Is Wind Guru killing our sport?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10956
Printed Date: 16 Jul 25 at 7:49am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Is Wind Guru killing our sport?
Posted By: Ruscoe
Subject: Is Wind Guru killing our sport?
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 1:41pm
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Ok a bit tongue in cheek really. But speaking to friends in other fleets who spend their time pulling their boats up and down the country to go to travelers events. There have been instances where numbers at opens have been significantly down. This is usually coupled with an interesting forecast (light or loads) of wind. The Lord Birkett this weekend could of been an example. I had a couple of club mates decide not to go because the forecast looked awful. The Saturday actually turned out to be one of the best winds I have ever raced in at the Birkett and the Sunday was more than sailable if a little light for my own liking. For me part of the art of sailing is facing whatever nature chucks at you, however I will hold my hands up and say I am guilty of staying at home courtesy of Mystic 'Windguru' Meg. So I guess it begs the question, who checks the forecast then makes a decision. Or even better who ignores the forecast and ends up have a great sail? ------------- |
Replies:
Posted By: mongrel
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 1:47pm
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More like - Is the price of fuel killing our sport?
A lot of people at the moment are money poor & time poor. If a poor weather forecast helps them decide to spend their time with their family and save the fuel & B&B costs, then so be it.
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 2:23pm
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The long standing members at our club reckoned the anemometer put people off going out when it was first installed. "We used to go out in all conditions cos we never knew how hard the wind was blowing". These days there seems to be 2 schools of thought: Those that want to plan the weekend ahead dependant on the weather and those who want numbers at the club regardless of the weather. Can't say I blame windguru for the decline in participation though.......don't shoot the messenger and all that. Just a speculation......we've already discussed various practical reason why there is a decline but if you go back a few years there seemed to be a greater need for socialising. More folk went out to meet like minded people because it was the only way to make contact with the outside world. If sailors couldn't sail because of the weather they still enjoyed the club atmosphere.......What's the situation now? Churches with falling attendance, Pubs closing down wholesale, high street shops closing.........perhaps the world (at least this part of it) is becoming less social, perhaps folk are getting their social fix in other ways. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 2:26pm
Yes, it is. If an event is put on, and you were planning on going, said you were going, all the arrangements have been made in terms of lunches, prizes bought based on numbers who say they are going, then backing out at the last minute because there is a light wind forecast seems a very poor show. Somehow if gales are forecast it desn't seem quite so bad - maybe the idea of not sailing because of light winds is a new thing, brought about by some modern boats being so crappy in lighter airs, whereas not sailing because you'll get blown flat in 2 minutes is as old as sailing itself. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 2:51pm
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Obviously there have been weather forecasts for donkeys years, but the ability to get more detailed forecasts is now easier then ever. It just strikes me that its making it easier for people to find a reason not to sail. I am sure there are a load of other issues as to why people are not travelling. But 'Windguru' seems to be a reason i am hearing more and more. I rarely hear i'm not travelling to that open because f the fuel costs. As mentioned before, i am as guilty as the next man/woman at trying to find a reason not to travel. But in reality surely its better a bad day on the water then a good day cutting the lawn!?!? ------------- |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 2:54pm
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People have actually started believing them, that is the difference...
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 3:24pm
To be honest, there is nothing worse than a bad day on the water...
I think the problem is the accuracy of the forecasts. I prefer to call them guesses. I missed out on a great open a few years ago because the forecast was dire and the actual conditions were perfect. Likewise, one of our best championships in recent years, at Prestwick in 2010, was forecast not to have winds over 8 knots on any of the 4 days. In actual fact after the first day the wind never dropped below 12. On the last day is blew 20 knots when the evening before the forecast was for 7. ------------- Steve B RS300 411 https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 3:29pm
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Russ, yep the excuse is mostly windguru, but I think that it is tired in with the fuel cost. "I'm not bothering to travel for the hours of the wind is terrible as it's now worth the cost" might be nearer the truth. however if the forecast is good then the cost may get ignored.
As time is tougher for a lot then why cash in the brownie points to sail in little wins. Better to keep them for those few champagne days. ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Phil_1193
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 4:02pm
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Yes and no I remeber in late 80's early 90's ringing the 0800 marine call number (ended in 455 for Wash to North Foreland) to get the inshore forecast to see if it was worth going or not. Still do same thing now just don't need to stand in the hall with a phone to one ear frantically writing and trying to keep up because it can be done at your own pace at pretty much anytime! There has been a bit of an arguement that clubs showing 'live' weather puts people off. I don't agree. Generally if you plan to go sailing you will go. Someone will find a report saying no wind for a venue when someone else will chip in with one saying itll be blowing its tits off! Most of the time Wind Guru is wrong anyway, yesterday it said 3knts with 8knt gusts, was actually blowing 10-15knts for most of the day! Apathy is killing the sport and the ease of getting weather forecasts is just the excuse most need not to do something. |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 4:20pm
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I like the last bit Phil. Excuses are easier to come by than they used to be.
I use windfinder and it seems to be more accurate on the whole than windguru . Certainly better than the BBC. Wind appears to be getting more diverse at weekends. Either loads or none, what has happened to the middle ground? Either that or it only happens on the 5 days a year I can actually sail these days..... ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 4:30pm
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Narrow wind range boats are driving us all towards a planing only mentality... or that's what I found with kited boats anyway. Nowadays for me, it's simple... Crap forecast, bank brownie points for another day. I don't think I'd risk a coastal dash on a sea breeze forecast either- that's just sh*tty location.
I don't feel I missed any sailing this weekend, in fact the forecast was so bad I didn't bother staring at trees once. ------------- |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 4:37pm
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Not sure fuel has got much to do with it. Fuel is not that dear in real terms compared to years ago, depnds where you take your baseline. These days, cars do a lot more MPG. Other costs rack up though, B&B or camping if you have to pay, the cost of eating out etc. Personally, I spend a lot of time driving for work, to drive 2 hours to some godforsaken slurry pit in the midlands, float about in no wind and then get back to my home club to hear how they've had F4-5 and nice waves is my idea of a bad day on the water. Yes I will pencil in opens I'd like to do, then only do those where the weather is good. People who want to do lots of opens are joining the old classes that can put on a good range of opens to choose from. Some of the classes born in the past two decades have exhausted their first generation or two of keen sailors and need to either attract a new group of incomers or their circuits will shrivel up. Some host clubs are places I really want to go back to, some are not. The places that only seem to want your money and give you hassle about parking etc the moment you turn up, or don't appreciate that newcomers won't know their venue, or jack up their bar prices for visitors probably don't deserve our custom.
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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 4:50pm
Couldn't agree more, and of course the flip side is that to justify the coastal jaunt, us pond dwellers need a decent forecast. Catch 22 ... But one thing's for sure, to pack up all that sh1t and drive to someone else's crappy pond... No way, never again (not with out a very good reason anyway!) ------------- |
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 5:07pm
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If people keep not bothering to attend open meeting which clubs have to spend hours organising and using volunteer time to put on then clubs wont bother offering to run them.
If clubs have to cancel club racing to provide decent rescue boat cover for the events then they get stick from the members if it is a waste of time with very few entries. So classes need to think before asking clubs to run events. ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 5:12pm
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There are a number of members at our club who seriously question the value an open meeting has for our club.
They rarely make real money, they rarely create new members so blown away with our great facilities and they rarely appease paid up members of the club who have little to do with the actual open- esp when changing rooms, parking and catering facilities get stretched- not to mention a huge part of the lake your expected to keep out of as 'non members' get pseudo exclusive use. Why bother offering to run them? Is it an obligation? ------------- |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 5:18pm
In some classes it seems to be more of a case of returning the hospitality you got at another club the week before. |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 5:25pm
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That's nice, i can see that for active club classes, or if handicap racing is active too. but we ran a merlin open the other year, we have no merlins actively racing in our club, nor any desires as far as i'm aware to create a fleet of them. So it seemed pointless IMHO.
I'm not generalising about the merlins, but I had an incident with one of the visitors- port starboard, I was sb. I hailed, he said he was racing and I needed to 'get out of his 'effing' way'. Wrong. I dropped my rig on his nicely varnished foredeck trying to avoid last minute. He was not happy. Nor was I. I hope he doesn't return. I guess that makes me a bad person. ------------- |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 5:44pm
rule 23.1? |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 5:47pm
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I wasn't racing RRS doesn't apply. ------------- |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 5:56pm
That's kind of the point of 23.1. It is a pet hate of mine when boats that have finished or have 10 minutes to their start get in the way. Not sure how a boat racing is supposed to know you were not going to race that day? |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 6:05pm
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You can't blame freeriding windsurfers for a badly worded rule that doesn't apply to them. If in doubt, 23.1 gets trumped by common sense- port / starboard & windward / leeward.
Inland, most windsurfers work on basic colregs, even though technically it may not apply officially. Go to a wave spot and the rules are somewhat different- following surf rules about who's riding the wave in- and that's a source of confusion for those boardies who are fairly religious about colregs. ------------- |
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 6:41pm
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My tuppence worth:
Forecast watching is seriously hurting participation in some classes. Thing is, the forecasting model in windguru is such that its fairly innacurate in the last 24h. A forecast is exactly that - not a guarantee of the actual wind. I seriously think that 50% of "marginal" windy or light forecasts end up totally sailable on the day. Of course which view you take on te situation depends on how much interest in the particular game surviving you might have. If you like having an open circuit / champs then its worth turning up for obvious reasons. Family pressures obviously change priorities, so when Jimbo's kids have left home, and he is actually an appropriate age for his craft, then he may be more keen to travel. I think the other crucial thing to have is alternatives to sailing if its calm or blown off, so bikes and windsurf/kiting gear, or work computers or boatwork gear or what have you mean it's not dead time. Maybe take the family with you Jimbo! Or just have a skinful and a hand shandy under canvas like a certain forum contributor. |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 6:54pm
You are joking right? Take them away from home, ponies, Starbucks, family, peppa pig, garden, micro-scooting, cinema etc for them to sit in a generic sailing club 'wet bar' with muddy water all over the floor and crap milky tea for 50p.... No, I think not. The rest of your points are of course very valid. And I absolutely plan to do some travelling when I've retired, but I doubt it will be to northern monkey lakes and other folks gravel pits. Not unless reality doesn't live up to expectation.  ------------- |
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 7:00pm
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Ok well pick the places that have decent beaches / attractions nearby and everyone is a winner right?
Kids sail? If so take kids dinghy down and send them out to play or what have you. |
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 7:02pm
| Of course such a course of action may impact on ones freedom to drink irresponsibly / do a lot of self pollution. |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 7:09pm
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That works for windsurfing (sunshine permitting), but not for 3 back to back or a long race like the birkett
Edit: no, no dinghy sailing. Eldest is 5 and wants a pony. Little one is only 18 months, but the Tera is on order just in case! ------------- |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 7:21pm
Most clubs expect you to follow rule 24.1, 'if it is reasonably possible, a boat not racing shall not interfere with a boat that is racing'. Why crap on someone else's race just for the sake of it? Just bad manners. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 7:48pm
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Why set a course across the main planing reach line of the windsurfers? (Not that I subscribe to that view personally, it's just that one person's leisure is not more important than another's), and colregs are there to protect and regulate to avoid such issues.
Besides at near 30 knots on a board it's safer to deal with certainty of colregs, rather than dinghy sailing practice of hailing through a racing boat and discard one's rights. Either way, telling a stb sailor they have to get out of your effing way when you're on port is also quite bad mannered, IMHO. ------------- |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 9:23pm
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We have had a lot of problems with people not turning up at events. 2 solutions: 1 - a pre-entry deposit (non-refundable) to be paid 2-3 weeks before the event. This pays for those costs that will be incurred in advance, such as prizes, transport for race officials, booking catering etc. 2. Free pre-entry, but several days before the event we announce how many boats have declared their intention to participate, and announce for how many boats we intend providing rescue coverage. All boats that have contacted us a guaranteed entry, for the others, it is first come- first served and if there are too many boats for the rescue team that is tough for those boats who can't enter. Frankly I prefer to refuse entry to a few boats than to ask people to volunteer for safety boat duty only to tell them on the day that they are not needed. Volunteers are more valuable to a club than diletant competitors! ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 10:51pm
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I have to say I'd be pretty peeved off If I was the Merlin sailor!
As for forecasts putting people off, I'm not sure. I used to be concerned about webcams and weather stations at clubs, but the more I see the lack of accuracy and the more I see others notice it, the more comfortable I get. Ultimately I think forecasts are likely to be an excuse but not the actual reason. Many blokes dont want to admit that they sometimes have other priorities and we also have to remember that most of us who were circuit wallers back in the late 90s and early noughties have grown up and its a little unrealistic to expect us all to be bombing about attending circuit events and opens. I'm very lucky, I married a sailor albeit a catamaran crew, who allows me to sail more than I probably should, and we have brought our kids up at our sailing club, so its like a home from home. As a result we get to sail lots, however my opportunity to travel has dropped off. To be honest I'm happy attending one or two local opens a year but dont feel the need to travel around every other weekend. I wonder whether there are others in a similar position? When I look back to the RS singlehander regulars from 2000-2004 there are very few still actively racing. Many own cruisers, have taken up other sports and adventures or are have taken a break and are now considering racing again with kids. I wonder whether its a cycle, as one age group passes through the system? |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 11:10pm
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I think you're right about passing through the cycle- also I have even less desire to trapse around the country towig a dinghy. Did loads of it as a kid which i loved, loads more at uni which was awesome, some afterwards which was a bit of a let down tbh and now am quite happy making the most of club sailing dinghies, the odd open maybe (emphasis on fun e.g. FOM or a regatta) and have found more flexibility towards accommodating a non racing family in a cruiser abroad and windsurfing when stuck in Blighty.
(As an aside why would you be hacked off if you we're the merlin sailor? It wasn't a 'where the hell did you come from moment', they were hailed and they decided to swear back and assume a position that their race was more important than someone else's water use. Growing up near the coast I guess we learned to respect other water users, and defer to Colregs as the simplest solution. He had no idea or not if I were GPS speed running, racing or simply blasting - either way his default response to starboard hail was to say 'f#ck off' and hold course... Hardly reason to be narked off, unless of course you're the fella on starboard ;-) ------------- |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 11:18pm
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Windsurfers? Coming at us from any direction get told to foxtrot oscar if we're racing, then we sail over them if we have to, they're a pest, ranked just above fishmurderers in kayaks, which seems to be the latest water infestation that has to be summarily dealt with, 1st with a gentle warning, then a ramming.
As for wind guru, I find XC weather more accurate. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 08 Jul 13 at 11:22pm
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Whilst I wouldn't expect to be sworn at I think you were a bit naughty calling on a person racing in an open when recreational sailing in the first place.
After all when recreational sailing why would you want to get into a conflict, as an experienced racer you must have expected that type of response from a Merlin
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 09 Jul 13 at 12:00am
Both wind guru and XCweather are based on the American GFS three-cast. Personally I either look at Wetterzentrale.de which gives a lot of different sources if planning a few days hence, or look at actual wind measurements on the day. If Hurst is giving F7 and the system is coming our way, it will be breezy here in a couple of hours. I don't mind the odd trip somewhere nice and failing to race, if there are other things to do. That's more likely if the venue is Devon or Cornwall than inside the M25. I have no need of driving miles then feeling compelled to race in marginal conditions (i.e above my crew's commitrment level) and joining the gang of lads with broken masts. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 09 Jul 13 at 7:27am
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XC weather is/was used by airsport, light aircraft, hang gliding and stuff and is based around data from airports so in our local region it's handy just to tap in to what's actually going on at say Lydd or Manston. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 09 Jul 13 at 7:37am
Lol- as I said, we don't have a merlin fleet, I would have assumed they just as gentlemanly and chivalrous as the fine folks in our fireballs. To put this in context, it was during a period where the lake was down to 50% capacity. The race officer had no choice but to dump the course directly over the windsurfing beach, as to occupy any further ground east, would have interfered with local youth sailing and training. A difficult call maybe, but the right one, as in the main it's a safer bet that a windsurfer can hold their course on stb whereas a bunch of open meeting boats (of any class) hurtling through a bunch of beginner kids was a bad call. During the briefing all sailors would have been made aware of the low water spots where they could have run aground. It was very very simple, respect the basic rules of the road and everyone would be okay. If anyone assumed they were superior, then guess what, sparks would fly. AFAIK It wasn't the only incident of the day, but one of the others was definitely the windsurfer's fault displaying some what you might call 'localism' in the car park :-) ------------- |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 09 Jul 13 at 8:02am
XCweather does have recent wind history from airfields, but the forecast is from GFS, it says which data set at the bottom of the corefast column.
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 09 Jul 13 at 8:03am
Any of this kind of mumbo-jumbo just makes club sailing look better and better......
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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 09 Jul 13 at 8:32am
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So you expect a club to cater for between 10 and 50 boats or more without knowing in advance how many competitors are going to turn up. If registration ends at 0900 how do you propose to get extra crew (let alone extra RIBS) for safety boats, if needed for a 10.00 first gun. Do you ask a whole load of people to give up their weekend plans just on the off chance that sailors who cannot even be bothered to send a text message decide to turn up. If the competitors don't turn up what do you do with the volunteers (usually club members) who have turned up. A reasonable compromise is to ask competitors to contact the club before the event to let them know if they are coming, and if they later change their mind, to let the club know. ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 09 Jul 13 at 8:49am
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Hi Gordon
Do you also bin the event if you dont get enough entries? In our case with asking a club member to provide commitee boat as well it is a lot to ask for a small number of boats. Maybe Painton have it right running two events per year and only giving seperate starts to those with sensible numbers. Once we get our new clubhouse it will be something to consider for the future. Regards Gordon ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 09 Jul 13 at 9:13am
it's info like that that makes this forum so valuable- such a sensible suggestion/idea.... how comes no one's thought of it around our way. thanks for posting  ------------- |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 09 Jul 13 at 9:14am
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Homonym1277 Yes we have cancelled events because there weren't enough competitors -this we we binned a keelboat team racing event. A local club has cancelled a National Champioships this year because there were too few entries. Competitors generally feel grateful that the club has been honest with them, and not got them to travel for a non-event. ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 09 Jul 13 at 9:24am
Most clubs I know have a local club rule or byelaw that states that recreational sailing can only take place either well away from where an open meeting is being held or is only permitted at the discretion of the PRO. This works well as the RO and say 'Yes but sail in this area' or 'No you may only sail between races'. This works quite well at Hunts and we do get a few spectators for some of the bigger meetings. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 09 Jul 13 at 9:41am
True on the sea, not necessarily true inland. On a single use water I suggest its much more practical to sail completely under RRS and then everyone knows where they are. I'm sure I've seen this under at least one club's rules. Of course it only works at a sailing only club where everyone can be expected to have at least as good a knowledge of RRS as they do of IRPCAS. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 09 Jul 13 at 9:47am
It's a fine line, but what you are doing can shut out people who don't regularly do events, particularly club sailors who might get persuaded to travel by their club mates. Those are the people who might come back next year. If you only want to deal with people who plan well in advance, that's up to you, but you are potentially excluding a lot of people.
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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 09 Jul 13 at 10:32am
I can see why it would make sense, and under current RRS I would be expected to keep clear. (I see it's been re-worded in the latest rule set to make it less ambiguous- 24.1 which is explicitly removed in the Part 2 opening paragraphs limiting rules to those racing, intending to race or just finishing iirc) However there is the practicality issue you highlight around RRS- you'll never get windsurfers, kite surfers, insurance companies, the MAIB and the inflammatory journalism of the Daily Mail in the event of a serious injury to put RRS above Colregs- or at least our basic understanding of them. If you're on port, then you are obliged to give way to starboard- unless you are both racing it the same race, when some special circumstances might apply. That is my understanding of it anyway... and the same reason I disagree with some wave sailors on their views about who 'owns' the wave. Having sailed in Poole Harbour at low tide with fishing, commercial, kites, canoes, Stand Up paddle boards, windsurfers, cat sailors and dinghies- racing and not. I think the dinghy racer who expects every one else to keep out his way, no matter what tack he is on, is going to come across as a bit of an arrogant prick- especially if he tells someone to get out of the f*cking way as he's 'racing'. ------------- |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 09 Jul 13 at 10:38am
Fine, but at our club there's usually enough space for it to never be an issue, we pay a premium for the space compared to other inland clubs in our area. Force the acerage down to sub 50% (if you include non sailable sections due to depth) as was the case in 2011 and we had the same issues as smaller waters which have to make these sorts of rules acceptable. Just don't expect those windsurfers (the largest club fleet) to return at the end of the year to cough up their £400 membership fee when they are told they 'cannot sail' on a windy weekend, just because some non-members are racing dinghies which aren't even representation of a club class. Anyway the point bring this up was about open meetings and whether running them is worth it, especially for non-club classes.... I guess not, we haven't had a Merlin open since. ------------- |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 09 Jul 13 at 10:39am
Basically I agree, with the caveats being context and approach. This weekend our club course cut across a narrow marina channel and there was plenty of recreational sailing, fish-murdering and SUP going on. No incidents. There's a big difference between "out the f*cking way I'm racing" and "I'm racing, all right to pass ahead?", even polite hand gestures work between a racing dinghy and a big yacht / stink boat in terms of communicating that you want to pass ahead or behind. I've seen both and on one occassion in Cornwall years ago seen punches thrown on a beach over this kind of thing... end of the day, it's like the people who get furious about contra-flows on roads or punchy over traffic incidents... sad really.
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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 09 Jul 13 at 10:47am
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absolutely- and given the right approach I'm sure I would have passed below him. But I called starboard initially for sense of self preservation... travelling at 25+ knots you tend to want to make people aware of you, especially if they might not be looking- iirc he didn't have laminates. Maybe he was just surprised that a windsurfer even knew the difference and knew to hail... I recall trying to tell a mate the difference and his response was: 'so, your sail is on the left, but you are actually on starboard and therefore in the right, as starboard is right, right?' 'yes' 'well that's just the sort on nonsensical reverse logic I'd expect from dinghy sailor who pushes the stick in the opposite direction' 'okay, try thinking about it from perspective of 'the side that the wind fills the sail on.' 'erm, both.... depending on whether I want to accelerate or decelerate, and what about kiters?' ------------- |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 09 Jul 13 at 11:05am
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In all seriousness windsurfers bless us/them are regarded as beach toys sailed by morons by the dingherati since the day I first hailed starboard and was duly mowed down by a Miracle in Folkestone Harbour, so you wouldn't expect them to even have a clue what 'starboard' rights are and as you point out in different territories different right of way rules might apply to the wave bothering windsurfer and they've even got that wrong and are at odds with surfers over wave rights.
So if you're windsurfing stay out of the effing way and if you're dinghy sailing shout at them til they fall in is the answer and try not to scratch your boat when you sail over the board bit. I shall bring my board up to the FOM then sail it around backwards on starboard, see if that doesn't confuse the f**k out of things... Then I might put a kite up for further entertainment.
Er what's this got to do with wind guru? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 09 Jul 13 at 11:18am
it would be:  ------------- |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 09 Jul 13 at 11:46am
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In reply to RS400at C Funnily enough it is not the newbies who create the problem. They are the ones who call 3 times in the week before the event. There are far more problems with the experienced sailors, who may be campaigning several boats, who expect to be able to make a last minue decision and full facilities be available instantly. However, with such guys they tend to learn any lesson very quickly. We had a recurring problem with one class who always turned up late for our club regatta. We wrote the SIs so that a final decision on classes, starts and prizes would be made no later than 10 minutes after the official close of registration on the basis of those boats registered on time. At which time only 2 of this class had bothered to fill in their form and stump up the cash. When the other sailors in the class strolled in to the Race Office 30 minutes later they were somewhat surprised to learn that they were sailing in the PY Handicap fleet! Never had that problem again! ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 09 Jul 13 at 11:52am
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SO I think the answer is yes, windguru does have a negative effect on traveller sailling events. The flip side... it's make club racing all the more attractive and if I'm being honest, the prospect of getting out for a quick sail at the club if it's looking okay, fits far better with my current lifestyle than dedicating entire weekends to some road trip that might or might not end up being too windy/too light. ------------- |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 09 Jul 13 at 11:56am
We run some very successful open meetings for clubs that do not have 'class' status. The British Moth, Europe and Topper are 2 that spring to mine. The first 2 are run in conjunction with club racing though (but with a separate start) whereas the Toppers get a day to themselves. It usually works quite well even with 15-20 visiting boats. The other advantage of them being run in conjunction with club racing is that the duty crews are usually already available. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 09 Jul 13 at 12:16pm
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15- 20 visitng boats... £20 per head, another tenner across the bar/galley. £600 income. minus fuel costs. minus damages and share of fixed cost like insurances and cost of sale in the bar/galley. So say £100 fixed costs- minimum. £500 gross profit vs 10 volunteers contributing what, av. 8 hours per person as a minimum if we include all the pre-event and post-event admin. £6.25 per hour sweat rate.... you could raise more doing a bikini car wash or an (implied) nude calendar. (Holman will love that.) Could be worse I guess, however at our club if we lost one member as a result of an incident from an open that raised a paltry £500, then the it would completely nullify the objectives- assuming the objectives is to make some money for the club to keep fees down, and not just be a good corinthian family friendly sailing centre, in a bubble of jovial 'visiting yachtsmen welcome' loveliness.  ------------- |
Posted By: ex laser
Date Posted: 09 Jul 13 at 12:35pm
sorry james, nobody in the forty years draycote has been open, has it ever been described as a 'corinthian family friendly sailing centre'  and before you rip me apart, i do know its all changed for the better in the last couple of years.  ------------- |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 09 Jul 13 at 12:36pm
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Your club is expensive..... Membership at Hunts is of the order of around £150 per year and we charge between £8 and £10 per boat for an open meeting (maybe a little more for double handers). We see it as a way of publicising the club and attracting new members (which we have had a few in the past). We also have a very active local youth racing series with 4 other local clubs where entry is £1/head. There are usually big turnouts for these with entries of 50+ at times. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 09 Jul 13 at 12:40pm
Why would I rip you apart in an overly defensive mode of denial? You are spot on Duncan! We pay a premium to effectively get exclusive use of a large patch of water with professional rescue cover 363 days a year. (I'd rather be honest...) That's the way I see it. I only rejoined as frankly windsurfing anywhere smaller / more enclosed was pointless.
------------- |
Posted By: ex laser
Date Posted: 09 Jul 13 at 12:43pm
its always a pleasure to sail at hunts. because, 1) its a very friendly club 2) its always windy! 3)and unlike some other clubs, we never have any problems when sailing with in the club racing. ------------- |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 09 Jul 13 at 12:45pm
yep, so hopefully you understand why there is some reluctance for open meetings (freeloader days they are sometimes called!!!  ) from some people- and it's not just windsurfers. I do think for club fleets there is an incentive to showcase our own fleet racing- and also the Dash is a 'once a year thing' for everyone. So these have some merits for keeping us on the map, although being truly Machiavellian, I hope they make a lot of money for the club, as I'm not convinced any opens or the Dash has resulted in a single new long term member, although I admit I'm guessing on that. ------------- |
Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 09 Jul 13 at 12:49pm
| I may start referring to you as "daddy" from now on Jimbo |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 09 Jul 13 at 12:52pm
definitely a soundtrack for a Cherub go pro video... [TUBE]pire_v6eePM[/TUBE] ------------- |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 09 Jul 13 at 12:58pm
Thanks We always have either an excess of wind or no wind at all on open meeting days..... ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: patj
Date Posted: 14 Jul 13 at 8:19am
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Book the Hunts winds for August Bank Holiday please!
Anyway why blame WindGuru? Personally I check WindGuru, BBC and at least one other forecast before making sailing decisions and it's usually whether or not to club sail. If we've planned to travel we usually go anyway to support the event and decide whether or not to sail based on the conditions on the day. This year we even travelled to the combined cvrda open and club away weekend with no boat and no intention to sail (helm injured), just for the weekend away with friends.
|
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 14 Jul 13 at 10:32am
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I think Windguru is being used as a representative of all the much more detailed (and therefore believeable) wind forecasts now available. If I had believed them yesterday, I'd not have taken the Lightning to Cookham, where I had a wonderful day out, even if the wind on the river verged on madness. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 14 Jul 13 at 10:39am
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same here, a fair few people looked at the forecast and decided not to come to the race training. The 17 boats that did had an excellent time. The forecast was wrong.
------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: rogerd
Date Posted: 14 Jul 13 at 8:26pm
| I travelled to Wraysbury yesterday(160mile round trip and 3hours+ in the car) with a no wind forecast because I didnt want to let a friend down. I probably wouldnt have gone but I had promised to sail one of his boats for him. On arrival the forecast was spot on, flat calm but I reckon all that tarmac at Heathrow and all those RR engines must make the air move about a bit and we soon had a gentle breeze with both hiking occasionally and had a great day if shifty. |
Posted By: rogerd
Date Posted: 14 Jul 13 at 8:29pm
+1
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Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 14 Jul 13 at 10:49pm
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Well poor wind forecast didn't stop 72 boats from 22 different clubs turning up to the Medway Regatta - had a fantastic weekend despite the peculiar winds, and great to race against other Alto's for the first time.
Knackered now though... ------------- |
Posted By: robin34024
Date Posted: 14 Jul 13 at 11:49pm
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Poor wind forecast for the whole week certainly didn't stop 116 boats, 20 or so more than last year turning up at hayling island! ------------- |
Posted By: ellistine
Date Posted: 15 Jul 13 at 8:27am
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98 boats for the Weymouth Regatta, including the original poster. ------------- |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 15 Jul 13 at 8:41am
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Yes the forecast would/should of been enough to put anyone off! Luckily it was Wrong again! Still way to light for me mind, but very sailable none the less ------------- |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 15 Jul 13 at 10:25am
| Sat and Sun forecast was rubbish light winds....Fortunately those that understand sea breezes turned up anyway. Rock solid F3-4 enjoyed by many both afternoons. |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 15 Jul 13 at 10:30am
how far inland does a sea breeze go? There was a 8kn north westerly at Datchet and any sea breeze would have killed that------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 15 Jul 13 at 10:35am
Not far but it does depend on local geography and heat variations. It doesn't always happen for us, if the forecast wind is lightish and off shore the sea breeze can snuff everything out. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 15 Jul 13 at 10:40am
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In the right situations sea breezes get a long way inland: I understand that once or twice a year sea breezes get twenty of thirty miles inland. Of course they don't get that far until very late in the day. Glider pilots are the people to ask about that stuff...
Datchet would be too far I suspect, but I'm sure I've heard they can get as far as Andover, but not until something like 9pm. Apparently a gentle offshore breeze actually speeds up sea breeze formation rather than vice versa. It seems that the system starts with the upper layers, and the return on shore curent at ground level doesn't come in until later. One windless day sitting in the dinghy park at Corus/Tata/British Steel I actually saw this happen. Early in the morning the smoke/steam from the steelworks was rising vertically, then later in the morning it started to stream seawards high up, and then finally the return came in at ground level and it started to stream the other way low down. |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 15 Jul 13 at 10:45am
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we thimk we get the sea breeze sometimes at Grafham. It is a long way inland, but the wind has nothing to impede it as it flows in over the Fens.
------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 15 Jul 13 at 10:47am
Same at Hunts, usually turns up between half 1 and half 2 if it is going to appear and the gradient wind must have an easterly element in it or it just cancels out and you end up with nothing. Although back on topic... all the forecasts were wrong for Saturday at Hunts. There was a very sailable wind indeed. Sunday however was 100% accurate....
------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 15 Jul 13 at 10:53am
If you are talking about another venue then i sorry if i have got the wrong end of the stick. But despite the temperatures there was certainly no sea breeze at Weymouth. ------------- |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 15 Jul 13 at 11:13am
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East Sussex. When we get them they are glorious. It seems that we don't get them as regularly as we used to but that may be a selective memory issue |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 15 Jul 13 at 11:14am
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 15 Jul 13 at 12:58pm
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Saturday the South westerly settled with us for about 1.5 hours which I think was the first time in this recent hot spell. I dont understand why we have not been getting them before is it that the sea temperature is two close to the lands for the themal effect to happen?
A frensham guy sailing last week said they get them sometimes about 4pm. when our end of the solent is normally 1 to 2pm with the odd late one early evening. ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 15 Jul 13 at 1:31pm
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Gordon, Nick Craig explained it to us this weekend. I was half cut at the time so forgive me if i have only got half the story.
But basically it was something to do with us sitting in a long term high pressure system, he basically said you can tell we wont get a Sea Breeze as it looked hazy. He was right, coudl be speaking a load of rubbish, and there was a load more to the story, whcih i have missed out (probably getting a beer) but it made perfect sense at the time. ------------- |
Posted By: marke
Date Posted: 15 Jul 13 at 1:50pm
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There are a boatload of academic papers on the intensity and inland penetration of sea breeze available on the web - Dalue and Pielke, 1989: "An Analytical Study of the Sea Breeze" ( http://dx.doi.org/10.1175/1520-0469%281989%29046%3C1815:AASOTS%3E2.0.CO;2" rel="nofollow - http://dx.doi.org/10.1175/1520-0469(1989)046<1815:AASOTS>2.0.CO;2 ) is a reasonable place to start. Abstract: In this paper we present theoretical results concerning the sea breeze intensity and its inland penetration as a function of latitude and friction. We produce solutions for the spatial structure of the streamfunction and momentum components and for their Line behavior in the case of a step function forcing of finite duration, and in the case of periodic forcing. Results show that the sea breeze initially has an aspect ratio equal to unity and that earth rotation and friction aged its intensity but they are unimportant in determining its early geometry. The sea breeze has a characteristic time scale which is a combination of the inertial period and the e-folding time due to friction. For a time larger than this characteristic time scale, the inland penetration of the sea breeze is confined by a Rossby deformation radius, which includes a frictional effect. In fact, friction and inertia reduce, not only the intensity, but also the horizontal scale of motion; at the equator the controlling parameter for the intensity and penetration of the sea breeze is friction. When the friction is small, periodicity in the forcing enhances the intensity and the horizontal scale; however when the friction efolding time is of the order of one day, the opposite is true. The existence of wave structure below 30 degrees of latitude, suggested by Rotunno, strongly depends on relative values of periodicity and friction, i.e., periodicity tends to make the governing partial differential equation for the streamfunction hyperbolic while friction tends to keep it eliptical; from the competition of these two contrasting effects waves may or may not result. So there - pick the bones out of that! Our sea breeze has been fairly predictable of late - with the light northerlies it seems to appear about 10:45 at about 5-8 knots - building late afternoon to about 10-15 knots. Not quite Lake Garda (i.e. we can't guarantee to have any water left when the 10-15 kicks in) - but very nice all the same. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 15 Jul 13 at 3:13pm
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Sea Breezes aint that complicated, cold(ish) night, land warms up, air above it rises, cool air above the sea moves into replace it bringing with it moisture which forms the characteristic fluffy clouds inland.
It is effected by the speed at which the land warms and the stuff that does that, (various crops affect thermal updrafts and add or reduce the effect, no, don't ask me which, wheat was always a good one)and the water temperature the warmer the water becomes the less likely the temperature imbalance, and the effect of a gradient wind either assisting or fighting the thermal trend. So if it hasn't been particularly cold the night before inland it ain't likely to happen as is the case at the moment. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: marke
Date Posted: 15 Jul 13 at 3:43pm
| Nah - you're probably right those atmospheric physicists don't have a clue |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 15 Jul 13 at 4:11pm
Theirs is after all only a theory and as you all know, I only deal in fact.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 15 Jul 13 at 5:29pm
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I bet beer this weekend there would be 10kn by mid-pm at the Warsash Blaze Open - they race nearer Hillhead than the Hamble ... and of course won the bet. Sea is warming up now being mid-july but the land was baking - differential was large enough to get things moving by lunchtime both days and all we had to deal with was a delay and then some really decent racing. Hiking hard 90% of the time ... It is too easy to be spooked by all these wretched 'forecasts' a few days in advance. I know a fair number of would be attendees who decided to stay at home etc .. they missed good racing in sun and wind. Generally all 'forecasts' can say is that the gradient wind will be 'such and such' .. well maybe ... and they generally don't take any account for sea breezes either. Mike L. |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 15 Jul 13 at 6:14pm
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I know full well there's a lurker out there who is an atmospheric physicist. When he returns from the frozen north I will ask suitable questions. As I understand it the sea breeze is affected by the strength and direction of the gradient wind, plus of course you need a sufficient difference between night day time temps, which you won't get in a period of prolonged high temps. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 15 Jul 13 at 6:55pm
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All you need is enough differential ... Anyway the real issue is that general 'forecasts' tend to ignore and simplify... they might well have to but that does not mean we have to accept them as 100% of the story. Mike L. |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 15 Jul 13 at 8:16pm
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Yeah but then that's the benefit of shore based clubs. I would very nearly always turn up just in case of a sea breeze. Inland though, usually the forecast may be right, nothing else to influence it. However might still well go for the social. ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 15 Jul 13 at 11:24pm
I'm a physicist, but not very atmospheric. You need more than a temperature differential, you need the gradient wind not to oppose the high level returning part of the seabreeze circulation. I think day and nght temps being similar could be an effect of no seabreeze as much as a cause? 'Bernot on Breezes' is a good book, I wish I could understand and remember it all..... |
Posted By: timeintheboat
Date Posted: 16 Jul 13 at 11:21am
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Well Windguru is painting a superb picture for this weekend - and I'm away at a family do :( ------------- Like some other things - sailing is more enjoyable when you do it with someone else |
Posted By: Fearful
Date Posted: 16 Jul 13 at 3:35pm
Pretty certain it is the temp differential between sea and land that leads to the sea breeze forming. i.e. land heats up in the sun, air rises, cool air from the sea moves in to replace it. At night the land cools and the top layer of the sea is now warmer so the opposite happens and you get a weak land breeze. A circular system is setup over the land/sea interface but it is not in 2D which makes it difficult to visualise. Chuck in the natural rotation of the earth and weak coriolis effect and in the northern hemisphere we see the sea breeze track right through the day. Often sea breeze will be on too small a scale to model accuratly with the larger scale models that Windguru uses. |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 16 Jul 13 at 5:41pm
You can always guarantee that it will if you can't go sailing ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 16 Jul 13 at 7:09pm
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Waiting at Valencia airport to go back to the office, where I had hope to sneak a couple of evening sails in at the pond as my wife and girls are staying out here for a few more days... Windguru says no.
I'm really to tempted to naff off this flight and head back to the marina. F3-4 everyday, 30 degrees + and no car, which means beers.... windsurfing and sailing. Effing windguru!!! ------------- |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 17 Jul 13 at 6:28pm
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I genuinely hope that anyone making the effort tonight at our club gets a good sail, but a combination of the guru and a web cam means I'm not there tonight, whereas as a kid in the early 90s we would have been out there regardless - especially inland without tidal considerations. ------------- |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 17 Jul 13 at 6:59pm
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there are a few out at Hunts, but not many. For the first time ever I have had to cancel Sailability buddy sailing and Drascombe sailing because of the heat. An unexpected shortage of buddies means too many vulnerable people will be waiting around in the full sun. Can't let that happen, but I am truly sad I have had to do this. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 17 Jul 13 at 7:31pm
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Got a good shoeing this afternoon down the lake, haven't been single handing for some time, all that two handing makes you soft, (plus a spectacularly damaging cricket game on sunday which took out both hamstrings) had lots of trouble even getting back in the boat, but hey, warm windy, what more can you ask for from the Sunny South East.
The Ship Race this weekend will be interesting, with me crewless again and by the looks of it a three mile beat up to Sandgate from Hythe. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 18 Jul 13 at 4:37pm
| Windguru is saying quite clearly that I should go sailing this evening, my armpits agree........ |