One turn penalties
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10724
Printed Date: 18 Jul 25 at 6:47am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: One turn penalties
Posted By: Wetabix
Subject: One turn penalties
Date Posted: 23 Feb 13 at 9:19am
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I know that in some competitions (eg match racing) the 'two turn' penalty has been replaced by a 'one turn' penalty. There is even a 'prescription' to the US Sailing version of the RRS that gives this option. Has anybody come across this at club level, and if so is it a good or bad thing? As one who sails a multihull in a dinghy fleet, I would welcome it! George Morris Weta 117
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Replies:
Posted By: Telltale
Date Posted: 23 Feb 13 at 9:36am
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We have this at our club and the thinking behind it is that it encourages people to take their penalties and comply, as opposed to ignore rules. "My personal view" is that it doesn't work! Small bumps get diminished in gravity and the more serious racers push the limits and don't get properly penalised for infringements and are back in the race without loosing any ground. It has to be said that "circuit racers" are not in this category having learnt a sailing culture outside the club. I could go on but suffice it to say, I don't agree with the idea.
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 23 Feb 13 at 10:53am
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On the odd occassion where I know I've made a mistake and infringed the rules, I'm happy to do two turns and get a finish. Often such a finishing position would be OK for series points. I think a one turn penalty might encourage people to take a turn rather than fight their corner in a protest when they 'know' they are right, as you can make yourself bulletproof, while losing less ground than the boat you have just tangled with. That might actually lead to less clarity of the rules? |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 23 Feb 13 at 1:35pm
| The trouble is it depends so much on the boat... a fast roll tacker can do two turns before some other craft have got through one. But I can't think of a better alternative. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 23 Feb 13 at 2:27pm
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Maybe place penalties? Most of the time what I'd like to see from other people is just an admission they were wrong, unless something significant hangs on the result, an apology is more important than a penalty. |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 23 Feb 13 at 9:09pm
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It might be interesting to read rule E4.3b. In this rule for radio sailing the intentionis that the boat that takes a penalty keeps taking turns until the advantage they gained is over. Better than retiring.
------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Owenfackrell
Date Posted: 23 Feb 13 at 9:21pm
| What about they way they have been doing it in the ac series? Where they have to slow right down and they are not allowed to carry on till they have cleared the other boat. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 23 Feb 13 at 9:28pm
I guess you need an umpire to make that work? |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 23 Feb 13 at 10:39pm
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Not really - keep taking turns until you are behind the boat you fouled - simple really. If you don't the penalty is not appropriate and the jury can disqualify you. ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: NickM
Date Posted: 24 Feb 13 at 12:23am
| That would not really work if the boat that was fouled was ahead and stayed ahead in the moments afterwards, (e.g. being hit on the transom by an overtaking boat.) |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 24 Feb 13 at 12:27am
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One turn is more common in keelboats, where 2 turns, particularly in light winds - can be a huge penalty. And the penalty in match racing is a gybe on the beat and a tack on the run. Taken at any time - you don't have to take it straight away (unless it's your second, or the umps have give you double penalty (deliberate breach), or given you one with a red flag because your infringement resulted in a change in control).
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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 24 Feb 13 at 9:55am
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But then in match racing we are not talking about a "self-policing"sport. There is no provision to take a voluntary penalty. Competitors play to the whistle - exactly what we want to avoid. One turn penalties work on short courses, or in keelboats which take time to turn. Adding the provision that additional turns may be taken until any advantage gained seems to me to be sensible. It is always infuriating to be fouled and then watch the guilty boat take quick turns and sail away leaving you behind trying to sort out the mess created. ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: rogerd
Date Posted: 24 Feb 13 at 2:52pm
I think we should go back to infringe and retire or be DSQ
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Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 24 Feb 13 at 6:34pm
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"one turn" is also pretty common in fast asymmetric racing. Often with the penalty for hitting a mark entirely removed. A variation that I've also seen (though only occasionally) is that if a penalty is incurred downwind it doesn't have to be taken until the head of the spinnaker is below the gooseneck- ie you don't have to drop, spin and re-hoist. Ultimately, for class racing, these things are up to the class to decide what works for them. For mixed handicap club fleets, they are for the fleet members to decide what works for them. If penalties are too lenient and observance of the rules too lax the racing will cease to be fun. ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: gbr940
Date Posted: 24 Feb 13 at 7:38pm
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Can I just say it's 720 degrees not 2 turns - as per the RRS. This penalty is absolutely sufficient, a single turn does not penalise enough for the crime you may (or may not have committed). If someone doesn't do a penalty take them to the room or at least discuss it ashore and if it was a blatant infringement perhaps recommend retirement to the protestor. This twaddle about keelboats who can't turn 720 degrees in light wind should is utter rubbish, any decent race crew can spin a keelboat/yacht almost on its keel with the right know how - 360 degrees isn't a big enough penalty for any infringement, in some instances you can actually come out better then when you started the penalty manouver. ------------- RS400 GBR1321 |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 24 Feb 13 at 7:54pm
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Therule was modified from720° to Two turn because it is easy to answer the question did the boat tack and gybe twice, wheras did she turn360° (and not 359°) was a difficultquestio to which giva an adequate answer. Can't say I agree with classes which effectively say wait until it is convenient before taking your penalty. This is as much about seeing that justice is done. Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 24 Feb 13 at 8:16pm
There are quite a lot of people racing long keel dayboats like XOD's, Victory, Sunbeams, which will stop dead in some circumstances, for instance if the wind is light but there is chop from wind over tide. A modern fin keel yacht is a different animal. But this is the dinghy forum. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 24 Feb 13 at 8:24pm
It's not always justice though, sometimes people take a penalty because they are unsure whether what happened was their fault, there are times when you don't want people to be out of the game, just going through the motions for a poor result, you want to enjoy racing against them. Sometimes 5 turns would not be enough. Other times just tacking off would be fine by me. There can be a difference in club racing, where a boats only crime is to fail to predict what boats in another fleet or some other outside influence. But in most cases if the difference between 1 or 2 turns makes you not enjoy the racing, it's all out of shape. |
Posted By: gbr940
Date Posted: 24 Feb 13 at 9:58pm
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Ah maaan - apologies you're correct, 2 turns...muchos apologies! I agree, some people take the micky and try and do it alot later in the race - black and white though: 44.2 One-Turn and Two-Turns Penalties After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible, a boat takes a One-Turn or Two-Turns Penalty by promptly making the required number of turns in the same direction, each turn including one tack and one gybe. When a boat takes the penalty at or near the finishing line, she shall sail completely to the course side of the line before finishing ------------- RS400 GBR1321 |