UK sport funding
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10308
Printed Date: 19 Jul 25 at 10:15am Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: UK sport funding
Posted By: 2547
Subject: UK sport funding
Date Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 6:45pm
Good to see an increase in funding for sailing and para sailing.
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Replies:
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 6:50pm
Shame most of it gets spent on a dubious support team.
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Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 7:19pm
In was way is it dubious? Seems to deliver medals.
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Posted By: SoggyBadger
Date Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 7:22pm
That should keep the useless parasites fat and happy for another four years.
------------- Best wishes from deep in the woods
SB
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Posted By: timeintheboat
Date Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 7:33pm
£24.5m does seem rather a lot for a "minority" Olympic event. Rowing, Cycling, and Athletics get more. Every other sport gets less. Probably for the medals on offer the sailing ones are the most expensive.
------------- Like some other things - sailing is more enjoyable when you do it with someone else
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Posted By: scotsfinn
Date Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 7:44pm
Well the consensus seems give it back .... Glad to see this forum is all about furthering our sport! I vote give it to synchronised swimming or international tiddlywinks 
------------- Largs Sailing Club. D-Zero GBR 57, B14 744
www.blueseaconsultingllp.com
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Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 8:00pm
Originally posted by SoggyBadger
That should keep the useless parasites fat and happy for another four years.
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Eh?
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Posted By: tick
Date Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 8:22pm
I am sure that the RYA look good as they provide super training for the lucky few and improved facilities for clubs but how much do they do to put ordinary Joe's in boats?
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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 8:30pm
Well hopefully none of this which is about elite sport...but it therefore frees more of our subs etc to do more with...how anyone can think an injection of £24.5M is a bad thing for the sport is beyond me...and this money is only about the medals!
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 8:31pm
Originally posted by 2547
In was way is it dubious? Seems to deliver medals. |
Really, the way i saw it the Aussies kicked our arse on our home waters.
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Posted By: scotsfinn
Date Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 8:52pm
Cummon GRF ... It's nearly Christmas look on the bright side. All that money might generate skills enough to understand the V Twin tub and even make it go.
V Twin for 2020 campaign  starts here
------------- Largs Sailing Club. D-Zero GBR 57, B14 744
www.blueseaconsultingllp.com
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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 9:02pm
Don't feed him....
Altho V-Dub as the catamaran mixed event....
On second thoughts what chick would be seen on it?
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Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 9:09pm
Originally posted by iGRF
Originally posted by 2547
In was way is it dubious? Seems to deliver medals. |
Really, the way i saw it the Aussies kicked our arse on our home waters. |
I think you have to look over multiple cycles and all classes to assess a performance programme.
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Posted By: scotsfinn
Date Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 9:17pm
Multiple cycles ... Ideal for he V Twin tub!
I was only joking about synchronised swimming ... But they got £4.3m .... How about best multiple fleet capsize event for 2016 .. Or Synchronised sinking
------------- Largs Sailing Club. D-Zero GBR 57, B14 744
www.blueseaconsultingllp.com
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 10:08pm
My Chum's over here from Aus at the moment, giving it all the we this and we that and marvelling at their coaches and tactical superiority, he's back in lasers funnily enough then telling me about this book I should read by some Aussie called Bethwaite, have you any idea how this all sticks in the craw of any self respecting Brit with a sailing history?
Knowing as I do from bitter experience of all the flaws of those that would tutor and coach our young aspirants and the power they wield with that cash?
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Posted By: SoggyBadger
Date Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 10:43pm
Originally posted by iGRF
My Chum's over here from Aus at the moment, giving it all the we this and we that and marvelling at their coaches and tactical superiority, he's back in lasers funnily enough then telling me about this book I should read by some Aussie called Bethwaite, have you any idea how this all sticks in the craw of any self respecting Brit with a sailing history?
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Easy antidote - show him a bicycle or a cricket bat. Then tell him to eff off behind the bar and serve you a drink 
------------- Best wishes from deep in the woods
SB
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Posted By: Roger
Date Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 11:15pm
We should remember that in 1996 at Atlanta, last Olympics before all the funding arrived, Great Britain won 1 Gold Medal, and a grand total of 15, GB were 36th in the Medal Table (all sports).
Compare that to 2012 with 29 Gold, 65 in total and 3rd in the Medal Table.
Google the cost of Olympic Medals and there is a shed load of data which you interpret in any way you like, and probably come to whatever conclusions you wish, and our Aussie friends seem to make a bit of fuss over it too, they weren't so happy about the swimming remember...
What the Aussie press were saying..... http://www.smh.com.au/olympics/off-the-field/what-price-medals-20120810-23zua.html - http://www.smh.com.au/olympics/off-the-field/what-price-medals-20120810-23zua.html
In 2012 an Olympic medal cost UK sport around £4m each, sailing was around £4.5m with £22.9m funding leading up to the games and 5 medals. You obviously get different figures if you choose to look just at just Gold Medals, but UK Sport sets overall medal targets (or at least asks the sports themselves to) and achievement or failure is based on total medals of any colour.
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Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 18 Dec 12 at 11:18pm
Tell him the only reason you're finishing your sentences with the word 'mate' is to make him feel at home. It doesn't actually mean you are really 'friends'.
Failing that, remind him about the taking folks in shackles for 6 weeks at sea thing... is it any wonder the only ones who survived the journey would have a natural affinity towards ocean sports? They've got sea legs built into their DNA. Hardly much of an accolade when you view it like that.
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Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 19 Dec 12 at 6:52am
As said, this funding goes to the "elite" level in its entirety- campaigning a boat around the world is not a cheap business and commercial sponsorship isn't as generous as the logos everywhere might suggest.
The sportengland money announced on Monday meanwhile goes to the grass roots- you'll see facilities and club boats up and down the country with sportengland logos (and those of the equivalent bodies in Wales and Scotland).
------------- -_
Al
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Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 19 Dec 12 at 7:11am
Even though I live in the south of england, I do hope this means that more <of the great> clubs around the country will get some funds to promote the sport. Apart from a few glorious weeks this year, Weymouth is a) a PITA to get to/from and b) not all that nice, IMO, when you do get there
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 19 Dec 12 at 9:07am
Our club has had sport england grants, for both facilities and for training boats. Whilst I think that some of the coaching appears geared to winning too early (and so people leave the sport when they work out that they won't be the next Ben, rather than enjoying themselves) I'd say the majority of junior and adult coaching given round the country (at clubs who have had grants, very often) is all about learning whilst having fun. I know Whitefriars is, and Nessa seems to have fun at Hunts!
As for top end funding - good on them. Gives all of us someone to look up to, and is probably peanuts compared to the hospital bills for all the fat, lazy people in the country.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: OBC
Date Posted: 19 Dec 12 at 10:24am
Originally posted by getafix
. Apart from a few glorious weeks this year, Weymouth is a) a PITA to get to/from and b) not all that nice, IMO, when you do get there
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It irked me that at Weymouth the Race Cttee. gave in to the demands of TV and spectating and set courses that to me were expressly designed to introduce a lottery element to the racing. Whatever happened to the idea of finding enough sea room to make sure that the land effect was minimised?
As for Weymouth itself, I quite like the place. OK it's not very exotic, but where else in the UK is? Up here we have some of the best sailing waters in the UK, but I'd hardly describe Abersoch/Pwllheli as 'Party Central', and we're at least 2 hours from anywhere.
------------- MR 2404. Finn K468
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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 19 Dec 12 at 11:01am
Congratulations to the RYA. One side-effect of all the Olympic funding is that the RYA has one of the best race-official training programmes in the world. This benefits all racing sailors, even beyond the boundaries of the UK.
However, if the Laser radial medal race had been sailed on a proper race course, Ireland could well have had a medal! Not the RYA's fault - we blame Seb Coe!
As for Weymouth - I have enjoyed my trips to the WPNSA - but I can honestly say that all I have seen of Weymouth has been the traffic jams. Portland is fascinatingly eccentric!
------------- Gordon
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Posted By: Alan Gillard
Date Posted: 19 Dec 12 at 11:25am
It is great news that Sailing continues to get such significant funding from UK Sport, lets hope that the RYA manage the spending of these funds wisely? I personnaly would like to see the RYA make significant effort and actualy use some of this funding to support all these young sailors who complete the squad system at ALL LEVELS. Funding some sort of integration for these 'Trained and talented' youngsters into the Adult classes in this country would be a great start instead of just dumping them. That way the adult classes would benefit from an influx of new highly trained sailors.
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Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 19 Dec 12 at 11:34am
Elite funding is elite funding so don't expect to see this budget do anything for grass roots sailing.
There are different funding sources for that ...
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Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 19 Dec 12 at 11:54am
Originally posted by Alan Gillard
I personnaly would like to see the RYA make significant effort and actualy use some of this funding to support all these young sailors who complete the squad system at ALL LEVELS. |
That's not how the funding works. "Elite sport" funding is about medals. The RYA can't just spend it however they see fit. "Community sport" funding is for the rest of us.
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Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 19 Dec 12 at 11:56am
Originally posted by 2547
Elite funding is elite funding so don't expect to see this budget do anything for grass roots sailing.
There are different funding sources for that ... |
And let's not forget that it's parents who chuck their kids into the RYA vacuum. Not something I plan to do with my little 'uns, not unless they really, really want it. In fact, I doubt I'll even join them to my sailing club unless they want to get involved or show any desire towards competitive sailing.
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Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 19 Dec 12 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by iGRF
My Chum's over here from Aus at the moment, giving it all the we this and we that and marvelling at their coaches and tactical superiority, he's back in lasers funnily enough then telling me about this book I should read by some Aussie called Bethwaite, have you any idea how this all sticks in the craw of any self respecting Brit with a sailing history?
Knowing as I do from bitter experience of all the flaws of those that would tutor and coach our young aspirants and the power they wield with that cash? |
I fear if you can't keep an upstart Aussie in his place you must be losing your touch ...
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Posted By: Paul S
Date Posted: 19 Dec 12 at 2:37pm
Pondmonkey I don't understand 'RYA vacuum'? Accepted don't force kids into sailing but if you're a keen sailor yourself, your kids are naturally likely to want to have a go too? I'm hoping mine will do, would be bloody awkward if he turns out to be a talented footballer!
Ten years ago I took as much of the 'vacuous' coaching as I could and my parents could afford to get me to. Resultingly I learnt in about 5 years what if took my dad half his life to learn through club racing. I know a few good young sailors who avoided the RYA systems through their parents misgivingsbut I do not understand it. The junior squads were always great fun. The youth squads were much more performance orientated as you'd expect but still good weekends away. I'm grateful to the RYA for making it possible and have no qualms whatsoever that I was amongst many used as essentially cannon fodder to develop the Giles Scotts of today! There were no secrets made at any point that medalists were the end goal. After all if any of us were more talented or motivated it could well have been us instead!
What I'm saying is this elite squad funding has created probably thousands of decent club/national level sailors which can only be good for the progression of the sport. At some point at least half will buy boats and join clubs as adults.
Edit. Just realised it was more like 13 years ago.....
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Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 19 Dec 12 at 3:21pm
RYA vacuum... kids disappear into it. How many stay in the sport? How many might have stayed in it if they'd focused more on club level sailing? I dunno, I'd like to think more. Glad you enjoyed your experiences though; there's no one answer. My point is simple- the funding is to pay for the performance programme and it's up to us to elect whether we dump our kids into it, or whether we finance their introduction to sailing through other avenues. (I don't expect 'funding' to pay for my kids to get introduced to sailing, I guess that makes me 'elitist')
As for my own kids, no I won't be pushing them into any form of racing or structured competition. I'd rather they developed a natural love for messing around in boats, boards, canoes etc; if one of those leads towards a racing or competitive desire, then so be it, I will support it, but it will not be the 'end game' of any watersport opportunities I present.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 19 Dec 12 at 4:06pm
My kids have been around the club since they were born, and in boats since very shortly after. One has got the racing bug, the other prefers paddling her 6 foot long canoe and playing around on the shore. The racy one is now pushing to do Feva training outside of the club, so it really does depend on the kid, and long may it. One size doesn't fit all, but then there are as many ways to get kids on the water as there are kids. If RYA squads suit some, then good! Looks like Paul S had an experience that will set him up for life.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 19 Dec 12 at 8:14pm
Originally posted by 2547
Originally posted by iGRF
My Chum's over here from Aus at the moment, giving it all the we this and we that and marvelling at their coaches and tactical superiority, he's back in lasers funnily enough then telling me about this book I should read by some Aussie called Bethwaite, have you any idea how this all sticks in the craw of any self respecting Brit with a sailing history?
Knowing as I do from bitter experience of all the flaws of those that would tutor and coach our young aspirants and the power they wield with that cash? |
I fear if you can't keep an upstart Aussie in his place you must be losing your touch ... |
He's a bloody Brit as I had to keep reminding him, I haven't seen him in ten years and the last time we met I wasn't exactly myself, recovering from extreme head trauma, so we had a lot to catch up, he was a dinghy sailor who became a racing windsurfer after we met when he was an Apprentice sailmaker, worked for me for a bit before getting head hunted by Gaastra then he ended up in Aus, interesting he's now ended up in Lasers, reckons there's 45 - 50 on a Sunday in Sydney Harbour most weeks.
He's right about the coaching though they do concentrate more on tactics than we do, our lot its about equipment, nutrition, psychobabble, core fitness, all essential but pretty useless if you don't have the Tactics, which was clearly demonstrated that they don't by some of the stupid displays witnessed at Weymouth.
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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 19 Dec 12 at 8:41pm
Tactics - that's what you learn when team racing isn't it? Or are you saying that our precious and precocious elite sailors aren't mixing it with the hoi poloi on the team racing circui? Probably too busy "training"!
------------- Gordon
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 19 Dec 12 at 8:49pm
Something you can never really be certain about is it not, you never really know if someone you''re watching or competing against did what they did by luck, circumstance or design.
But I definitely came to the conclusion there were some elementary mistakes made at Weymouth (I watched literally every race broadcast) by folk who really ought to know better after all the money and resources thrown at them.
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Posted By: Mark Antony
Date Posted: 19 Dec 12 at 11:32pm
Originally posted by blueboy
Originally posted by Alan Gillard
I personally would like to see the RYA make significant effort and actually use some of this funding to support all these young sailors who complete the squad system at ALL LEVELS. |
That's not how the funding works. "Elite sport" funding is about medals. The RYA can't just spend it however they see fit. "Community sport" funding is for the rest of us.
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Just checking to ask whether the sport England legacy funding (£9.3M) is additional to the UK sport £24,515,072?
http://www.sportengland.org/funding/ngb_investment/whole_sport_plans_2013-17/sailing.aspx
One of the best steps forwards for sailing would be to address Alan's point of keeping the good/great/excellent sailors who fall out of the squad system, having not met the 'exceptional' level the RYA (understandably) require for the elite few retained to go on as medal prospects.
All the "good/great/excellent" sailors have sailing skills and ability for which it's a great waste to lose.
The RYA's intention is clear: "The Royal Yachting Association has a proven track
record of getting talented sailors through the ranks and we are
pleased that it will continue this work with this plan."
I fully support the squad system on the basis that it very successfully does what it's there to do. I'm interested in questioning whether there's any options for building on and benefiting from this investment. In my view what's needed is support for the 'waste product' from this process. And given the investment into the training, on a strict 'business plan' basis, it does seem like a missed opportunity to make the funding work more efficiently to the general benifit of sailing, through the youth sailors turning out at local clubs and in classes outside the narrow RYA supported list.
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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 19 Dec 12 at 11:35pm
Originally posted by pondmonkey
RYA vacuum... kids disappear into it. How many stay in the sport? How many might have stayed in it if they'd focused more on club level sailing? I dunno, I'd like to think more. Glad you enjoyed your experiences though; there's no one answer. My point is simple- the funding is to pay for the performance programme and it's up to us to elect whether we dump our kids into it, or whether we finance their introduction to sailing through other avenues. (I don't expect 'funding' to pay for my kids to get introduced to sailing, I guess that makes me 'elitist')
As for my own kids, no I won't be pushing them into any form of racing or structured competition. I'd rather they developed a natural love for messing around in boats, boards, canoes etc; if one of those leads towards a racing or competitive desire, then so be it, I will support it, but it will not be the 'end game' of any watersport opportunities I present. |
I get what you're saying...but the thing that has always struck me about this knock the squad thing is the absence of a control group....how many of them would have sialed for as long were they not in the squad....and how many would have continued in an alternative sport?
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Posted By: tick
Date Posted: 20 Dec 12 at 8:56am
I am glad that so many comments are reflecting my long held views about the squad system.
Courtesy of Sport England we now have electricity, very nice, and it is meant to encourage extra participation. Next year If we continue to operate our training programe we could find ourselves with RYA money for boats again intended to encourage activity. The electricity makes our lives much more comfortable but new members do not flock to us because we have it. Additional training facilities are again very jolly but largely service a continuous stream of "professional" trainees both children, being worked through all the local training (golf, tennis etc.) and adults who like the idea of drifting on sunlit waters. Few of these "trainees" remain with the club. Perhaps money would be better spent encouraging participation in other ways and to a wider range of people.
I realise that I am a dinosaur but I was never trained in anything, what I ever did was for enthusiasim. This never worked regarding sailing but there are other things I am not bad at.
How about an advertised "Try sailing programe" rather than hoping that customers just drift in and then find the improved facilities.
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Posted By: Paul S
Date Posted: 20 Dec 12 at 11:02am
I think that an advertised try sailing program would spiral into exactly the sort of RYA training/teaching/coaching that is being discussed. I'm not sure if you mean for members to take joe public out for a spin in their boats or some such but I think the liability implications are likely to preclude something so simple. I wouldn't be happy taking out anyone I didn't know very well in one of my own or anyone elses boat. Colleagues and friends wouldn't look to sue me if they hurt themselves. It would be a different matter if I was using my instructor tick on a recognised course (even a try sailing one) at an RYA recognised centre. Most sailing clubs qualify for this now although I'm not sure whether that is a result of elite funding trickling down.
I think the funding throughout the sport is currently at an outstanding level given the economic climate. At the end of the day dinghies are an expensive game. Just because it can be done very cheaply doesn't change that those of us doing it cheaply are probably expending the same percentage of our disposable income as a guy unwrapping a brand new International14 or 505. It's up to the private sector these days to persuade the 'waste product' from the squads that there are boats worth moving into with their own cash. RS being the standout performer, although plenty of class associations are trying hard.
Regarding retention, when I started racing, the Topper squad was 12 people and there were about 60 boats at Northampton winter selection. Now I believe each zone squad is over 20 boats, the national squad is around about 40 boats, theres a intermediate squad, a 4.2 feeder rig for the topper and nationals entries are nearly 300! Coupled with a high turnover as kids outgrow the boat thats a lot of very capable sailing adults in the future. Surely the percentage retained is irrelevant I doubt it'll change from the percentage retained from exclusively club sailors.
Finally regarding a control group, university sailing clubs introduce a LOT of people to sailing as young adults who have never tried it before usually using a 'try sailing' initiative, it's free, its simpler than it ever could be in the real world, it's legally covered and these days it's always competent ex squaddies doing the teaching. In my experience no matter how windy the test sail was no matter how much people claimed to love it at the time the retention rate from this sort of introduction was always pretty atrocious!
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Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 20 Dec 12 at 11:18am
Originally posted by iGRF
He's right about the coaching though they do concentrate more on tactics than we do, . |
How on earth would a random ex-pat from Aus have any knowledge of the relative focus on tactics in the GBR training programme? ... 
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 20 Dec 12 at 11:37am
That Ben chap - no clue about tactics at all. Bring him to Whitefriars and I'll sail rings round him in my Lightning...
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 20 Dec 12 at 11:55am
Originally posted by Rupert
That Ben chap - no clue about tactics at all.
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All due respect and all, but that 'Ben Chap' got where he is the same way I did in my day, kinetics and dirty tricks.
Stuff nobody teaches you, but you have to do if you are to survive at the very top for any time.
However he sailed like sh*t, admits it himself now, his starts and first beat were off, some of his course choices were poor and only when he got mad did he pull himself back and that was thanks to his mate luffing sharply enough at the right time, but he's not the case to point, he's the only guy really who salvaged our National Sailing pride and all credit to him a bloody good competition sailor, arguably the best we've produced, but wether that's due to the lack of competition surrounding him these days, how would he have stacked up in the Laurie Smith, Eddie Warden Owen era with pumping and Kinetics outlawed, I wonder.
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Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 20 Dec 12 at 1:33pm
dear god you lot are so ill informed about what the RYA do and how squads work and basically grass roots sailing as a whole it beggars belief.
1. There is a massive drop off rate in sailing of sailors in the 14 -25 age range. This is nothing to do with having been spat out by a squad. These kids were never in a squad of any kind. The squads are either regional or national and are tiny - around 20 - 30 members per squad so a tiny percentage of our youth sailors. From that you can conclude that most kids simply stop sailing, for reasons we can only hope to guess at.
You could even surmise that actually being in a squad keeps some kids in sailing because otherwise, with their talent, dedication, whatver, going untapped and unrecognised, they would have lost interest and gone off elsewhere - often the end result of big fish small pond syndrome. The squads offer a place to go, do some racing against fresh talent, get trained, learn stuff. So they stay for a while before the inevitable drop off - they quit sailing and they would have quit anyway, possbly sooner had they not been in a squad. It's part of growing up.
2. There has been and continues to be money available for grass roots training for adults and clubs. Has you club hosted any of the rya funding workshops? has anyone from your club been to a workshop on how to market itself, encourage more racers, use social media, become more energy efficient? Has it asked its RDO for money to fund DI training, or buy boats, or kit? or repair the club house? There have been workshops running all winter FREE to representatives from all clubs. There is money available for training, for all sorts of things. Most clubs just don't take up the offers. Your rdo will come visit your club, work out what you need, help fill in the forms. But most people don't even know this is going on because someone somewhere in the club hierarchy can't be bothered to answer the email.
As for you guys, it seems it's so much easier to criticise a system which you know nothing about yet which actually works. God knows what you'd all be sailing had we won fewer medals!
------------- the same, but different...
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 20 Dec 12 at 1:54pm
Originally posted by winging it
dear god you lot are so ill informed about what the RYA do and how squads work and basically grass roots sailing as a whole it beggars belief.
1. There is a massive drop off rate in sailing of sailors in the 14 -25 age range. ......
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I think a lot of that is kids growing up, breaking away from their parents, becoming independent. Quite a few come back at some point, or buy a yacht in middle age.
As for funding outside the Olympic mill, one of my clubs has won a Sport England Grant, the other has been knocked back. Our local Sea Scouts seem to access a fair amount. There is money out there from many sources. But it is no substitute for people who are committed to making things happen.
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Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 20 Dec 12 at 2:10pm
Originally posted by winging it
1. There is a massive drop off rate in sailing of sailors in the 14 -25 age range. This is nothing to do with having been spat out by a squad. These kids were never in a squad of any kind. The squads are either regional or national and are tiny - around 20 - 30 members per squad so a tiny percentage of our youth sailors. From that you can conclude that most kids simply stop sailing, for reasons we can only hope to guess at.
You could even surmise that actually being in a squad keeps some kids in sailing because otherwise, with their talent, dedication, whatver, going untapped and unrecognised, they would have lost interest and gone off elsewhere - often the end result of big fish small pond syndrome. The squads offer a place to go, do some racing against fresh talent, get trained, learn stuff. So they stay for a while before the inevitable drop off - they quit sailing and they would have quit anyway, possbly sooner had they not been in a squad. It's part of growing up.
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maybe by fractionating a club youth sailing scene into 'squad or not', doesn't help retain youth sailing- it certainly doesn't help a 'family club activity' continue when the parent stops their own sailing (or helping out down the club) in favour of trolly dollying, driving and paying a larger bill at the end of the weekend after accommodation, food and petrol just so one family member can 'go sailing' - something they used to do as a family in part of a local community. It's hardly worth the sacrifice for the 85% of squaddies who really won't progress beyond 'cannon fodder' is it?
Any way I'm not criticising the RYA funding, or indeed this programme of excellence- whatever the consequence. I just highlighting it's up to us as adults to decide if we put our kids into it or not. I don't think I will, unless they really want to that is.
And for what it's worth, kids probably just dump sailing 'cos it pretty dull compared to other things like kitesurfing, beer and fanny....
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Posted By: rogerd
Date Posted: 20 Dec 12 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by pondmonkey
And for what it's worth, kids probably just dump sailing 'cos it pretty dull compared to other things like kitesurfing, beer and fanny.... |
I know its a long time ago and my memory may be tainted by age and fond memories of long hot summers but you have just about summed it up.
No kitesurfing in my day but I sold my boat to buy an old mini and spent the summer driving round the IOW getting p*ssed and the other.
Then I got involved in farming and then family and twenty five years later took up sailing again on a local puddle with an old family boat. Not much disposable income so had to take what boat was available(which leads to another thread)
I think as long as the kids( I hate that word makes me think of small goats) dont get put off then many will return later to sail on puddles or if they are lucky on the sea and hopefully introduce their children to the sport.
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Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 20 Dec 12 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by winging it
dear god you lot are so ill informed about what the RYA do and how squads work and basically grass roots sailing as a whole it beggars belief.
1. There is a massive drop off rate in sailing of sailors in the 14 -25 age range. This is nothing to do with having been spat out by a squad. These kids were never in a squad of any kind. The squads are either regional or national and are tiny - around 20 - 30 members per squad so a tiny percentage of our youth sailors. From that you can conclude that most kids simply stop sailing, for reasons we can only hope to guess at.
You could even surmise that actually being in a squad keeps some kids in sailing because otherwise, with their talent, dedication, whatver, going untapped and unrecognised, they would have lost interest and gone off elsewhere - often the end result of big fish small pond syndrome. The squads offer a place to go, do some racing against fresh talent, get trained, learn stuff. So they stay for a while before the inevitable drop off - they quit sailing and they would have quit anyway, possbly sooner had they not been in a squad. It's part of growing up.
2. There has been and continues to be money available for grass roots training for adults and clubs. Has you club hosted any of the rya funding workshops? has anyone from your club been to a workshop on how to market itself, encourage more racers, use social media, become more energy efficient? Has it asked its RDO for money to fund DI training, or buy boats, or kit? or repair the club house? There have been workshops running all winter FREE to representatives from all clubs. There is money available for training, for all sorts of things. Most clubs just don't take up the offers. Your rdo will come visit your club, work out what you need, help fill in the forms. But most people don't even know this is going on because someone somewhere in the club hierarchy can't be bothered to answer the email.
As for you guys, it seems it's so much easier to criticise a system which you know nothing about yet which actually works. God knows what you'd all be sailing had we won fewer medals!
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+1, agree that squads keep kids in sailing, not the other way round. Also agree that squads are tiny and not the place where the vast majority of 14-25 olds are 'lost' from. There are many, many factors in 14-25s moving away from sailing, I'd imagine that most of them break down to one of three things, or a mix of them; money, time, location. Personally I got my sailing fix by racing on other peoples yachts 18-26 because a) I couldn't afford a dinghy and b) the dinghy sailing at uni (in those days, no idea what its' like now) was more like a squad system and not inclusive of people outside of the 'first team'. As it turns out, this was a brilliant learning experience and great fun socially too. I'm not sure I'd ever want to actually own a racing yacht, but fair play to those who do, and take kids/youngsters on to be part of the crew. Going to Cowes, Cork, RORC & JOG racing and the Hamble/Warsash series are absolutely excellent in their way, particularly if you're crewing rather than financing that new #1 genoa !! When I'd been working a while, owned something to live in and could afford a car, then next obvious step, for me, was buying a dinghy - not looked back. Point of this is that the money coming into sailing will go much further in getting people sailing than it will in keeping people sailing, that is down to the individuals themselves mostly, but also the kind of non-sailing 'services' or facilities on offer at the clubs. Some would snigger at the need for WiFi access at their sailing club or having a TV room or table-tennis/pool table, but actually, these are the kind of things I see as being just as atractive to 14-25's as the sailing area and classes on offer/supported at any given club. I see most of the teens and early 20's at clubs I go to spending just as much time off the water at the club as on it - if you don't make it interesting or somewhere decent to hang out - they'll just go off somewhere else. The focus purely on who and how many coaches, RIBS, boats & courses etc you can offer is good, but also, IMO, slightly missing the point.
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Posted By: ex laser
Date Posted: 20 Dec 12 at 2:45pm
Originally posted by winging it
dear god you lot are so ill informed about what the RYA do and how squads work and basically grass roots sailing as a whole it beggars belief.
1. There is a massive drop off rate in sailing of sailors in the 14 -25 age range. This is nothing to do with having been spat out by a squad. These kids were never in a squad of any kind. The squads are either regional or national and are tiny - around 20 - 30 members per squad so a tiny percentage of our youth sailors. From that you can conclude that most kids simply stop sailing, for reasons we can only hope to guess at.
You could even surmise that actually being in a squad keeps some kids in sailing because otherwise, with their talent, dedication, whatver, going untapped and unrecognised, they would have lost interest and gone off elsewhere - often the end result of big fish small pond syndrome. The squads offer a place to go, do some racing against fresh talent, get trained, learn stuff. So they stay for a while before the inevitable drop off - they quit sailing and they would have quit anyway, possbly sooner had they not been in a squad. It's part of growing up.
2. There has been and continues to be money available for grass roots training for adults and clubs. Has you club hosted any of the rya funding workshops? has anyone from your club been to a workshop on how to market itself, encourage more racers, use social media, become more energy efficient? Has it asked its RDO for money to fund DI training, or buy boats, or kit? or repair the club house? There have been workshops running all winter FREE to representatives from all clubs. There is money available for training, for all sorts of things. Most clubs just don't take up the offers. Your rdo will come visit your club, work out what you need, help fill in the forms. But most people don't even know this is going on because someone somewhere in the club hierarchy can't be bothered to answer the email.
As for you guys, it seems it's so much easier to criticise a system which you know nothing about yet which actually works. God knows what you'd all be sailing had we won fewer medals!
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+2                  
also it seems to me that most of the people on the forum that moan most about the state of kids training or the state of clubs in general do very little for the clubs they are members of. all they want to do is, turn up and sail and then go home and moan about it on here.
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Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 20 Dec 12 at 2:55pm
James, we have six squaddies in our little family friendly club. When they aren't at squad stuff they turn up at 8am every Sunday to provide and take part in training for the non squad sailors. Our system (within the club) encourages them to pass on their skills and we reward them with cheap, regular training when they do so. Eg cheap first aid, race coach, powerboat, and DI courses. Plus of course they get really good feedback from their mates for whom they become great role models. It's all about how you manage it.
------------- the same, but different...
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Posted By: Pierre
Date Posted: 20 Dec 12 at 2:59pm
God, I feel I should go to the naughty step, and I haven't even said anything.....
Now boys and girls, step away from the screen and get involved.
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Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 20 Dec 12 at 3:09pm
Originally posted by winging it
James, we have six squaddies in our little family friendly club. When they aren't at squad stuff they turn up at 8am every Sunday to provide and take part in training for the non squad sailors. Our system (within the club) encourages them to pass on their skills and we reward them with cheap, regular training when they do so. Eg cheap first aid, race coach, powerboat, and DI courses. Plus of course they get really good feedback from their mates for whom they become great role models. It's all about how you manage it.
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sounds good... I heard the majority of our squad sailors fecked off to Rutland, so I guess yep, it's how you manage it.
Not that I really care like I used to, they'd have probably quit when when they went to uni a couple of year later anyway. As I said, I have no intention to use the system as a parent but acknowledge for a performance programme it's pretty feckin' effective at getting the medals. So keep this O/T- good on the RYA, they are delivering against the funding criteria. If you don't like the criteria, take it up with the Dept for Culture, Media & Sport, or ignore it and do your own thing.
Frankly I am now old enough to sit in the camp of folk that say 'they'll come back when they're older' and if we're collectively wrong or have the return rate a tad squiffy, SFW... there's still plenty of people to sail with.
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Posted By: rogerd
Date Posted: 20 Dec 12 at 3:28pm
Originally posted by Pierre
God, I feel I should go to the naughty step, and I haven't even said anything.....
Now boys and girls, step away from the screen and get involved. |
Not like you to sit on the fence.... go on say it you know you want to!
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 20 Dec 12 at 3:58pm
Originally posted by Pierre
God, I feel I should go to the naughty step, and I haven't even said anything..... |
Pierre, you're always welcome to join me here, I'v been on it that long I've turned it into a naughty patio, complete with the virtual bodies of Wood botherers, Cherub sailors and Laser kids buried under it.
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Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 20 Dec 12 at 4:49pm
I'm thinking of crawling under a rock near the patio tbh. I don't get what the 'problem' is.
The RYA get funding to channel into youth development with primary function of winning medals. It boosts country morale... along with Bradley Wiggins's sideburns.
The RYA deliver on this; good oh, safe set of hands that Sparky fella. And thankfully due to a decent internet & DTV service, we've finally been able to enjoy watching it and writing off two weeks of productivity glued to pixelated images and Mark Jardine's twitter feed. It's given us lots to discuss and joke about- even Ben Ainslie's alleged lack of tactical awareness... the bar has been reset for sailing fora bullsh*t, nice one Grumpf
well done RYA. well done Ben Ainslie et al. Well done Grumpf.
Now then, pray tell me why tax payer's money should fund grassroots sailing so little Tabitha and cousin Johnny have a taxpayer funded hot shower installed? Really, folks... welcome to a 1st World issue.
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Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 20 Dec 12 at 5:13pm
Originally posted by pondmonkey
Now then, pray tell me why tax payer's money should fund grassroots sailing so little Tabitha and cousin Johnny have a taxpayer funded hot shower installed? Really, folks... welcome to a 1st World issue.
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Totally agree. A lot of the medal winning type money in fact comes from the public hopelessly lashing out on scratch cards and the like. For the rest, the government has said it will not fund people's hobbies any more, which is fair enough. Most of the schemes I mentioned earlier will still exist in this funding round, but if your club hasn't taken interest by now, it may be too late as there is belt tightening going on everywhere.
------------- the same, but different...
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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 20 Dec 12 at 6:08pm
The taxpayer should fund grassroots sport because it is cheaper to do so than to fund medical treatment for the inactive and the unfit... prevention rather than cure.
It is especially important to fund children's and youth sport to establish good habits that will continue in later life.
------------- Gordon
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Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 20 Dec 12 at 6:19pm
Actually I think you'd find that government intervention isn't needed; nature and society will take care of itself with current lifestyle trends in play- it'll help mitigate the pension timebomb too if we all check out a bit earlier.
If we must have Government investment in sport, then truthfully sailing a) costs too much to offer reasonable ROI and b) probably wouldn't hit medical/sports science guidelines for calorific burn per hour to justify the investment (on health grounds alone)
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Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 20 Dec 12 at 6:40pm
Originally posted by pondmonkey
And for what it's worth, kids probably just dump sailing 'cos it pretty dull compared to other things like kitesurfing, beer and fanny....
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Memories are fading a bit Jimbo, but oh how times have changed. As as a spotty adolescent in the early 70s I recall that the cheap and plentiful supply of 2 and 3 were the primary reason for joining a sailing club. The boats were OK too.
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Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 20 Dec 12 at 6:43pm
Cheap fanny hey? My you do paint a delightful picture of virtue for sailing girls of the 70's.... oddly enough the boats haven't changed that much though have they?
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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 20 Dec 12 at 8:33pm
Originally posted by iGRF
[QUOTE=2547]
He's a bloody Brit as I had to keep reminding him, I haven't seen him in ten years and the last time we met I wasn't exactly myself, recovering from extreme head trauma, so we had a lot to catch up, he was a dinghy sailor who became a racing windsurfer after we met when he was an Apprentice sailmaker, worked for me for a bit before getting head hunted by Gaastra then he ended up in Aus, interesting he's now ended up in Lasers, reckons there's 45 - 50 on a Sunday in Sydney Harbour most weeks.
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45-50 Lasers on a Sunday in Sydney Harbour? We've had 52 race so far this year in our club alone (not all at once, though), and there's four other fleets within 6km, plus another 10 fleets in other parts of the city. Typical fields for most clubs on an average weekend would be from 6 to 32 boats.
It's interesting to see how a strong scene can evolve, and "evolve" would be the operative word as there is no over-arching scheme or organisation.
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Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 20 Dec 12 at 8:44pm
Originally posted by pondmonkey
Now then, pray tell me why tax payer's money should fund grassroots sailing so little Tabitha and cousin Johnny have a taxpayer funded hot shower installed? Really, folks... welcome to a 1st World issue.
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Don't even get me half started.... I am 1000% in favour of this, UK tax money being spent in this country... much rather 'Johnny' in Britain than 'Johnny foreigner', sick and tired of "foreign aid" that just ends up in swiss bank accounts or child soldiers hands.....
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Posted By: Xpletive
Date Posted: 20 Dec 12 at 9:37pm
I'm happy for UK Sport to be given as much money as they can beg, but not from me, not from the taxpayer, not from the Exchequer. Let the Lottery suckers pay if they want - suits me. At least they contribute voluntarily.
In contrast, as a mere pleb, I will continue to meet the annual costs of my chosen sports, inflated as they are by various taxes imposed on clubs by central government, without any handouts, while I work full time into my 64th year, having seen no benefit in all that time ever accrue to an ordinary club member from any of these sporting jamborees, which seem only to provide a raison d'etre for the few who have to be supported by the many while they enjoy themselves.
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Posted By: SoggyBadger
Date Posted: 20 Dec 12 at 10:15pm
Well said Xpletive
------------- Best wishes from deep in the woods
SB
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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 22 Dec 12 at 12:20am
To get another view on funding, squads and youth drop-out rates, one could look at the biggest Skiff club in the world.
The figures and facilities are interesting - $20 million p.a. (13 million pounds) in takings from the bar and poker machine use by 28,000 members translates into benefits like free boat storage; effectively free membership; subsidies for championships; arranging sponsorship; free beer and BBQ after every race; free races; and $500,000 p.a. other funding for sailing, including paying each 16 Foot Skiff $200 just for finishing a weekly club race, $475 for a personal handicap win in a weekly club race, and an EXTRA $10,000 prizemoney for the annual club championship and personal handicap points series. Kids are NOT pushed into squads (as that would keep them from 16 Foot Skiffs, which is what the club is all about) but Olympians are heavily supported (one got a club-owned waterfront house rent-free, I believe).
And all that largesse is centred on maintaining the fleet of 21 16 Foot Skiffs. The feeder classes (and feeding the 16s is what they are expressly for) comprise 25 29ers and Cherubs, a dozen Lasers, and 60 junior boats.
So even with enormous amounts of funding support, an ideal sailing environment (warm, open water and good winds) and high performance boats that you can (literally) get for free, you end up with about 60 "senior" sailors out of a production line of about 140 juniors at any one time. Given that many of the 60 senior sailors have been in the class for many years while the juniors are churning through, it seems that the youth/young adult dropout rate is very high even when cash, slower boats and squads aren't an issue.
Dropout is a general problem for sports, isn't it? As Sport England says "47% of secondary aged young people are a member of a ‘sports club’ but that this drops to 17% amongst 16 to 19 year olds and then continues to decrease as people get older."
Is the drop out any worse in sailing, especially when one allows for the fact that so many of us switch to yachts in young adult years?
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