immediately they have bought there tickets (an IJ cannhave hudreds, if not thousands of euros/pounds out in fares). Accomodation - self-catering, with club members or a B&B (as long as it is walking distance of the club) Food - pay a reasonable per diem and let them get on with it (unless club can cater). I am at an event at which the totoal cost of the jury is equivalent to about 8 entry fees. Travel expenses came in at less than 700 euros. Gordon PS Alternatively - invite me to the event and I will do the recruiting for you. Apply now for 2014 and 2015 events! ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 31 Jul 13 at 10:22am
I don't think so ... Lets price it up ... you have to have 5 IJs & an equipment inspector. Lets work on £80/night for a B&B twin rooms so you need 3. Assume you get a local & an expat so their travel expenses would be say £50/head x 2 then 3 overseas assuming no-one has to come long haul so £200/head x3 Then say you offer them £40 / day subsistence. All that is pretty budget and multiply it up over a 7 day event. Expenses = 50x2 + 200x3 = £700 Accommodation = 80x3x7 = £1680 Subsistence = 40x6x7 = £1680 Total = £4060 That is a lot of a smaller class to sustain even for a 100 boat fleet it £40/boat on the entry fee. I think for non-Olympic international classes a 5 person jury is OTT ... |