If its any help i would work off the principle that less is more.  Why not look at 3 or 4 great events a year rather than a packed calender (he says without even looking at your '13 calender)

 

Also whats wrong with using events like POSH as a class open? 

it woukd be a shame as boats are cheap racing them is cheap and the circuit was or is all pretty central so its a great way of getting decent fast and challenging racing at very low cost

I suspect that's a load of tosh that he could sail it, perhaps he just had his arse handed to someone who worked a nine to five job and spent a few sails getting used to it so to preserve his image he blamed his tools.

Its not a difficult boat to master at all.  Take away the fully battened main and it wouldn't be anywhere as exciting to sail.

Why does everything have to be dumbed down so any muppet can jump on and go?  

It is often said that there are too many classes in the UK and we should concentrate on a core group.  However this will stagnate and we will all be sailing Solos, Lasers, Contenders etc for ever.

What the RS600 has done is wake up some of the older classes to modernise their rigs / sails / equipment. It has also led to the development of trapeze singlehanders with kites and has as such moved the sailing world on. Which in turn has led to non trapeze kiting singlehanders.

Unfortunately it looks like very few people are buying new boats in the RS600 and that is not a good thing. The 600 has become a cheap boat bought by students who want something more than a Laser and always seem to use it as a stepping stone to something else. They do not have the money to do an open circuit or nationals or to buy new boats.

So I think it is time up for the 600 as a boat with an organised class and all that goes with it. 

But all those windward capsizes on a shifty inland lake because you don't get that much TOW... n'ah, probably should have got the Contender instead if I wanted longevity.  At the time £2k bought a lot of 600 (that was when the existing fleet were selling up to go into the 700), whereas £4k bought a competitive, but tatty Contender.... I had a wedding, new mortgage, two cars on HP....  I went cheap and fun, pretty much what most of todays 600 sailors do.

As for events- I never did them, never felt I was at the level to go to one.  Putting in bluntly, if someone turned up and sailed a laser at the opens I'd done as badly as I was sailing the 600, then they'd have not been welcome back.  There's a basic level of skill we pressume an open meeting standard sailor to be at.... 'might make 65% of their tacks without going into irons' is simply not it.  

In truth would I have any worse than some at those events?  Probably not, but the class always has had an issue with perception about how hard they are to sail, and telling competant dinghy sailors 'it'll take you two seasons to master it' is, as Graeme says, only going to appeal to minority of us who work for a living.  Eventually we find something else- a stepping stone - hopefully to something easier to sail or ideally, something to sail with someone else.

Secondly I hadn't long since stopped uni team racing where equipment is pooled, damage happens, but utter incompetence  by some muppet with another uni's kit is not welcome and ruins the event for everyone.  You know what you're used to when it comes to standards, and I certainly presumed I wasn't good enough to go to 600 event.

This may well be a misrepresentation, I don't know... I never cared to ask anyone at the time, but the fact that guys in their late teens and early twenties are still not going, well I'd imagine it's still a factor- along with time and money.

It is not that hard to sail, but by its nature people want to sail it in quite demanding conditions, which reveals its flaws and limitations.

It is a very unforgiving boat in some circumstances, if you don't have the technique it will go into irons.

Like a lot of people, I owned one for a couple of seasons, tried to fit it in around other sailing commitments and only got so far up the learning curve.

I don't regret buying it, neither do I regret selling it.

If I want a fast singlehander again, I'll get either a contender or an MPS.

The MPS is a lot more affordable now secondhand than it was at the time, and a boat that delivers the fun at a lower wind range would be an advantage.

The 6 also suffers in PY racing from excelling at beam reaches, but being (relatively) dull on a run in moderate wind, so the results are predictable from the course. AN MPS or RS100 is better suited to PY racing against other asy boats, which is what fills the fast PY category mostly.

 

The other thing that really narked me was the association putting all the events simultaneous with RS400 events, which doesn't help you get value from the multi-class CA.

Also some niggles with the class rules, eg, not allowing a sensible 4x2x2 kicker instead of 2x2x2x2, so if the boat is not perfectly set up, the kicker runs out of range. It turned out that some of the top people were racing with out of class boats due to this.

I don't think the CA does it any favours.

The FF Fiasco did it no favours either, took out a few good (and wealthy) key people.

 

I suspect it's headed for the 'fringe' category.

Still a good boat to own for a bit, learn steering from the wire and a few survival skills before moving on.

Can't see anyone buying a new one though.

Hi Graeme,

With all due respect to you, personally, I think that you are out of order here, with your comments about Roger.

Did you see him sail the boat?  How many times did he sail one?  How long did he sail one for?

Roger was a top dinghy racer in several classes and, as you have said, an olympic campaigner.  He was also a dinghy sail maker with Neil Thornton at Number One Sails and then with his own sail loft of Tushingham Sails (with the' Jolly Roger' flag insignia) a long time before he got into windsurfing and making windsurf sails.

I think that I am right in saying that in 1993, when Racing Sailboats introduced the first RS boats, the RS 400 and RS 600, for a very short time Roger was an RS agent for RS/LDC in the north of England. I can remember him having two 400's for demonstration purposes, at my own club.  I am absolutely certain that, given time in the boat, Roger would have been just as successful in it as he was in other dinghy classes.  Just a few years ago, he bought himself a Solo which he sails at Salcombe and he also sailed in the nationals, with impressive results in his first season.

Roger is a nice bloke and a very quiet man.  I doubt that he would be the type of person to publicly defend himself, or comment about his own sailing abilities, on this forum, not that he has to, as his sailing record in multiple classes (and windsurfing) over the past forty years speaks for itself.

Just my opinion that's all.

Ian   (Yorkshire Dales S.C.)

i think that is a ridiculous comment ! look at the end of the day i sailing is a progressing thing which is why we start in oppys go on to toppers then lasers then 420 then 470 then 49ers then fireballs this list goes on sailing is surly a progression thing !! which is why we do it if it was easy wheres the challenge  
Anyway, I agree with maybe having less events that are better attended. I don't see anything wrong with tagging along with other events, are there any other RS classes you can share with? Didn't the 600s always go round with the 300's?
[/QUOTE

Bit of advice, don't fall into that trap mate, been there, done that... you'll have nowhere to go once you out grow that Musto Skiff, or worse, life takes a turn in a different direction where sailing commitment and TOW take a back burner.   

 

By the time you've insured it, bought a few bits of pro-grip and repaired the sail, £500 won't go far.

Most people will be spending £200 ? on insurance, yet they don't find £30 to do a one-day open?

Is it really about the cost? I suspect not.

 

Message to people half my age:

You do not need another iphone or the latest video game or another round of overpriced drinks somewhere trendy.

You need to get out in the real world with some out of control machinery, and it's better to do that with an RS600 than a Kawasaki 600...

nail and head springs to mind there are plenty of boats out there trust me i know sat here for 2 plus days emailing the list that the association has and there are loads of enthusiasm people saying the will race and they want training days but when its put on no one turns up !! take this for a example 2 years ago we did a training day at oxford 14 people said they where coming 6 prepaid ect only 4 turned up and only 2 of them where the ones who prepaid 

 the only comment i kept hearing is i will race but only when my skill level is up to racing 

so in reality there are loads practicing but none going to events 

Is that sufficient to cover the however many millions of liability cover you need to go racing?

 

I'm not convinced the sail is the real issue.

There is something about the hull shape that really does not want you to tack in certain circumstances.

I think it's to do with having to move back o get around the sheet bridle, and a lack of buoyancy in the back, coupled with a dagger board that might not be in the ideal place.

I don't know enough about hydrodynamics to get the details, but that hull does not want to play in the op end of F4 on choppy water, particularly if you are not confident to throw it around.

I'm sure the rig comes into it (and controls that run out of travel), but it's the way it works with the hull.

Maybe that is the price of speed, but for a boat that set a trend, it is not notable for people copying the shape is it?

no grf i just think your a prat you haven't pointed out a dying class at all infact i posted it. and it wasn't to point out that the class was dying it was to try and get people who own a 600 to contact the asscation on there thoughts 

the reason you can jump on windersurfer is because you been sailing them for a while i guess ?which is my point 

and the sail will never change 1 because if they did that then no one would buy a old secondhand boat because they would have to go and buy a 800 pound sail 2 the whole reason the 600 is a 600 is because the main makes it take the fully battern main away what would they replace it with a square top so it can de power easily ? well whats the point when you can half the size of the rig? change the main to a newer cloth to make it last longer? no because a sail for a 600 last bloody years and i mean  years !

and do you not think hundreds of people look at your posts and not only roll there eyes in disbelieve of your crap but properly  mutter some words to them selfs in like what a ........... so there you go grf my thoughts stick to you go slows because what you are saying is you nether want to put the time into learning new skills or you think everyone should just be able to jump into a boat a be fast right away 

old dog and new tricks springs to mind 

sorry 

Just think if your life had turned out better by fate and you'd discovered dinghy sailing as a youth rather than messing about on beach toys you'd have developed the skills and mastered craft such as the 600 and would be happy now ...

I could just see you on a windsurfing forum having decided to have a go in your dotage bitching about who difficult a windsurfer is, board too small, rig keeps falling in the water etc ...

Dinghy sailing has been around 100s of years and is still fine; pick a type of craft that suits. There is a huge range. If some of them are beyond your skill level leave them to the guys (and girls) with the better motor skills and pick one of the more docile classes that suit your ability.

As for the 600, it is end of life just like the ISO, Vortex, EPS, Buzz, Boss etc etc ... it happens.

no grf if you bothered to read my very first post the one at the beginning you know number 1 the very  first post at the top of the page on page 1 and took time to read it oh wait no you dont wanna put time in to things 

it clearly says i once had a 600 for 600 years and i have defected to a musto 

 thats the impression i have gotten 

Indeed

iGRF,

Why do you think everyone is like you?

Some may want equipment that is manageable but others want stuff that is a challenge in the f3s we typically get. If that means they capsize in f4+ so what? It's all part of the fun. 

I like the slow tactical racing others like foiling moths that crash. 

Great, we have choice. Just like in most other sports. 

Seems your beef is that you think you have the ability to sail the high performance toys but don't have the skills then start running down the equipment. 

I think the phrase a bad work man blames his tools fits here. 

Yeah ... and I expect they sold lots of the new one as a result 

but let's be honest- Graeme is only highlighting what RS already know.  It's hardly sl*gging the product off, when RS themselves took what they knew from developing the 600 and 800 and then made the 700- Paul Bayliss even piloted the converted 600 with the kite, it just didn't work and was out-innovated by the MPS.  So RS responded with a me too product with a lower PY and accessibility claims- having learned from the 600 feedback.  

Faster and Easier... sounds right up the iGRF school of thought to me, even if execution may well have made it too clunky and cumbersome compared to the refined ship the MPS is.  

Maybe the missing thought here is that it's the 700 that needs the overhaul- some large wings with outriggers, a simplied gennaker hoist.... make a boat that sits somewhere between the MPS and the WETA, not unlike the rogue skiff / cherub hybrid concept but with a reasonable water line length and enough volume and some big ghey stabilisers.  At least it would be boat that would actually go to windward better than the RS100 without trashing yourself....

In Grumpf's commercial model this swan song thread for the RS600 is a good thing, even if in his limited experience the technological leap didn't deliver.... however check the changes with the 700- soft sails, chines, pump systems, extendable racks, 'sit down' safety tacks as SOP, longer LWL, harken as effectively standard, patched kites, carbon wiggler..... even when I bought my 600 8 years ago, I knew the 700 was reportedly 'easier to sail', I just couldn't afford one at the time, and in truth, would have been nervous of the kite.

The fact that the 600 survives in 'after-market limbo' is perhaps an accolade that RS have towards its legacy products- and the cottage market place that dinghy racing is.  

They didn't 'dump' the boat and remove their involvement from the class association, the rules management, the event circuit and the supply of parts; they've let 'nature take its course', and it finally has... dead as a dodo.  Time called not by the manufacturer, but by the owners themselves.  That's a good innings- far more respectful than the L4k or the Topper derivatives of sh*te from the 90's.   

So let's love it for what it gave us, encourage others who still find fun from the remnants, but let's not re-write history or assume it still has much relevance as a 'proper active class'- my boat was called 'Pig' for a reason.  It had the stable manners of a rutting stag.  It taught me a lot, but I'd never buy another, nor recommend one to a friend.

As for the windsurfing jibes... grow up fellas, Graeme has been on a journey, his experiences and opinions are as valid here as anyone else's, probably more so than some because at least he is the demographic most sailing clubs are trying to attract- physically active adults without dependents.  50 is the new 30, 70 is the new 50... and if anyone wants to get ageist, come borrow my Solo and get your arse handed to you by our 'old boys'.  More sailing talent in that fleet at just one club than I've seen on some circuits for newer boats.  Anyway, perhaps if some of you actually windsurfed and sailed dinghies you could better understand where he comes from, and how the two sports are so different, yet share so much too.  

Windsurfing isn't dying, it's just returning to a niche sport after some very successful business people did what dinghy sailing has never, and is likely never to achieve- taking it mainstream and making a brand that people aspire to.  

Is there the desire for any windsurfing company to do that again?  Oh yes... they've just moved on to more portable formats- kiting , which goes with the travelling youth and singles/dinky market and Stand Up Paddleboard- which globally is tapping into female fitness market in a MASSIVE way, from the Netherlands to the Maldives.

Friday sermon over, but at least I got to post a picture of some girls in bikinis.

you are of course entitled to ignore anything I've posted over the years, however since leaving the Laser fleet some ten years ago, I've seen the steady churn of people coming through our handicap fleet with 600s, 700s, Musto Skiffs and to a lesser extent, contenders who go from using them intensely, then periodically and ultimately very rarely as they struggle week in week out find conditions don't keep them on the learning curve.  They now either sail something else, or rarely sail... picking and choosing days based on the narrow wind range of what they are comfortable with and what they can be arsed to sail in.

I've always said it's not the 5 days in the week that stop you progressing in these types of boats, it's the weekends away at in-laws, on holiday, taking the kids to parties, attending weddings and stag dos, work functions that run over and or simply when its blowing its tits off or there's nowt but a gnats fart of wind and a Supernova embarrasses you around the course.   So I'd say although we're approaching it on different roads, we're hitting the same destination- time on the water and commitment.  You either have access to that, or you don't.  Simples.

I lost my mojo with the MPS in a six week hiatus over the early winter... the only sailable days coinciding with prenatal scans and trips to John Lewis baby department.  What took a year to learn was lost in less than 2 months.... it's hardly a unique experience judging from the numbers of ex-HP boat sailors who jumped as soon as there was a viable alternative in the RS100.

Getting a sailing life balance with everything else requires the correct choice of boat.... and for some people that's not a HP singlehanded trap boat- no matter what preconceived ideas about where they want to be on this mythical path of enlightenment that sees you start in a coffin (oppy / cadet) and end in one (Solo/Miracle).

I was concerned by the comments from BristolSkiff - by making the technical boat handling of craft like the MPS, Moth etc the pinnacle of attainment, he could be missing something.  I speak with some expereince.  The guys I sailed Lasers against 10 years ago (and was competitive against) who are still in them now, are much further forward in the fleet, still racing very closely.  I admire that now more than I might have then.   But owning a cool boat is not all the sport has to offer... in fact getting owned by a cool boat is pretty damn soul destroying.  Having the support of a proper fleet at Datchet is good though- I do acknowledge that.   However, if you've got a rigid mentality that you won't step back up the PN numbers on your next boat purchase, whatever the reason, well you could be in for disappointment.  

Anyway off topic enough- get a 600 if you want one.  Sell it once you realise there's something better... which there is in every direction.  More performance- moth/MPS; Better Racing - Laser/Phant/Solo.  Something new- get a kite, 100/D1... a better example with a decent circuit... get a Contender.

answer is nope 

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again what else could you want 

ah those where the glory days now i am holding the rear of the fleet up in a musto funny thing is thats exactly what happened in the 600 my first year of racing always in last odd place and then the last 2 years of it always in the top 3

New RS400 mainsails that means ...

well all three to start with...

one the reasons you cite for leaving was 'resale value', how is bad depreciation good for those on a tight budget?

compared to what?  It's not like you can pick parts up from anywhere and get them fabricated by a mate with a lathe... not to stay class legal anyway.

is it?  Yes I believe so, but isn't the point of this thread that the class association can no longer sustain it.

You've sold yours as it no longer suits you.  Why pimp the class now?  Surely the time for that was when you were chairman?  

It's dying with dignity, not euthanised by the builder like other 90's SMODS,  but because friends and loved ones can no longer afford to keep it on life support.  Time to let her go with grace and love... for all her faults and all her beauty. RIP dear 600.

the Laser, 420, 29er, Royal Navy Bosun, a Kitesurf board, the front end of a Fireball, a time trial bike, a Solo...... the Xenon you've just completed your level 2 on, but as former skilled paraglider you're pretty feckin' wind aware and had that RYA sh*t nailed in a day- even the instructor said you were wasting your time and let you 'go play' on his Blaze during the lunch break.

.... why the need for linear progression, you're 30, far too old to worry about the colours on your squad jacket now mate. 

Besides it's not going anywhere- that's the point, but ultimately those boats will be beyond economic repair, then they'll drop off one by one... when was the last time you saw an ISO racing? Or a Laser 5k?

The Contender Class Associations are run on a purely amatuer basis all over the world and internationally. The only people that get paid are the measurers and that is on a per boat / per sail / per event basis. As long as the class can get volunteers to maintain this then the class will remain successful. There are currently over 170 boats entered for their Worlds this year. That is one big event to organise in someones spare time.

The issue here with the 600s is that the professionally run CA no longer wants to do the job as it is not viable. So the 600s need to find some volunteers quickly to get itself organised to run events. If it manages this then they will survive.

I don't think fashion has changed that much... 

Just like kids today- when I was sailing as a kid I sailed organised class boats in a structured manner- both at club and circuit/national level.  

Just like twenty-somethings today- I sailed a mix of random boats, some cheaper, some more expensive.  Nearly all of them more performance orientated than my locale would really favour.  Just like 20's sailors today I noticed a lot of my friends walking out of the sport, and at the time, I didn't know they would return.  They'd had enough of the structured nature of the sport, and found other pastimes that were less costly and could tolerate infrequent participation better.  That's normal... and too much time wasted fretting over the 'lost youth' who don't want to turn out on Sunday at 10:30 to sail a boat they perceive to be 'sh*t'.

Now I'm in my 30s, I'm joined by a number of 'early returners' who are all buying 'easy to sail, hard to sail well' boats (God I hate that phrase, but its a mantra omnipresent in our sport, so why deny it)  We will be joined by hopefully more new to the sport regulars and adult returners over the next couple of decades.  

Some of us will travel to events to sail boats they prefer to own, others will stay local and sail something like a Laser, Solo, RS400, Merlin or Phantom which gets them around a course.

Then the lucky ones will retire.... that's when the fun finn really begins 

have you searched in the Netherlands?

http://uk.rs700.org/index.asp?Fleet=RS700&selection=Boat%20Register&subsel=950" rel="nofollow - http://uk.rs700.org/index.asp?Fleet=RS700&selection=Boat%20Register&subsel=950

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Ah ... I think I had missed that point.

The the RS association kicking the 600 out?

Edit: Are you sure? This seems to be still in place  http://uk.rs600.org/" rel="nofollow - http://uk.rs600.org/

 i read it more that the 600 sailors were committing Hari Kari with the association, rather than being put on the naughty step.

Now I'm confused??? Aren't all RS classes covered by the umbrella association?

I was being facetious... and making the point that why would the ex chairman who's sailing in the natural evolutionary competitor care too much anymore to bring this up in public?  There's enough people commenting here who've owned one and f*cked it off for whatever reason.  We may look back with vary degrees of fondness and rose tint, but it seems like some us want to cry over split milk somewhat?

I made the point later... of course the boats are still around, and as no one is going to the events anyway, nothing really changes - it's a beater for students and second boats.  There's nothing wrong with that... more bang for your buck than a tatty Laser and a lot cheaper than a equivalent age Blaze which is still going strong.  But without new boat sales the class will ultimately die and it's perfectly understandable if RS don't rush to save it with a lost leader, new boat offer when they've got better, more successful and relevant products to focus on.

And what's a 'class' anyway... if the RS CA can no longer justify running the events I'd say the class is dead, you're just a group of individuals who happen to own the same boats.... best thing you could do is use the non-class specific event infrastructure around the UK like POSH / Lord B etc to maintain some semblance of 'class racing' for the remainder of this twilight period.  But one day there really will be no more serviceable boats left- we can says it 'properly dead' then if it makes it less emotional for you if you like?

they could stop backing it and running events unless they get more of a turn out 

thought i would repost my first post to keep it from wondering to much 

I think that is the one line that I read in a way that the CA were considering dropping the 600. I would imagine dropping means not organising any events or updating the web page unless some sailors get a lot more active.

"Donkey work" is a derogatory phrase IMO so should only be used to describe sections of ones own efforts if you so wished ... never to describe the efforts of others.

Bristolskiff was class rep and attended all the meetings he could, he was RS fleet rep of the year 2 years ago, we had lots of dialogue the whole time and a very active network at the time.

Current RS 600 Fleet secretary and class captain are also now both at the same same club and friends so i suspect they also meet often too.

Its not for want of trying.

That is, people are being more careful with money and with the high cost of fuel less people are going to do the open meeting circuit due to cost.

There also seems to be a social shift in that people seem to have less time or their partners are more demanding on their time and so the prospect of clearing off to some open all weekend is diminishing.

That combined with all the other leisure options people have now ...

 

All classes may be seeing this to some extent, but not equally.

Some classes are doing a lot better in terms of taking a share of the smaller market.

People are still buying boats, both new and used, but those boats are Lasers, D-ones, RS100's etc.

 

If a shortage of cash was driving the situation, a class that offers so much value for money would be a lot more active.

 

I suspect some 600's are happily owned by peoople who enjoy owning them, happy to do their own thing PY racing. The fact that these people don't seek class racing is not a problem, any more than it's a problem that I don't race my Ducati.

But are there  an increasing number of 600's sat idle/up for sale?

I know a few have been scrapped for spares, but the majority must still be out there?

Who owns them and what are their plans?

Do people keep hold of them, thinking they'll get back into it next year (etc)?

Do they think 'I would flog it, but when it's only worth 1500 quid, I may as well leave it in the garden'?

The other thing is are more days getting cancelled due to extreme weather and is the internet forecast putting people off?

I used to spend far too much time obsessing over the forecast to the point i would be put off going if the forecast wasn't right, which if i did go would then leave me expecting the worse - wrong attitude.  

I now only give a cursory glance to make sure i take right kit, but beyond that, its a free time weekend to go and enjoy yourself; so go and do that.  Afterall - its only a forecast so more that 24hrs in advance its just a best guess.