3000 CLASS PY
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10749
Printed Date: 17 Jul 25 at 4:19pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: 3000 CLASS PY
Posted By: dontdocalm!
Subject: 3000 CLASS PY
Date Posted: 04 Mar 13 at 9:39pm
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As there is no CA web presence & no CA forum discussion opportunity, can anyone please explain how, as a Laser 3000 club sailor, I can understand my class's handicap changing by 15 points? We achieved a decent 11 race series result at Burghfield a while ago on 1032 and felt pretty content that the handicap was fair, and were confident that our result pretty well reflected the effort we had put in to mastering boat handling to ensure we could optimise our performance in strong winds to offset the poor results we could expect in light winds. Ok, we could now have finished 1st instead of 3rd. But that wouldn't have felt right against the opposition we had. Knowing that v3000s have competed in various open handicap races on 1032, and Wilsonian V3000s have been using 1010 (or similar), all with good results, how has the class ended up with a favourable change of 15 points?
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Replies:
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 04 Mar 13 at 10:28pm
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It does seem quite hard to see why a trapeze asymmetric boat should be 100 points slower than an RS400, particularly based on a low number of races. 384 races could be just half a dozen mediocre boats with old sails at a club or two that set poor courses but happen to put returns in. Just enjoy it on the water. |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 04 Mar 13 at 10:53pm
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There will be two or three boats at our club wondering the same. It does tend to defy logic and lend further doubt to the credibility of those running the thing as i've been trying to point out on the PY thread, regretably there is no-one in. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: Telltale
Date Posted: 05 Mar 13 at 7:56am
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There is an assumption that the PY change is due to boats at
clubs returning results that are significantly different to the year before. |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 05 Mar 13 at 8:10am
Indeed, it's the biggest mystery on the list for me. Not a major class though so I don't think too many will be that upset. If you're not happy with it then I suggest you ask your sailing com to give you a local adjustment......Tell them what PY you want to use. Much Kudoss if you do. Many sailors I've met would have kept mum and cleaned up.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Mar 13 at 8:41am
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The reason for the change is simple, that's what the numbers say.
As for why, realistically no-one can know. It might be that its a class that, under the old system, has tended to be ignored by clubs and just had the old number recommended because they can't be bothered to do anything else, and now that we are getting much more data through the web system this isn't happening - as it happens the Laser 3000 numbers are almost all from the web system now. It might be that there are few top sailors left in the class. It might be simply that as the remaining Laser 3000s get older and older and more and more clapped out they are getting slower and slower. It might be that the general trend is that dinghies as a whole tend to get just a bit faster every year with improved sail materials, maintenance, techniques etc, and the poor old 3 tonners are being left behind. Its probably a combination of some or all of these and about a dozen others that haven't occurred to me. But one new sailor at one club isn't going to make any great difference. Once a class gets to the stage where a few sailors will make a difference then it disappears from the list. Especially as one of the aspects of the system is that results worse than a certain trigger value are simply discarded, so in practice beginner's results rarely contribute to the system at all. The big pressure for change in the PY system of recent years has been for the scheme to be more dynamic and reflect what's seen on the water now. This change is what's seen on the water now. PY is principally an observed performance scheme. Its not a bunch of people sitting in a room and deciding what they think the numbers should be. And anyone who thinks that 15 points is going to turn a mid fleeter into a series winner badly needs to sit down with a spreadsheet and a set of their club results... [Later] oh and just in case it isn't obvious. The V3000 is quite another game of soldiers from the Laser 3000. The two classes should not be confused. Should returns for V3000s reach a point where a number can be published it will be published. Active V3000 sailors need to encourage their clubs to make returns. |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 05 Mar 13 at 9:38am
There, right there, that's why the system is screwed, because no-one knows, ffs it could be a bloody glitch in the software for all we know and another year passes.  +15 might not make that big a difference, but +15 against -15 does, especially if its accumulated on top of a similar negative figure last season. Doh this is going round and round, I think I've had enough. Ah Why Eh? It's their system what else would you expect... Oh and as a footnote, the L3k was my first experience of twin handed sailing and good fun it was, we used to have great battles over the water for line honours with RS400's and 470's if the breeze was wire capable and in light weather the RS200 would sometimes creep past if the wind dropped in the closing stages of a summer evening series event, so an RS 400 isn't going to have much of a prayer now is it?
------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 05 Mar 13 at 11:59am
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Like you GRF I get fed up with the same old same old. I find it slightly disingenuous when folk suggest that a 1.5% advantage is "only a couple of bad tacks" or even suggest "a good sailor will still win". It's patronising dogma. 1.5% is 45 seconds in the average race. If you think you're in with a chance of doing well or even aspire to doing well then 45 seconds advantage is important. This forum is almost exclusively about racing. Threads discussing the best rope, control line rigging, sail shape, lee bowing etc. these subjects are disected to the nth obsessive degree in order that folk can improve their racing and chances of doing well and I applaud it............. and yet some of the same folk imply that 45 seconds advantage/disadvantage on the water is not important. Do me a favour
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Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 05 Mar 13 at 12:19pm
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I actually agree with this completely. its not so much the 45 seconds thats the problem, its the associated Wind paterns, start and race course traffic (in pursuit races) despite 45 seconds not neccesarily changing the final top positions in a race, it may make a difference not seen on a spreadsheet. Could it of helped make better tactical decsions. Absolutely! So to counter Jims point, those that think 45 seconds wont change the results in a race course need to get their head out of a spreadsheet and actually start sailing a bit more to understands the pitfulls and massive changes something like 45 seconds could actually make------------- |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 05 Mar 13 at 12:23pm
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I get annoyed at the suggestion that all local club racers are somehow inferior to the rule bending super sail jockey types. I tell you there's not one that could come down to this lake and helm my boat to do much more than 10% better than I and not a chance they'd beat the locals on handicap, who have years of experience and although a bit grey round the ears, will crank a lee bow on you out of the line that you'll never break, sooner than you can say Eric Twiname. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: dontdocalm!
Date Posted: 05 Mar 13 at 2:38pm
Re the point you added re the V3000s, its precisely because of that which makes this change so incomprehensible! There is only a 3000 class now, although the RYA don't seem to have caught up, with both Laser and Vs combined in that class. The CA recommended a reduced PY for Vs in open events, but this was rarely adhered to. But the regularly racing Vs at Willies used a mixture of numbers I believe, the most successful on 1010, I think, possibly lower. So there were quick boats posting results at the club with the largest contingent throughout the season. Hence why I find the change so odd.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Mar 13 at 3:18pm
To the best of my knowledge the RYA receive no returns for a combined 3000 class but do receive returns for both Laser 3000s and V3000s. |
Posted By: dontdocalm!
Date Posted: 05 Mar 13 at 3:46pm
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 05 Mar 13 at 5:24pm
Sounds like the PY is for the Laser 3000 and the V3000 is in the abyss of not enough returned races? |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Mar 13 at 5:47pm
'xactly so. |
Posted By: hollandsd
Date Posted: 05 Mar 13 at 6:43pm
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Im in the process of getting the 3000 site back up and running, my Jury service has now ended and I have a little more time to get it sorted. As far as im aware the RYA only accepts 3000 returns, be it Laser or Vandercraft. I believe Tony Hunt at Willsonian has not been racing his Vandercraft boat but his Laser boat and they regularly make returns to the RYA. Its likely that as the class is an aging one (in boat terms) that the PY will increase slowly as the number of boats racing declines and the condition of those still racing declines also. I have'nt seen the returns from the RYA to say definitively either way. Hopefully the website will be back soon, if not a new one will be built. We are still here, dont forget us :-) Dan ------------- Laser 184084 Tasar 3501 RS600 698 RS600 782 |
Posted By: robin34024
Date Posted: 05 Mar 13 at 6:49pm
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What I REALLY don't get about the laser 3000 PY is that there is also the laser 2, which has the exact same hull shape, just a different deck molding, a symmetric spinnaker and a smaller sail area but is considered faster..? ------------- |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 05 Mar 13 at 6:55pm
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Maybe the Laser 2 suits club race courses better with a trad kite? Sail area is pretty similar, too. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 05 Mar 13 at 7:29pm
I think that would fit my personal theory that the cutoff for an asymmetric being really effective is around 1000 PY. Anything slower than that seems to spend a lot of time hoovering from side to side (having a lot of fun) while the Wayfarers go straight to the mark. I can believe a Laser 2 is faster than a Scorpion in a lot of conditions. |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 05 Mar 13 at 7:46pm
I don't know what racing software you use, but sailwave allows you to enter what ever you want, and adjust the py as you see fit. If someone races a v3000 then their class is entered as v3000 in sailwave. If they enter a Laser 3000 then that is entered into sailwave. When you upload to PYS then the classes are named as per sailwave, so if your club chooses to score v3000s off of 1035 and Laser 3000s off of 1040 then they will go in as separate lines and will remain seperate when analysed by the RYA. PYS will also provide you with a club recommended number for each. I would suggest that there is probably some confusion amongst clubs sailing this class where some will race both off of one number while others split them, I also suspect that numbers racing may fall below the threshold to go onto the 2013 PY numbers. |
Posted By: dontdocalm!
Date Posted: 06 Mar 13 at 8:47am
I appreciate everyone's comments. Hopefully, if the CA site is restored soon, we can confine our confusion to the privacy of our own cyberspace without risking boring the pants off you again!
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Posted By: hollandsd
Date Posted: 06 Mar 13 at 8:53am
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Hopefully by the end of today there should be a site of some description back up and running. Dan ------------- Laser 184084 Tasar 3501 RS600 698 RS600 782 |