Which rules says you cant hold the committe boat?
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Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10683
Printed Date: 28 Jun 25 at 2:59am
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Topic: Which rules says you cant hold the committe boat?
Posted By: GarethT
Subject: Which rules says you cant hold the committe boat?
Date Posted: 03 Feb 13 at 5:20pm
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Which rule says you can't hold on to the committee boat just before the start? I ask because Rule 31 is deleted for windsurfers (in Appendix B) and I can't see any other rule that says you shouldn't touch a starting mark, so if you can touch it can you hold on to it? |
Replies:
Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 03 Feb 13 at 5:41pm
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31 TOUCHING A MARK While racing, a boat shall not touch a starting mark before starting, a mark that begins, bounds or ends the leg of the course on which she is sailing, or a finishing mark after finishing. ------------- Needs to sail more... |
Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 03 Feb 13 at 5:44pm
| Hence the question can windsurfers hold the start mark, as rule 31 is deleted? |
Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 03 Feb 13 at 5:45pm
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Sorry thought you were asking from a boat point of view. I couldn't give an answer about windsurfing, sorry.
------------- Needs to sail more... |
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 03 Feb 13 at 6:26pm
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Probably covered by rule 45, making fast. You are not allowed to be moored. Or if anchored you have to recover it and take it with you. ------------- Andy Mck |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 03 Feb 13 at 11:30pm
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45 and, perhaps 24.3
------------- Gordon |
Posted By: GML
Date Posted: 04 Feb 13 at 11:28am
| Except that rule 45 is deleted for Windsurfers too! |
Posted By: Reuben T
Date Posted: 04 Feb 13 at 8:10pm
| A variation for dinghies that I experienced last summer when the lake was horribly low. After capsizing just behind the starting line I discovered I could touch the bottom. Would I have been allowed to stand there holding my boat until the start? |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 04 Feb 13 at 8:36pm
45 HAULING OUT; MAKING FAST; ANCHORING A boat shall be afloat and off moorings at her preparatory signal. Thereafter, she shall not be hauled out or made fast except to bail out, reef sails or make repairs. She may anchor or the crew may stand on the bottom. She shall recover the anchor before continuing in the race unless she is unable to do so. |
Posted By: Reuben T
Date Posted: 05 Feb 13 at 7:03pm
cool  , almost a shame the lake has filled up. What about rights of way, would I have any? |
Posted By: JohnW
Date Posted: 05 Feb 13 at 7:55pm
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I remember watching the start of a race from the HISC club line against the tide many years ago. One of the boats launched early, lined his bows up with the start transit and stood there in the water holding his boat. After the start signal, he just waited for a puff of wind that was strong enough to stem the tide and he jumped in. I think he may have repeated the process along the beach between puffs of wind. All legal I believe. ------------- |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 05 Feb 13 at 8:24pm
You really need to read the rules for yourself. Here they are http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/ISAFRRS20132016Final-%5b13376%5d.pdf - http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/ISAFRRS20132016Final-[13376].pdf Meanwhile, here's rule 22 23 CAPSIZED, ANCHORED OR AGROUND; RESCUING If possible, a boat shall avoid a boat that is capsized or has not regained control after capsizing, is anchored or aground, or is trying to help a person or vessel in danger. A boat is capsized when her masthead is in the water. |
Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 06 Feb 13 at 3:17pm
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You'd have to watch 42.1 as well...
------------- Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard" Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile" |
Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 06 Dec 13 at 12:08pm
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They've had a look at this and the urgent rule updates include a rule that boards can hit marks but not hold onto them. I wonder if anyone actually tried holding the end of the line in a major race.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 Dec 13 at 12:41pm
I've done that in the past. I was racing the Canoe on the Thames (not a clever idea, don't do this at home folks), the start area was considerably crowded, and manouvering the IC around was a bit sketchy, so I retreated to stand on a ledge next to the bank until a minute or a bit under to go, and things were safer for everyone. I think if you tried doing it tactically (ie anchor yourself in the middle of the line until the gun) you might be a bit vulnerable to Rule 2, but I suspect the chief issue is that, if I read the rules right, whilst everyone might have to keep clear of you while you are "anchored", the second you jump in the boat you owe everyone around you room to keep clear under RRS15, and your chances of getting away from a crowded line cleanly and without needing to take a penalty must be pretty low. It seems to me the "touch but not hold" alteration made to App B3 is an alteration that might be wisely made by those classes that delete RRS31 in their SIs. |
Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 06 Dec 13 at 1:58pm
Interesting, 24.3 doesn't appear in my copy of the rules!?
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Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 06 Dec 13 at 2:00pm
| Also, if your bow crosses the start line and then you drift onto the pin end... have you started and then are not required to take a penalty under 31. The rule clearly says a starting mark before starting. Is the pin end a mark that begins a leg of the course perhaps? |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 06 Dec 13 at 5:58pm
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I can't remeber the exact wording, but generally with the B14s if we delete the penalty for touching a mark, there's something about manhandling in such a way as to gain an advantage (eg in tide and light wind, grabbing the mark and hauling yourself round- I reckon that would cover this situation?
------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 06 Dec 13 at 11:29pm
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24.3 is a rule introduced in Appendix B. The pin end ark, after starting begins the first leg... if you touch it after starting but before rounding the first mark you have broken rule 31. ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 06 Dec 13 at 11:41pm
The 'not touch a starting mark before starting' is there because before she starts a boat is not sailing on any leg at all, so the 'begins, bound, or ends the leg of the course' condition will not work. So yes, if a boat touches a starting mark after starting and before she is on the next leg of the course, she breaks rule 31.
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 07 Dec 13 at 12:46am
How could a boat be said to break rule 2 by doing something that is expressly permitted by rule 45?
Firstly, rule 45 makes it clear that a boat can be anchored, OR a boat can have her crew standing on the bottom. Having crew standing on the bottom (and, obviously, hanging onto the boat), is not being 'anchored'. Rule 23 applies to a boat that is anchored, but not to a boat that has a crew standing on the bottom (except for capsize or helping). Secondly, rule 23 is not a right of way rule: the obligation is to 'if possible ... avoid', not keep clear, and the other right of way rules in Section A are switched off (Preamble, Section D).
Rule 15 only applies to a boat that acquires right of way. For a boat with crew standing on the bottom, rule 23 will not apply and Section A right of way rules (P/S, W/L etc) will still be applying, and the crew jumping in the boat will not cause the boat to acquire or lose right of way, so the jumping in won't trigger rule 15. For a boat that is anchored, breaking the anchor out WILL switch rule 23 off, and switch the Section A right of way rules back on, so, depending on whether she is on Starboard, Leeward, etc the boat that was anchored may acquire right of way and a rule 15 limitation to give room to keep clear.
I don't think it would be a real practical problem. In this day and age, if conditions are so light or tide-bound that boats cannot manoeuvre properly in the starting area the RO should postpone or abandon the start until conditions are suitable for sailing. If you do choose to anchor or put your crew overside, then you will normally pick your moment to let go at a time when you won't get into trouble.
Yup, that seems pretty right. |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 07 Dec 13 at 10:06am
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Brass, Could you explain which rules of Section A apply to a boat that is immobilised by the crew standing on the bottom? Could you explain why rule 23 applies to a boat immobilised by a piece of metal and a rope but not to a boat held by her crew standing on the bottom? ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 07 Dec 13 at 10:44am
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Must admit I've always inferred from RRS45 that the crew standing on the bottom counted as being anchored. That may not be a valid assumption of course. The reason for my inference is the rule heading being Hauling out, making fast and anchoring. Anchoring by standing on the bottom always seemed to me to be just another form of anchoring, which is permitted, as opposed to say tying on to a jetty, which isn't.
The situation I felt might be of dubious sporting status with respect to holding the boat whilst standing on the bottom would be if, with a dinghy, the crew held the boat fractionally short of the line in a close hauled position so as to occupy the ideal spot on the line, and then jumped in the boat during the last few seconds so as to obtain a perfect start. Naturally this is a situation that would rarely occur since very few starts are run in such shallow water that this would be practical. Very hard for the RRS to include wordings for really bizarre circumstances like that... |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 07 Dec 13 at 11:09am
I think all the same rules apply, in the same way that they do to a boat that is NOT immobilised by the crew standing on the bottom.
No I can't. You would need to ask the members of the ISAF Racing Rules Committee who drafted rules 45 and 23.
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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 07 Dec 13 at 11:40am
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An alternative - and in my opinion far more logical reading is that rule 23 applies to boats immobilised by their crew standing on the bottom. The situation is common at some estuary venues - Maldon springs to mind - where racing starts as soon as there is deep enough water on the start line. The start is always against the current. Boats line up near the bank, with the crew in the water, then start to sail as late as possible. ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 07 Dec 13 at 12:27pm
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Let's explore the logic of Brass' opinion on rule 23. If a boat is held by the crew he will usually do so by holding the bow. The boat will lie to the current or the wind. If to the wind then the boat will lie head to wind, yawing from side to side. In other word's it will be permanently subject to rule 13 and required to keep clear then. If the boat lies to the current and the current is not in line with the wind the boat may lie at an angle that is below close-hauled. Rule 13 will not apply, but 10, 11 and 12 may apply and in certain circumstances the boat will be required to keep clear. If in keeping clear the crew in the water does anything to contribute to propelling the boat then rule 42 has been broken. We are far from an application of the KISS principle, and are tying ourselves up in logical knots. If I heard a protest regarding this situation I would apply rule 23 and request confirmation, or on an International Jury, launch a Q&A. ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 08 Dec 13 at 12:41pm
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Following up on Brass's suggestion I have contacted one of those who drafts the rules... They have no problem with applying rule 23 to a boat held by a crew member standing on the bottom. Such a boat is secured firmly in one position, in other words "anchored". As the verb "to anchor" is not defined in the racing rules then it is to be used in the sense ordinarily understood in nautical or general use. A dictionary definition gives the following: Full Definition of ANCHORtransitive verb 1: to hold in place in the water by an anchor <anchor a ship> 2: to secure firmly : http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fix" rel="nofollow - fix <anchor a post in concrete> 3: to act or serve as an anchor for <it is she who is anchoring the rebuilding campaign — G. D. Boone> <anchoring the evening news> intransitive verb 1: to cast anchor 2: to become fixed ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 08 Dec 13 at 10:04pm
If they're crazy? going to have far more control over most boats holding it by the shroud chainplates (or similar position for an unstayed boat), sails free, at an angle to the wind. ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 08 Dec 13 at 10:12pm
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and so much less strain on the back - especially in a currentor in any wind.... ------------- Gordon |