Miami
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10668
Printed Date: 17 Jul 25 at 10:02pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Miami
Posted By: Jon Emmett
Subject: Miami
Date Posted: 29 Jan 13 at 10:44am
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Interesting to see in Miami the 49erFX fleet is just one boat less than the Womens 470 (which is now being raced with the Men's fleet). So what do people think of the new format??? < id="_npwlo" ="applicationpwlo" height="0"> ------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
Replies:
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 29 Jan 13 at 11:16am
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When you said "Just one boat less" I at first thought that meant it was a big fleet. Checked the site, turns out it's a http://mocrresults.ussailing.org/2013/FX/FX.html - really small fleet with just two boats from outside North America out of the eight.
Not exactly attracting the cream of the world's talent, is it? For the 49ers or the 470s, both sexes. ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 29 Jan 13 at 11:20am
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Actually I thought that the FX fleet was respectable considering it is brand new boat but compare the 470s to last year... ------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
Posted By: SoggyBadger
Date Posted: 29 Jan 13 at 11:27am
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Eight boats. Wow that's a big number. The competitors are going to have to use the fingers of both hands to count that high!
------------- Best wishes from deep in the woods SB |
Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 29 Jan 13 at 11:43am
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I think a lot of people are having a big of a break after the Olympics. Much as I like shopping I was not tempted to go to Miami this year. Instead I was thinking about joining the circuit when it hits Europe in Palma or Hyeres...
< id="_npwlo" ="applicationpwlo" height="0"> ------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
Posted By: Jamesd
Date Posted: 29 Jan 13 at 12:16pm
THE SHOPPING!  I personally find ocean drive and hot wings the appeal oh and the good weather and great sailing conditions. |
Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 29 Jan 13 at 12:20pm
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Oh, I thought most people went just for the shopping! I was the only Cbinese coach who even took to the water before the regatta started... As it is usually a warm and light wind regatta there is usually lots of space in the suitcase to bring back stuff. The Chinese team leader even told the girls not to pack their hiking pants so that they had more weight free for shopping... Fortunately the girls listened to me and brought all their sailing clothing with them but the ratio of shopping days to sailing days was pretty close to 1:1 !!! ------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 29 Jan 13 at 12:33pm
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I am with Jon on this. Most of the people who did the 2012 Olympics are now likely to be taking a (well earned) break whilst they consider their options for 2016. You see this all the time in the big international ragattas with the attendances usually much lower at the start of a cycle. Be interesting to see if Scheidt can recapture his old form in the Laser when he is back up to speed (and if he will use a 'classic' or XD style kicker). Things may have moved on and he might not be the dominant force he once was. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 29 Jan 13 at 12:47pm
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Maybe not the best judge but Robert won six out of seven races at his first regatta, the Italian Nationals... ------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
Posted By: Jamesd
Date Posted: 29 Jan 13 at 2:20pm
maybe i'm missing something. I will check out the shopping front! |
Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 29 Jan 13 at 2:28pm
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[/QUOTE] maybe i'm missing something. I will check out the shopping front! You definitely are if you have never been to one of the huge retail parks!!!< id="_npwlo" ="applicationpwlo" height="0"> ------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
Posted By: SoggyBadger
Date Posted: 29 Jan 13 at 2:35pm
Do they sell Balti pies? ------------- Best wishes from deep in the woods SB |
Posted By: Jamesd
Date Posted: 29 Jan 13 at 3:05pm
maybe i'm missing something. I will check out the shopping front! You definitely are if you have never been to one of the huge retail parks!!!< id="_npwlo" ="applicationpwlo" height="0"> [/QUOTE]
Nope, can,t say i have. Will certainly check them out next month. To be honest my days consist of sailing, get off the water, beers within "the grove" (jordy accent for that) then hooters for chicken wings and ocean drive for night clubs.......shopping hasn't yet crossed my mind.
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Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 29 Jan 13 at 7:18pm
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So back to sailing, what do people think of the scoring? ------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 29 Jan 13 at 9:19pm
 ------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 29 Jan 13 at 9:55pm
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I actually like it. Not traditional, but easy for the non sailing public to understand. I am sure some traditionalists will hate it. Not for silly courses like we had at weymouth though. Also would make a much more clean final race., as long as we are not missing something on the right there. Andy ------------- Andy Mck |
Posted By: MattK
Date Posted: 29 Jan 13 at 9:58pm
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Totally stupid, over complicated It needs to be in line with all levels of sailing below it, and this idea would never work at club level, there is nothing wrong with a normal system They need to scrap the medal races too, Ben should have got silver and Iain and Bart gold in weymouth
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Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 29 Jan 13 at 10:04pm
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I think one final race makes the final result very weather dependent. As different people can have a significant speed advantage depending on whether it is 5 or 25 knots!!! ------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 30 Jan 13 at 6:04am
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Oh why do the powers-that-be feel the need to faff about with the format and scoring of sailboat racing all the time in order to 'widen it's appeal'? Constant need to dumb everything down to the lowest possible level so the cast of TOWIE can "get it"... is this really neccessary? This system puts everything (in terms of who wins) on the conditions on-course during the final race. OK, that's going to be interesting, nay possibly exciting in some circumstances I agree. But it won't find out who the best sailor is? |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 30 Jan 13 at 8:11am
| Utter garbage |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 30 Jan 13 at 8:24am
| I dunno, I've never understood that the 'oi polloi have any trouble in understanding why the football league winners don't necessarilly win the last match of the season or can have the title sewn up before they get there... |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 30 Jan 13 at 8:51am
| What a load of bollox. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 30 Jan 13 at 9:12am
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I think it might make a nice change for a novelty day at a sailing club, especially if you tweak it for using a fleet of team racing boats, but as the way to run a week long international regatta designed to decide who the best in the world is? Just too much luck involved, both in terms of weather and in "taking a flyer" and hoping for the best - certainly doesn't allow consistancy to pay.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 30 Jan 13 at 9:26am
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The major problem is that most of the fleet goes home after the first round. For the sponsor it must be very depressing to see so few people at the prize-giving, as everyone who is not involved in the final will be on the way home by then. Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 30 Jan 13 at 9:28am
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Actually probably with the logistics involved very few people will go home but not sure how many people would do the prize giving! My concern is that for some classes it may be relatively easy to make the top six then who ever wins the final race wins the event, meaning the only day which matters in (in this case) Friday... ------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 30 Jan 13 at 9:39am
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Logistics may be a problem at the very biggest event. Time for some shopping! But when most people are driving home, they will be long gone. Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 30 Jan 13 at 11:21am
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All the time there is a beat in a sailboat race none sailors are never going to get it.
"He went round that last buoy first why is he not first now" "He went the wrong way" "That's not fair, how did the others get to go the right way and he didn't" Answer that question with any logic and certainty and you can provide a solution for them, answer it not and all that remains is to line them up and drag race in a straight line or around a beam reach circuit will be the only way you'll get the typical Sun reader and or some Mail readers to work out who's winning and why. It's stupid even trying to explain to none sailors and for the most part they are not really watching if we're honest with ourselves, so all this fiddling about does is inconvenience us and ours (How can you pass on knowledge of how to win stuff when the goal posts keep changing). |
Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 30 Jan 13 at 11:22am
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As a coach I just know the huge dedication of the full time sailors. Therefore my concern is always that "the best man wins"... ------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 30 Jan 13 at 11:29am
A worthy sentiment, but who is the best man, the one who is consistent across a series or the one who can really turn it on when the pressure is at its utmost? Is the problem I've always had when looking at scoring systems even at my humble club level. If A and B are very close a tweak to the scoring system may put one ahead of the other, but how on earth do you work out which one should be ahead? If on the other hand A is clearly better than B then the smart money is tweaks to the scoring system wouldn't make any difference anyway. |
Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 30 Jan 13 at 11:36am
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I think possibly the most confusing scoring system about is the BTCC and even they dont kick out half of the competitors before the final race (or few races). I dont think getting rid of half the fleet will make it any more easy to understand what is going on at all. I see there could be an advantage of easier footage with fewer boats, which I suppose could make for better viewing.
But... all in all... I say just have a normal series. The only reason the footballers have a cup format for things like the world cup is that it would take too long for every team to play each other in a league format. We dont have that problem with sailing because everyone races together, we have match racing to compare to football.
There we have it, save the knockout competition for match racing (FA cup) and the standard series for the rest of the time (Premier league). We already have both formats so why add another "hybrid"!?
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Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 30 Jan 13 at 11:47am
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Actually I personally think someone who is consistent across a range of conditions (fast in 5 and 25 knots) should win. Believe me there was plenty of pressure in the Olympics before the medal race and we still saw match racing finishes. However I do understand the need for the medal race format we had at last years games, so maybe we have got it just about right... Just look how consistent even the best 49er sailors are, a winner takes it all race does not seem right to me but it is OMVHO... ------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 30 Jan 13 at 12:09pm
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Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 30 Jan 13 at 12:17pm
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Sadly money talks and by having a medal race it was easier to "sell" to the public. I do not know how much the medal races increased the number of viewers or whether ticket sells from the Nothe generated a significant income but this seems to be the way things are going.... ------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 30 Jan 13 at 12:44pm
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You can't say the Best Man won the Finns at Weymouth, Ben love him as we all do was well off form and the outcome and behind the scene rumours were that at best he was lucky and worse the victory contrived with a bit of team (from a friend) sailing gave it to him.
You could also argue precisely because the format is as it is he knew he didn't necessarily have to try too hard early on whereas the Dane went hard for it in every race. So the format doesn't really work for either us or the ill informed public who had watched that Dane wind hands down earlier and it was noted, the lack of film evidence of the front end in the closing stages of the medal race with all the focus being at the back, anyway it is what it is these days, personally I don't think it serves sailing at all despite the fact we came out with a medal and some mejia fest. |
Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 30 Jan 13 at 1:55pm
Anyway, medal races are stupid, especially when they are deliberately sailed on a bit of water that is notoriously flukey and they are weighted so that they count more than the races sailed on the more fair courses.
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Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 30 Jan 13 at 3:33pm
------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: Strangler
Date Posted: 30 Jan 13 at 6:28pm
Stage 1 - 9 races, but the arrows say its all over by race 8. Eh?? As I first read it, they had nicely introduced the 'badminton problem'. ??
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Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 30 Jan 13 at 6:42pm
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http://mocrresults.ussailing.org/2013/RSXM/RSXM.html -
http://mocrresults.ussailing.org/2013/RSXM/RSXM.html
< id="_npwlo" ="applicationpwlo" height="0"> ------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 30 Jan 13 at 6:48pm
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They appear to be scoring 0 for a win in the Laser and Laser Radial. Anyone care to explain?
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Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 30 Jan 13 at 6:50pm
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The Radials/Lasers are using a new experimental scoring system. ------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 30 Jan 13 at 7:06pm
I think it would have been very hard if 24 year old Dutchman Dorian had finished anything other than first with a scoreline of (at the games): ------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 31 Jan 13 at 7:28pm
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Dorian seems to be doing the business so far: http://mocrresults.ussailing.org/2013/RSXM/RSXM.html - http://mocrresults.ussailing.org/2013/RSXM/RSXM.html ------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 01 Feb 13 at 6:46pm
So Dorian never finishes worst than 3rd in a race but finishes 3rd overall:
------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
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Posted By: tick
Date Posted: 01 Feb 13 at 7:14pm
| Well that all looks bollox to me! |
Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 01 Feb 13 at 8:05pm
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I think Dorian agrees with you on twitter: Dorian Rijsselberghe Rape me https://twitter.com/ISAFupdates -
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Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 02 Feb 13 at 11:36am
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I think I also saw a comment somewhere from Nick Dempsey saying it was bollox and he seems to have gained from it at this event.
We should all write to the RYA and express our disapproval and tell the powers that be to stop meddling with a system that is not broken. ------------- Bonnie Lass Contender 1764 |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 02 Feb 13 at 12:46pm
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I bet even the winner thinks it odd. After all, next time it might work against him. Can't feel much like an event win, really.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: SoggyBadger
Date Posted: 02 Feb 13 at 1:37pm
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Assuming that the scoring system was publicised beforehand then the competitors have no grounds for complaint. If I didn't like the SIs for an event I simply wouldn't enter.
------------- Best wishes from deep in the woods SB |
Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 02 Feb 13 at 2:03pm
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Of course the results are 'correct'. However I think it would be right to complain that a regatta is not fair if the person who sails the best does not win. For a good world ranking sailors need to attend at least three of the World Cup events and ideally four. ------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
Posted By: NickM
Date Posted: 02 Feb 13 at 2:41pm
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"After a recommendation from the Olympic
Classes Sub-committee at the 2012 ISAF Annual Conference, Olympic classes have
recommended formats to ISAF for testing. The RS:X Class Associations proposed
format has been trialed throughout the week in Miami." - Taken from the IFAS website. So a) it is (hopefully) just a one off "trial" and b) the RS:X Class Association proposed it themselves! They will no doubt be getting some feedback........ |
Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 02 Feb 13 at 2:53pm
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Yes - fingers crossed it is just a trial! ------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 02 Feb 13 at 4:39pm
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Surely 0 points for a win constitutes an 'old' scoring system...
------------- Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard" Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile" |
Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 05 Feb 13 at 2:16pm
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It looks like ISAF is doing a lot of regatta format testing this year! http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/167842/Kiteboarding-to-test-competition-formats - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/167842/Kiteboarding-to-test-competition-formats ------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |