National Handicap For Cruisers (NHC)
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Keelboat classes
Forum Name: Keelboat news and development
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URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10755
Printed Date: 25 Jun 25 at 11:06pm
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Topic: National Handicap For Cruisers (NHC)
Posted By: sailorman
Subject: National Handicap For Cruisers (NHC)
Date Posted: 07 Mar 13 at 8:12pm
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Evening, On 1st March the RYA launched the National Handicap for Cruisers. As a Cruiser Captain for a keen cruiser racing club I was enthusiastic about the launch of this new handicap system and the hope of something more workable for cruisers than the PY system. In principle the system seems good but my enthusiasm has rapidly decreased when examining the list of base numbers. According to the base numbers a Nicholson 32 is faster than a Bolero Quarter Tonner as is an Albin Vega???? additionally a Jeaneau rush which is based on a competitive 1/2 Tonner is only 2 minutes than a Twister. and so the discrepancies go on. I appreciate the system is designed to be performance based and TCC's should adjust as a series progresses but surely the base numbers should correlate with the comparative performance of each boat??? Does anyone know how the RYA have come up with the Base number list, as it would appear that the ones that are way out are for boats who are unlikely to have been rated under IRC. If the Base numbers don't make sense then unfortunately the NHC is dead before it starts and we will have to go back to the less than adequate PY system
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Replies:
Posted By: farc anal
Date Posted: 12 Mar 13 at 4:36pm
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my sentiments too , a bit of proof reading and adjustment of base figures (as they dont really matter ) would not go adrift , my out and out cruiser is supposed to be faster than most of the J fleet !!!!. although they will iron out , you cant get over the fact that you will be underachieving from the start , not much of a grabber , and otherwise what would seem an excellent idea
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Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 12 Mar 13 at 6:08pm
| I beta tested the sailwave version for NCH and was surprised to find how it worked. The process of calculating the adjustment is fine as is the software but I don't like the idea of starting from a list that was in essence the reason for developing the system in the first place. The RYA have stated that if your boat or config is not in the list they will be happy to calc a start point for you. They are tight-lipped about it but I suspect they are going to generate starting numbers along the lines of a simple measurement system such as Byron. This then begs the question that if you want a simple measurement system without running to IRC, then why not use Byron, as is the current standard in the Bristol Channel clubs. The NCH doesn't allow two Impalas for instance to be held to the same rating even if they measure as such. It's pure personal handicap folks. Having evaluated Byron, PYS (the online py scheme primarily for dinghies) and now NCH, my preference is go to Byron for a measurement rating then use the existing PYS scheme to annually review and adjust your numbers for local sailing. The NCH achieves nothing over this approach other than the numbers looking like IRC numbers and will only lead to confusion. |
Posted By: MerlinMags
Date Posted: 12 Mar 13 at 6:42pm
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There was a press release from the RYA today, which might help with your concerns? http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/168363/National-Handicapping-scheme-for-Cruisers-update - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/168363/National-Handicapping-scheme-for-Cruisers-update
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Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 12 Mar 13 at 9:45pm
| Interesting post mags, but doesn't offer up anything new. They are basing the base numbers on a basic measurement system such as Byron, then asking us to then make personal adjustments via scoring systems such as sailwave. |
Posted By: Helmit
Date Posted: 15 Mar 13 at 2:27pm
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NATION HANDICAP FOR CRUISERS The wider perspective THE RYA CHARTER Fundamentals “A club or race organisation that does not adhere to the Rules of the NHC brings the scheme into disrepute.” This suggests that an organisation accepts the rules in full or not at all. Base numbers These are wrong. Like many observers we see a Beneteau 25.7 nearly level rating with the new Beneteau first 30. A Beneteau 21.7 now gives time to a Sonata and level rates with a Jenneau Sunfast 26. If we are experiencing issues with the base numbers then all the clubs must be. It is not good enough to say that it will sort itself out as particular race type always reverts back to the base number. Club Series The committee can see that in a series of races the scheme in its pure form works and that after a season the CN numbers will have for most boats moved well away from their original base number. It does not however allow for the boat that sails short handed and then when crew is available decides to fly a kite. It assumes that the boat is sailed in a similar manner manner throughout the series. Single races Which handicap do we use for a single race like a three hour race or a pursuit race? We cannot use the Club series handicap as it is. 1 Outside the provisions of the Rules and Guidance of the NHC 2 Whether deliberately or not if the club series number was used boats may hold back in a series in order to obtain a good handicap for a particular higher profile race. As a single race we are obliged to go back to base numbers which are clearly wrong for most boats as was identified in earlier. Joint races What handicap does a boat bring to a joint race between clubs? By definition we go back to the base numbers which we know are wrong. These races are also capped by ten percent and therefore those boats that have vastly favourable numbers will win by default. We cannot let them bring their handicap with them and we cannot give them an average from our fleet as they may be a scratch boat and would clearly give them an advantage. For instance we have two scratch beneteau’s. One that races with cruisers and the other with racing boats. Their numbers vary hugely because of the fleet they are racing with. Why would the more handicapped boat bother to race in a joint race when they know that the handicap alone will mean that they cannot compete? Promote sailing It may do the opposite. Boats who were going to travel to an event like “Round the Island “ will be disincentived as they have to use a base number provided by some strange measurement which in its current form does not allow for kites, props or even whether the designer built it for cruising or racing. I would hope that the RYA resolve these issues before they let loose a system which could turn into a farce and be dropped completely. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 15 Mar 13 at 3:06pm
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My understanding is the base numbers were founded on a formula roughly based on IRC, but limited only to publicly available data. Such a system can never be very clever, but its all you're going to get unless you want to go to a more fully measured system like IRC. If you want a more fully measured system like IRC, why on earth would you not use IRC?
NHC is basically intended for entry level racing for those not ready for IRC for one reason or another. In such racing crew ability is going to be vastly more important than handicap. The fundamental problem is that Portsmouth Yardstick for cruisers had ceased to be viable. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 17 Mar 13 at 3:52pm
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I'm intersted in Bas's claim that boats out of the same mould can be 500mm different in length. Basically this scheme is personal handicaps. If that is fundamentally what people want, that's OK. I think many clubs will go down the route of saying 'boats of that design rate x on IRC, so their Mud Creek YC rating is Y'. Or they will use the old PY numbers by another name. There is already a problem that IRC owners pay a lot of money to run the system, then certain clubs appear to freeload from that. PY does not seem that popular for yachts around the Solent, although we've used PY's to create local club ratings in the past using whatever is most similar as a reference. For instance a boat (design) 3% faster on PY than a Co32 and similar in style got a club rating 3% faster. Where the rest of our club ratings came from is a mystery, but most people just seem to accept them. It's OK for wednesday night or Autumn Series racing amoung boats that are mostly owned for cruising and just want a bit of fun. If you are more serious than that, IRC or one design might be best. |
Posted By: Helmit
Date Posted: 17 Mar 13 at 8:47pm
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Hi
Whatever scheme the RYA decides on it must sure that it will work.
In its present form there are serious issues about boats sailing at another clubs event as they are required to start back at base numbers.
As was noted earlier in these posts some of the base numbers are ridiculous.
It is not enough for the RYA to say that it is just an entry level scheme and that if you want to race you need to consider IRC.
Any scheme needs to be fair to the competitors.
Helmit
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Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 18 Mar 13 at 6:38am
ISC never used PY and the 2013 NoR for RtI continues to provide ISC handicap classes for the once-a-year racers. Do you have any information that suggests the ISC is likely to adopt NHC? |
Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 18 Mar 13 at 6:41am
"Vastly more important". Not particularly true for yacht racing in a medium breeze. I gave up yacht racing in PY decades ago. Just a waste of time. Might as well toss a coin. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 09 Apr 13 at 8:05pm
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So if crew ability in leadmines is largely irrelevant, even with beginners, and the only thing that counts is your handicap - which is certainly what you seem to be implying, then why on earth does anyone bother racing them at all?
Mind you, I just had a look at a few OD result from the RTI race last year, and I note that in the Sigma 33s 13 finishers varied in elapsed time from 7:44 to 9:36 hours, and 20 Sigma 38s from 7:09 to 8:11, and that less than half the Sigma 38s had a better elapsed time than the best Sigma 33. Are you really sure that crew ability is not a lot more important than handicap? Is there really that much difference in pure boatspeed between boats of the same class? |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 10 Apr 13 at 1:13pm
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If you run the new system on that data, handicap will become pretty important, with 'identical' yachts having 15% different handicaps. Especially since the handicap goes with the yacht and not the skipper, helm or tides 'expert'. We really must get the Sunsail fleet on this system.... |
Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 11 Apr 13 at 12:07pm
Full of once-a-year racers and corporate entertainment charters. Plenty of racers decline to play bump-a-boats in that crowd. The results are hardly representative of regatta sailing. If you are going to keep on commenting on keelboat sailing, maybe you ought to try some? |
Posted By: RYATechnical
Date Posted: 11 Apr 13 at 4:10pm
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All, NHC is designed for club racing - it will not work for a single race. It is some thing that we are looking at as part of its future development - along with adding multihulls to the scheme.
We have a significant amount of boat data on which we have based the NHC Base List. Within this data it clearly shows that no two boats are the same - even in the one-design fleets are no two boats the same.
Personal Handicapping - from experience based on my email inbox and voicemail - can be an emotive subject. In the case of NHC I would argue that it is not "personal" but performance handicapping that we are applying. If we were talking about say the Laser (or Torch, take your pick), then it could be personal handicapping. But in cruisers, the personal element plays a role but so do a large variety of other factors.
There are a number of reasons as to why the RYA were forced to change systems. There are a number of reasons why we have taken some of the decisions we have done. I would like to conclude on the note that we are offering as many talks as possible on NHC - if you really want to know more about the scheme I would invite you to contact the Technical Department to have a talk arranged for a club near you.
Cheers,
Bas ------------- Bas Edmonds RYA Technical Manager |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 11 Apr 13 at 6:14pm
| What clubs are actually using this system? |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 11 Apr 13 at 8:51pm
Sorry Bas but I disagree with some of your points, most notable of which is the personal handicapping. I take the point that there is a lot of variation even within a particular model of cruiser, what with different prop configurations, different keel options, hi-tech sails, weight of boat due to fit-out, roller furling vs hanks or foil. Conventional vs assymetric spinnaker, however many small cruiser racing clubs thrive on two or three owners buying in to one particular model of a cruiser in order to get boat on boat racing. As an example, at our club over the last 10yrs we had a couple of lifting keel Sonatas, we then developed a small fleet of Jeanneau Sun 2000s, this then developed into a fleet of Jeanneau Sun 2500s, We have alongside this had a small fleet of Achilles 24, and recently we have a couple of highly competitive Impalas. In each of these cases one of the prime reasons for buying these boats was to ensure that people had someone to race off scratch. You say that no two boats are the same, but when owners go out and buy a boat which has the exact same spec. then I and they expect to be able to sail off of the same handicap, and not have it adjusted based on their personal performance. As a further example, in order to ensure that both our Impalas were equally matched one of the owners went and bought a new suit of sails to match the other owner so that they have identical boats, yet NHC will adjust these guys down very different values as they will not end up neck and neck on the water. So what do we do, well you would have us believe that dual scoring is the way, but why? Dual scoring means doubling up on prizes therefore clubs have an additional cost to administer NHC which some small clubs just wont stomach. The other thing is competitors will be confused regarding which trophy has the most clout, after all we are competitive and this is racing, not just taking part! So I dont have a problem with the method of calculation in NHC but I do have an issue with the way it is applied. I believe that I should be able to specifiy that I want two or three boats to be scored as the same type of boat and then the rating changes based on the results of those two or three boats and not on an individual. This then leads me to wonder why on earth have you over complicated this so much? You have spent 4 or 5 years developing the PYS system which I think works very well for the dinghies, and you have now worked hard to establish a basic measurement scheme for cruisers which defines your base list and yet you have missed the obvious solution of simply using these two things to drive cruiser PY forward. Your base list is fine as a start point, then get the cruiser clubs to run PYS with all of their historic data and bingo you have a local handicap where it can be applied to a particular spec of each cruiser. If you look at my clubs PYS page you will see that there are several Moody 31s, one with bilge keels one with a fin, nicely seperated by config. We even have several versions of Sadler 25s depending on the rig. Now in effect I have been looking into this method for 5yrs. We use Byron as a means to get a base number which as you know has been adopted by the clubs of the Bristol Channel, and I then enter all our results into PYS and year on year I can adjust the numbers appropriately. We have run our keenly contested Cruiser frostbite series on the two sets of numbers with Byron numbers being the official results, and the adjusted PYS numbers as a secondary scoring system. I suppose we are dual scroing but are not awarding prizes for the PYS results. They are simply there to allow us to investigate the merits of apply some local adjustment and perhaps moving away from rigidly using Byron as some owners are not convinced by the weight some measurements are given. Now call me cynical but given that RORC are now promoting NHC I cant help but feel that the RYA have done a backroom deal with RORC to try and gradually move cruiser owners towards IRC. Otherwise why adopt numbers that look like IRC numbers? If cruiser owners want to race competitively on the South Coast then I dont think the fact that the numbers look different is going to stop them paying for an IRC certificate. Sure the historic PY system failed to work for cruisers, but NHC in its current form is flawed. If you want the opportunity to prove to me and our cruiser fleet otherwise, then feel free to PM me and arrange a talk at our club (Thornbury SC), we'd be very interested to hear what you have to say. Paul |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 11 Apr 13 at 9:56pm
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I think the explanation would be much better put formally on the web, rather than expounded on in a short evening talk at a club bar. The maths of it all certainly needs to be explained formally and openly in writing. See how difficult most people in our club find understanding the simple adding up and taking away involved in club accounts, I don't think people will take this in properly once the bar's been open 20 minutes. I do not believe that most sailors want the personal handicap implied by this system. Were they ever asked? |
Posted By: Aching Knees
Date Posted: 11 Apr 13 at 10:30pm
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I agree that it is not easy setting PY for the small number of returns for cruisers but normally a handicap can be sorted out that most parties can agree on, I know who I have to beat on the water and roughly how far apart we should be. Now we are going to use the NHC it will be a case of sandbagging for the 1st few races and working out the maths to come say 3rd until the big race , then get out the best sails. Who wants to race like that? |
Posted By: Helmit
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 1:40pm
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Even if the NHC works (which is doesn't) how do you now compete at other clubs.
MAJOR CONCERN
As you know In regatta races you always return to the base list.
But the base list shows a Sonata which is currently the fastest boat on our race course as now the slowest according to the RYA list?
The base list also shows a Sunfast 26 level rating with a beneteau 21.7?
It shows different rating for the 211 the 210 and the 21.7 when they are all identical.
It shows a Sunfast 32 nearly level rating with a Benetaeu 25.7 cruiser.
It shows a cruising lift keel jeanneau 35 being faster than a Jeanneau Sun Fast 32....and on and on
If we can see this, more clubs must also have the same problem.
Remember this is a National scheme and therefore must also be fair to those boats that do travel.
We have spent years getting the seperate clubs to join together in open meetings as a means to keep numbers up and get more people into sailing.
These events would be a mockery if we adopted the RYA's scheme.
All five clubs on Lake Windermere have rejected NHC. |
Posted By: oldbloke
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 2:37pm
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The base number I like best is a MacGregor 26x rating faster than a Hunter Impala |
Posted By: Helmit
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 3:14pm
Sounds like we have the foundation for a competition?
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Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 4:38pm
how do you know, have you tried using it yet? the base number only applies once in your regular club season at the beginning. so the first few races as it gets to grips with your performances it may be inaccurate but the more you race the better it becomes (que stats geeks with "not enough data" drivel), still better than the base number and also better than some random person changing the number because they feel like it. there are two versions of calculation, a club / season formula and a regatta formula, so when turning up to a regatta the base number will jump faster than in regular season mode. you can ask to use your current season number at a regatta and its up to the organizers to allow it or not. i really struggle to understand peoples adversity to this new handicap system, if you were using the py scheme as the rya had laid out then there wouldn't be a need to change, but cruiser racers didn't, so here it is, a good fix to a problem that shouldn't of existed. its no harder now to get results and keep up to date than before just take the times upload them and it processes the results, easy. just because you have been doing something for years doesn't mean its right. just my 2 pence worth. ------------- https://skiff-media.teemill.com/" rel="nofollow - T-SHIRTS https://www.photo4me.com/profile/23908/" rel="nofollow - PRINTS |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 4:59pm
Actually, the need to change is forced by the RYA's slow shift over time from PY intending to represent the potential of a class, to representing achieved performance. I think what is needed, is for people to get together and work on the old system, using the data that is available to estimate the performance potential of designs and classes. Fundamentally, we need to decide whether the idea is that everyone has an equal chance of winning, or whether the best team should most often win. |
Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 5:19pm
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the potential of a class is its achieved performance, with the best result coming from the best sailors surely? thats how i view it anyway. no one inputted into the old system, no data, with this new nhc they have thousands of designs data there to be used. its a tweak of an old rating rule used in an updated progressive format. i believe the nhc will be a level rating for ability with the best (most consistent wining over a sustained period) thereby giving everyone a chance but still rewarding those that put in the most. for the truly bothered by rating rules and handicaps od racing is there, you just need the pockets to do it.
also nothing stopping people running nhc alongside there own local handicap system or irc etc etc ------------- https://skiff-media.teemill.com/" rel="nofollow - T-SHIRTS https://www.photo4me.com/profile/23908/" rel="nofollow - PRINTS |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 6:23pm
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Slop idol, who's paying you?
How can NHC ever be fair for people sailing the same spec, same type of boat? |
Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 11:13pm
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no one paying, just think its right thats all. just as much as people think its wrong. the internet has a higher ratio of people moaning than it does of praising, i like to buck the trend where possible... as for same spec if you have been to or go to the talk held by the rya / rorc you will hear that even the od yachts have varying differences in build and final sailing spec. nhc is a personal handicap yes so like i have said before it will put everyone on an even keel but those that are consistent will shine through. if you want hard and fast results go into irc, if youre really worried do od. dont worry at what it will, may, might, wont do and get out there try it for a season alongside your own system and see what happens, if more people turn up and sail then surely its a good thing? it is after saying "come along and have a go, youve got a chance of winning". if its no good for you and your club then fair enough drop it, but that doesnt mean its bad for others or that its bad to try in the first place. ------------- https://skiff-media.teemill.com/" rel="nofollow - T-SHIRTS https://www.photo4me.com/profile/23908/" rel="nofollow - PRINTS |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 14 Apr 13 at 3:24pm
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People might 'win' on personal handicap systems, but they won't get any respect for it. I expect it won't matter, as clubs will copy what seems to happen in Solent clubs: Boats have 'club' ratings which are a bit like somebody's best guess at how they'd rate on IRC. |
Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 14 Apr 13 at 7:02pm
There is not really a vast amount of OD left for boats with beds. There's J109s and now-ancient S/38s. Quite a change from the scene of 20 years ago when there were huge numbers of S/33s and before that Impalas, OOD34s etc. |
Posted By: hayden60
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 11:11am
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“I appreciate your scenario and
agree that NHC for that specific event will not work as well as a longer series
of 5 races or more.” This is an email quote from Bas
at the RYA in response to my request how to handicap a new 3 race series over 3
weekends involving up to six clubs in the rivers Blackwater and Colne. In other
words any regatta series with 5 or less races now has no workable handicap
series other than IRC. Well done RYA trying to bring
our sport together a great own goal! “I can very much assure you that
for the past five years the RYA Technical Department have been working
incredibly hard in trying to coax data out of clubs with many weeks spent on
the phone cold calling clubs and trying to prise a return out of them.” Another quote from Bas. I have
spoken with six clubs on the east coast none of who have been chased in recent
years and the RYAs own representatives were unaware this was happening. Mersea 6 years ago with the help
of Mike Urwin at RORC introduced dual scoring for our main weekend racing which
had been exclusively IRC. We formed a handicap committee with a proper
constitution which allowed representations by skippers with a grievance and
based on PY, local knowledge of the boats and crews, and good old common sense
set LH handicaps. This allowed anyone to come and have a go and from this the
fleet has grown and sprouted a white sail series. This has been a success and
would recommend it to any club. Unfortunately RYA have withdrawn the national
standard so either we need to get them to re-instate it, we adopt Byron or
start a whole new national data base in order to stop other than IRC racing
becoming very insular within each club. Come on RYA before it does to
much damage let’s start again with proper consultations and gain a consensus on
a way forward which unites rather than divides our sport. |
Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 11:36am
Why is that such a bad thing? Most of the major central Solent clubs manage their own club handicap system, alongside IRC. They haven't used PY in donkey's years. I'm not aware of this being seen as a problem by those who race in club handicap. Race with ISC, use ISC handicap. Race with RSYC, use RSYC handicap. What's the issue? If they want to take their racing a bit more seriously, they can go to IRC. It sounds like you want something like PHRF and its Board structure in the UK. Listening to how the Americans moan and groan about it, I'd say thanks but no thanks. It seems to me the mix of freely allocated club handicaps plus IRC addresses the need quite nicely already. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 5:13pm
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The problem with each club having its own rating system is that they are mostly apparently based on either blind guesswork and/or plagiarising IRC ratings. This leaves the boats with IRC ratings paying for the whole system. I don't know what an IRC rating costs now, but it was getting to be a barrier to some people last time I ws involved. |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 8:14pm
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And you wonder why people don't want it? I'd say open your eyes to what goes on outside of the Solent. IRC is an expensive and unnecessary system for many sailors who generally only race in their own club or at key local events. This is all clearly a ploy by the RYA to hand cruiser racing to RORC.
As I've mentioned previously, use the baselist or Byron, then use PYS to adjust. The RYA should know what tools they have in their belt, which makes me even more suspicious of a backroom deal between them and RORC. |
Posted By: Helmit
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 9:01pm
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Hi craiggo I hear what you say You wonder why the RYA did not have consultations with the clubs that were using PY and to assess how they were making variations from their PY lists for props and sail types etc and redesign this for use at all clubs. This could then have been the basis of their new numbers. Instead of having us submit the PY returns annually they could have instructed the sailwave programs to automatically upload the resuls afer each race and suddenly they have achieved the solution for PY they were looking for instead of creating a golf tournement out of racing. |
Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 1:05pm
I don't see any evidence that systems such as ISC Handicap are any more or less "blind guesswork" than any system that is not professionally administered is likely to be, or that the constituency of (largely) once-a-year racers that use it is crying out for a national system instead. IRC certificates cost £11.80 per metre which is small change in comparison with most costs associated with a racing yacht. Yes if you only race once a year, it's a lump of money you might prefer to spend elsewhere but if you only race once a year, you would be misguided to get too worked up as to your handicap. Clubs can use whatever system they want. Don't like NHC, don't use it then. Why all the angst? |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 6:28pm
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When your typical club cruiser costs £6-15k and annual club membership is £85 + £40 for a mooring, then another £100 is a large increment. For South Coast guys with Marina fees of £4k I can accept your point but you have to remember that the South Coast is not representative of the whole uk sailing scene.
Why have a paid system when a perfectly good free system could have been created for those who don't want IRC? |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 10:41pm
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It's not really free, it is paid for by RYA members. Like many people, I pay a sub to the RYA and this is one of the few things they provide for grass roots sailors. Personally I don't have much stake in cruiser racing, but the same ideas are being forced into the dinghy PY scheme more subtly. People need to understand the impact of changes and speak up if it's not what they want. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 11:01pm
The ISC system is not as blind in its guesswork as some of the anomalies in the NHC numbers. Yes the people who use such systems are mostly fairly happy, but I suspect the lack of any formula or consistency becomes an issue if you want to move from club to club, or introduce a design that is not easy to guess a club rating based on 'similar' boats. Club ratings can be quite 'finger in the air', like 'looks about half way between a Sigma 33 and and Impala to me...' This is often good enough, but I wouldn't want to have to justify it if a few seconds decided who got the champagne... While the cost of an IRC rating is not extreme to many people, it should be remembered that even modest changes can invalidate the certificate. If you go IRC, you do not just get a number, you accept a bunch of class rules to keep that cert valid. Many yachts also race singlehanded, two handed and other sub-ratings which may be separate from their IRC rating. It's worth remembering that Yot Racing is not unique to the Uk, there is other data out there if you need a number for a Saab 900 or whatever! Maybe we should be looking to share data with other countries? |
Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 17 Apr 13 at 7:37am
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^ IRC amendments are £4.40 per metre. If you want a separate short-handed rating (and most boats that race short-handed don't bother) that's £5.75 per metre. |
Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 17 Apr 13 at 7:51am
It's your assertion that "a perfectly good free system" is possible. It's pretty apparent that no handicap system ever devised, free or otherwise, is "perfectly good". The question is how imperfect you are prepared to put up with and how much you are prepared to pay to make it better. The country that's embraced performance-based handicapping for cruisers most strongly is the USA i.e. PHRF, with a regional board system for governance and, apparently, some 20,000 certificates issued annually. It's not free - a typical cost might be around £30-40 equivalent versus £100 for a 30 footer in IRC. It certainly isn't perfect, nor are handicaps produced by different regional boards identical. Whereas in the UK, we have choice: free rough-and-ready handicapping and IRC for those prepared to pay a bit more for a professionally management measurement-based system. I've owned boats that have raced in both systems and I think that choice suits most people. When 95% of my racing was OD I did handicap racing in club handicap, knowing it would take a miracle to win, because it didn't matter enough to me to pay the £ for IRC. When I did more handicap racing, I paid for an IRC certificate. That's exactly the kind of choice for owners the system we've got allows. It's got to be realised that PY more or less works for dinghies because you've got substantial numbers of returns for identical boats. For cruisers, aside from a handful of classes, you don't and you never will. The problem to be solved is not the same. Anyone who thinks there is ever going to be a system for handicapping cruisers that's both reliable and free just doesn't understand the issues. But hey, if that perfect and free system is out there, go use it. If it can be invented, go invent it. Clubs don't have to use what the RYA provides and in many cases, they don't. |
Posted By: sailorman
Date Posted: 11 Jul 13 at 10:41pm
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So We are almost halfway through the season and now would seem like a good time to see how people are getting on with he National Handicap For Cruisers?? Please post here with your practical experience. To be honest I am not sold on the system and we are having some interesting post race discussions in the Bar. We are getting an average fleet turn out for our Evening series of about 15 boats. Generally the fleet are fairly inconsistent with their performance with the winner one week being Mid fleet the next. The result being their handicaps have not changed too much. On the reverse we have two boats in the fleet which have been sailed consistently well and as a result they have had regular top 3 results throughout the series. As a result their handicaps have got progressively quicker to the extent that one started on 0.997 and is now1.044 and the other started on 1.020 and is now 1.051. Both of these boats are now finding it almost impossible to win and instead the top results are going to the in consistent performers who have seen little change to their base no. In summary to win under NHC you clearly need to have a few good results but make sure you have some down the pan days to keep the adjustment of your handicap in check. If you do consistently well then your handicap becomes out of line with the wider fleet and very difficult to sail to. It would be interesting to hear the RYA's thoughts on this and anyone else out there who is using the NHC this season
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Posted By: Gritts
Date Posted: 21 Aug 13 at 7:05am
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At the Colne Yacht Club we use the RYA system and IRC. They produce 2 sets of results. I own Panic (1/4 tonner) and we only take any notice of the IRC results. We have boats that are bigger than us but don't wish to be involved the IRC side of things. On the basis that there is a lot of IRC information out there, then any club should be able to allocate an IRC number to any boat that doesn't have one or wish to get one. Personal handicap, is I believe aimed at "getting people racing" is the reason we are suffering the RYA thing. A few years ago I had an SB20 (3) and when I first got it nobody said lets give him a personal handicap number..NO I had to go out and practise to get better... What has happened to that school of "the more we practise...The luckier we get" Geoff.
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