Race Management: Safety cover

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Safety cover

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Race Management
Forum Discription: For race officers and competiors to discuss the topic
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10844
Printed Date: 27 Jun 25 at 8:35am
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Topic: Safety cover

Posted By: fudheid
Subject: Safety cover
Date Posted: 23 Apr 13 at 7:36pm

Hi folks,

Does our sailing club need to provide rescue/safety cover when club racing? We have a couple of rather shiny RIBS which take alot of uptake.
Is there a legal necessity to provide it . We have the usual 'all sailors and boats launch at their own risk' etc..

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Cheers you

only me from over the sea......

Replies:

Posted By: RichTea
Date Posted: 23 Apr 13 at 8:31pm

Inland or sea?

A boat should be available on standby with people ready to helm if needed. There is a ratio that if you are an rya club you need to adhere to.

For the formal answer, the RYA is where you want to go.

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RS200

Posted By: Kev M
Date Posted: 23 Apr 13 at 10:48pm

There is some RYA rule about any more than six boats in a race and you need to have safety cover I think.

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Successfully confusing ambition with ability since 1980.

Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 24 Apr 13 at 12:01am

In view of the sheer varietsy of circumstances that can arise, the RYA seems reluctant to set any definite ratios of safety boats to competitors.

Thus the RYA Race Management Guide at http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/Racing/RacingInformation/RaceOfficials/Resource%20Centre/Best%20Practice%20Guidelines%20Policies/Race%20Management%20Guide.pdf - http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/Racing/RacingInformation/RaceOfficials/Resource%20Centre/Best%20Practice%20Guidelines%20Policies/Race%20Management%20Guide.pdf

states:

Patrol Boats

The number of patrol boats at an event depends on the competition level, age, ability and number of

competitors, anticipated conditions, etc. There is no recommended ratio as there are too many

variables to consider - so it's a matter of common sense and judgement. The patrol boats should be

of a design and size appropriate to the task -RIBs are commonly used

If they were prescriptive, of course, there would be a danger that a club might be blamed for not following the fixed guidelines even when they weren't appropriate to their situation.

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http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class

Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 24 Apr 13 at 7:52am

Thanks, as a sea club we spend a significant amount of money on Ribs for safety. We generally have two on the water at any one time (So two crews to find as well).
In the document it states:

SAFETY

Whilst the boats are entirely responsible for their own safety (RRS 1, RRS 4 and standard safety

SIs) the RO has ultimate responsibility whilst on the water for the duty of care held by the Organising Authority.
as the club is affliated to the national body then when racing we are liable - hence the public liability insurance....

hmmm more thinking...

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Cheers you

only me from over the sea......

Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 24 Apr 13 at 9:04am

We're on the sea. If racing we have to put at least 1 rib out to lay the marks......I'm assuming you have fixed marks? It must save a lot of time.

During free sailing, if there are only a handful of people out, we have a small rib on standby on the beach.

Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 24 Apr 13 at 10:18am

We have one boat out on the sea to lay the course and oversee the sailing. This can be for up to 40 boats.

The second RIB is on the beach ready to go. When it is needed it is launched by whoever is around. Generally this happens when the wind picks up and people start to retire due to the wind strength. Or they have broken something.

In most cases the safety cover only provides a watching brief and do not actually do anything as most people self rescue. So you can have quite a high ratio of sailing boats to safety boats.

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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764

Posted By: fudheid
Date Posted: 24 Apr 13 at 10:41am

yep fixed marks - although they have gone missing this winter....Does mean quick to set courses although there not always great for the wind angle. We have a river start and then out to sea quite so we are in large area and some times vision is reduced from the crows nest at the club.
the thoughts were:-

back in the day we had no safety cover, alot more boats racing, why can't we just organise a flash race on a weekend if the weather is nice and facebook/internet have got a few like-minded people down for a blast. We need to inform the sailing committee and the rescue officer and by the time the general committee get involved it is binned!
The SI's stated that every club boat must carry a paddle and anchor and flares even with 4 & 5000 sailing the committee boat could be 15mins away from rescue Self sufficiency was key.

Now we seem to spend our weekends trying to raise money for the upkeep of said safety boats and new engines/ tubes etc...

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Cheers you

only me from over the sea......

Posted By: Buzz
Date Posted: 24 Apr 13 at 2:18pm

We sail on the sea as well and lay a triangular and windware leeward course. We have either two or three ribs out plus a shore based beach master when we run racing. We also have a named race officer and safety boat coordinator.

Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 24 Apr 13 at 2:25pm

I think the OP is asking what is the legal minimum, not what we currently do vs our ideal.

As I understand it, there is no legal requirement to have rescue cover for a group of guys out sailing and racing each other. I've certainly been in yacht races with zero rescue cover, the start boat goes on a jolly for the duration of the race.

However you would need to check various frameworks a club may have signed up to- for example:

- is the club formally established with a charity/HMRC Ltd status?

- what criteria does the RYA require for their registered clubs?

- what disclaimers are in place?

- what age are the participants and is the RO in 'loco parentis' for under 18s

- what clauses exist within the club's various insurance policies?

- does the club have a written code or rule on this, and by ignoring it, you have defrauded the paying member?

lots of questions... probably best cover your arse and run the Ribs.

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Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 24 Apr 13 at 2:45pm

Originally posted by Buzz

We sail on the sea as well and lay a triangular and windware leeward course. We have either two or three ribs out plus a shore based beach master when we run racing. We also have a named race officer and safety boat coordinator.

Wow thats a lot of people, how many boats do you have out? And is this every weekend or just for major events?

We run that structure for open meetings with no club racing.

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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764

Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 24 Apr 13 at 3:58pm

Buzzes duty crew sounds like the sort of level we have at WSC - two RIB's for summer club racing, plus RO, ARO, CDO (= "clubhouse master"), and two on duty in the galley. It is a lot, but the river twists about so two RIB's at least are needed to keep competitors in sight.

That contrasts strongly with my previous inland club where just two men performed committee boat RO & ARO, then safety boat duties, before rushing in after racing to open the bar (food crisps or nuts only, or bring your own!). Max 15 boats, mind, c.f. WSC's maybe 30-odd

What duty crew do you use Contender443? You're at sea, I think?

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http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class

Posted By: Buzz
Date Posted: 25 Apr 13 at 11:46am

We usually have about 20 - 30 dinghies out but it depends on the weather.

We run two or three ribs for racing on both Wednesday evenings and Sunday afternoons depending on conditions and availability of the ribs. For Open meetings and major events we increase the number of ribs to 1 rib per 10 dinghies so for a 100 boat Nationals we would have 10 Ribs plus a mark layer as well.

Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 25 Apr 13 at 1:35pm

We run with RO, ARO, 1 x RIB with 2 crew and 2 in the canteen most Sundays. On Wednesday there is no one in the canteen. The bar is run by a non-sailing bar manager every week with the help of 2 or 3 other regular bar staff.

Interesting needing 10 x RIBs for a 100 boat nationals. That would be a lot for an adult event sucjh as Lasers as all of those people can self rescue so you could probably get away with 2 or 3. Different matter if it was Oppies or Teras.

I went to a couple of Contender World/ European championships where they had 2 or 3 safety boats for 100+ boats in the fleets.

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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764

Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 25 Apr 13 at 3:18pm

I think we had 10 RIBS when we ran Laser Opens, with up to around 150 boats - several borrowed with crews from local clubs.

For normal club sailing we have an RO and assistant onshore and one boat on the water with 2 crew, plus a spare small RIB at the top of the beach as backup. That's for any number of boats, up to about 35 max in practice.

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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Ex Laser 189635
DY 59

Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 26 Apr 13 at 6:07pm

Originally posted by fudheid

Hi folks,

Is there a legal necessity to provide it .

Not in so many words. However https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_of_care

The leading judicial test for a duty of care in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom - United Kingdom was found in the judgments of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caparo_Industries_plc_v_Dickman - Caparo Industries plc v Dickman ,^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_of_care#cite_note-2 - [2]} in which the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Lords - House of Lords set out the following three-part test:

Harm must be a "reasonably foreseeable" result of the defendant's conduct;
A relationship of "proximity" between the defendant and the claimant;
It must be "fair, just and reasonable" to impose liability.

If you are running racing for club members there's "proximity". People do come to grief dinghy racing - not often but sometimes. So "reasonably foreseeable". It's standard practice to provide safety cover so there's your "fair, just and reasonable" to impose liability. Leave your RIBS on the beach and I'd say you are taking your chances.

Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 27 Apr 13 at 4:05pm

I would have thought you only have a duty of care to your employees. You can't ask them to do anything dangerous without taking mitigating actions and minimising the risk as much as possible. Of course all jobs come with some element of risk but the employee has the choice to take that job on.

As far as someone taking part in an amateur sporting event that must be very difficult. If you had to do this there wouldn't be many sporting events happening. How on earth could you make downhill skiing or mountain biking safe?

I guess what I am saying is please don't confuse duty of care in an amateur sporting environment with a professional working environment.

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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764

Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 29 Apr 13 at 1:17pm

I'm not averse to looking after myself and taking responsibility, but I don't think I'd look to join a dinghy club that did not provide basic RIB cover. I certainly wouldn't be recommending it to parents.