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Harken....

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10139
Printed Date: 19 Jul 25 at 10:17am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Harken....
Posted By: winging it
Subject: Harken....
Date Posted: 30 Nov 12 at 10:59am
.....not coming to the London Boat show:

http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?llr=cneaptcab&v=001J8BvtJGIt7sIMkclSfLxgdEzq3Nl6crtHZKLk_b9_ywmRGWKuUVpyqWUGZ573u87nwImaeQqS0F3QkFi8zgOdVk7kWQYUJIe1nz1pGhFQjA%3D - Harken news

who will be next to pull out, will the show survive?

I wonder even if such a big glitzy show still has a realistic place in the recession hit world?


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the same, but different...




Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 30 Nov 12 at 11:12am
Ah yes, but which is in trouble, the Boat Show, or Harken UK, or neither, or both.

The London Boat Show has survived a lot of recessions, but times do seem to be changing. The old thing of collecting brochures and seeing what's new seems a lot less relevant now you can see full up to date catalogues on your PC every day.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 30 Nov 12 at 11:55am
We're at the London Boat Show...

..only it's the London Bike Show now and you get two for the price of one, no three if you count the extreme ramblers in the Outdoor bit, watch out for beardie thousand yard stares..


Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 30 Nov 12 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by JimC

Ah yes, but which is in trouble, the Boat Show, or Harken UK, or neither, or both.

The London Boat Show has survived a lot of recessions, but times do seem to be changing. The old thing of collecting brochures and seeing what's new seems a lot less relevant now you can see full up to date catalogues on your PC every day.
 
The other thing it used to be good for was picking up bin end kit at sale prices. But that's dried up, as it's far cheaper to run a warehouse somewhere and stick it all up on t'internet.
 
e.g. (no connection, just a satisfied customer)
http://www.wetsuitoutlet.co.uk/ - http://www.wetsuitoutlet.co.uk/
 


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 30 Nov 12 at 12:09pm
It's difficult to order that Guiness and the ambience that their stand creates over the internet.


Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 30 Nov 12 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by winging it

.....not coming to the London Boat show:

http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?llr=cneaptcab&v=001J8BvtJGIt7sIMkclSfLxgdEzq3Nl6crtHZKLk_b9_ywmRGWKuUVpyqWUGZ573u87nwImaeQqS0F3QkFi8zgOdVk7kWQYUJIe1nz1pGhFQjA%3D - Harken news

who will be next to pull out, will the show survive?

I wonder even if such a big glitzy show still has a realistic place in the recession hit world?

Well as a long term. very happy Harken customer I'm pleased to see they won't be wasting their hard-earned profits in a pop-up shop at the LBS.  If you've ever dealt with the Harken team direct, maybe for technical advice pre-sale, they are frankly awesome, don't over sell and find a solution that really works for your needs.  Continued investment in direct support, or product training via their retailing channels, is imho, a far better move for them.

I'm sure the LBS will survive, but the market dynamic has been changing for some time.  As an actual sailboat owner I accept that it no longer tries to justify itself to folks like me. I'm more than happy to leave it to the gin palace tourists from Russia who juxtapose so nicely with the eclectic mix of 'outdoor types' that have just come off the train from the Birmingham Caravan and Camping Show.    

I will miss the Guinness though... 


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Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 30 Nov 12 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by iGRF

We're at the London Boat Show...

..only it's the London Bike Show now and you get two for the price of one, no three if you count the extreme ramblers in the Outdoor bit, watch out for beardie thousand yard stares..
The only reason those shows have been able to move in is the massive reduction in floor space for the boat show itself, and (so I'm told) a fair reduction in size for the Bike Show as well.
 
First time I went to the boat Show was only six years ago; back then it was the whole of both the North and South hall (before the new extension), the outside Marina was the entire length (apart from the bit taken up by the RN) and the outside concourse was covered in dinghies.


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-_
Al


Posted By: Mister Nick
Date Posted: 30 Nov 12 at 3:19pm
I can see why, it seems to be fairly sh*t from a sailors point of view nowadays. I've been for the last 3 years and been disappointed for the last 2. It was effectively just a load of shops charging full price for everything, with lots of huge gin palaces that I didn't want to see manned by bored, rude salesmen and a few random bits of tat thrown in on top. I can see people going to meet up with friends at the Guinness stand and whatever or maybe if you planned to see something specific (I went last year to look at the J80 on Key Yachting's stand) but apart from that it seems kind of pointless. I think that it's being aimed at the general public and tourists who want a spectacle, not boaty people. Why would Harken bother advertising their gear to people who don't even know what a ratchet block is or what a winch looks like?


Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 30 Nov 12 at 6:10pm
The London boat show is a lifestyle show for the super rich who want a Sunseeker, Oyster or Princess ... it has little relevance to small (less than 50 ft) boat sailors so I'm not surprised Harken are not bothering. The costs must be huge.
 
I bet they still go to Southampton and The Dinghy Show, thiese are the key places for small boats sailors.


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 30 Nov 12 at 6:16pm
TBH, the LOndon Boat Show is more of a trade show. A lot of the suppliers are not very interested in people who only want to buy one of something, unless its an Oyster 56.


Posted By: Roger
Date Posted: 30 Nov 12 at 8:28pm

Rate card link below, average around £160/sqm, and thats just for the floor space so lots of extras to add to that....

http://www.londonboatshow.com/pdf/17974%20LBS%20Exhibitor%20Sales%20Form%20Insert%20V2%20-%20Copy.pdf

However brochure seems to suggest there may be or have been some discounts available, and we are well past the final payment date for exhibitors now.....

http://www.londonboatshow.com/pdf/LBS13%20Sales%20Brochurekit.pdf

Shows in many industries seem less well attended currently, I'm guessing much of the marketing/advertising budget is being spent elsewhere if at all.




Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 30 Nov 12 at 11:16pm

Originally posted by RS400atC

TBH, the LOndon Boat Show is more of a trade show. A lot of the suppliers are not very interested in people who only want to buy one of something, unless its an Oyster 56.

And I'd bet that in the past Harken were there more as a trade supplier with a "pop-up shop" stand for punters as a sideline- that they aren't going, like the big volume dinghy suppliers (who sell to beach clubs and training centres) and even yacht builders (who sell to flotilla operators) speaks volumes about both the industry and the show.



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-_
Al


Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 01 Dec 12 at 8:27am
The stand cost is only a part of it!  Add travel, logistics, accomodation, subsistence etc which probably represents at least 50% of the cost.  Another cost, that can't be calculated, includes taking a significant number of key staff away from the day to day business.  It's great to fly the flag but with Harken, as one of the world leaders in their field, I would dare to suggest that it's probably unnecessary for them to be at the show.  Last time I was there it was poorly attended and most visitors were tourists on a day out and they would have had no intention of buying anything Harken, unless they move into running a burger bar or something similar Stern Smile

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Rodney Cobb
Suntouched Sailboats Limited
http://www.suntouched.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.suntouched.co.uk
[EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk


Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 01 Dec 12 at 9:14am
Rodney is spot on, trade shows are expensive. 

I won't be bothering with excel. 


Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 01 Dec 12 at 9:50am
A Harken burger... I'll bet it would be awesome...

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Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard"
Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch"
Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air"
Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"


Posted By: Andy Ash-Vie
Date Posted: 01 Dec 12 at 10:22am
It is all about getting yer bang for yer buck. It takes us 100 working days and £40k to do LBS properly. So instead we are taking that resource and doing a whole load more yacht club talks, more cruising rallies, more open days, more event sponsorship. Basically spreading our marketing out over a much wider base in a more direct fashion. (Drop us a line if you have an idea that might fit with that concept.)

We are also doing another 18 days of new Industrial Shows, 10 days at Southampton and of course we will be at the Dinghy Show. It is full speed ahead!

Andy (MD Harken UK)


Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 01 Dec 12 at 11:13am
Well there we have it from the horses mouth ...

I applaud Harken for being able to think different and put together a plan that I am sure will benefit the active grass roots sailors. I have noted they seem to sponsor quite a few events. 


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 01 Dec 12 at 1:01pm
The problem all these Dinghy Industry types are missing by turning their marketing budget inwards to naval gaze, is the promotion that shows like the LBS give the activity to a wider audience. It was a huge mistake we made in the Windsurfing Industry pulling out.

So right now they all rely on holiday companies attracting punters to take up sailing polyethylene tubs which imv doesn't deliver what we all regard as the dinghy sailing performance, but better than nothing, however taken to it's conclusion, without the sport boat attendance very soon the whole show will close, then there will be nowhere for the holiday companies to peddle their wares.

If they had a structured market, which they don't then they could rely on other forms of promotion throughout the year to encourage new blood, so all that will happen will be the continued slow down, more club driven introduction of brainwashed sad people into Solo's and the like, so how does that help Harken in the greater scheme of things?

Harken as I recall aims at the top end performance market, not much of that going on anywhere else in the world, OK, the dinghy show will once again preach to the converted, but not many new faces there, hardly a premier showcase.

No, it'll be a shame to see the demise of the LBS, big mistake, don't these people ever get together and discuss the actual market they rely on and make sure certain things continue for the common good?


Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 01 Dec 12 at 4:24pm
Shows may have been good for flogging beach toys but people don't get into dinghy sailing on a whim at a show. The network of clubs need to be the way into the sport. Clubs need to burn the members only signs and throw open ithe doors. 


Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 01 Dec 12 at 5:29pm
I dunno, but my 'sad Solo' is doing far more for Harken directly... quid pro quo, glad they're down to earth supoorting events i'm likely to attend and enjoy reading about, rather than up their arse with marketing hyperbole and dicking around at the LBS with non-customers.

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Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 01 Dec 12 at 5:40pm
Originally posted by 2547

Shows may have been good for flogging beach toys but people don't get into dinghy sailing on a whim at a show. The network of clubs need to be the way into the sport. Clubs need to burn the members only signs and throw open ithe doors. 
I don't know how many clubs still fly the "Members Only" sign but I guess not many. Most nowadays say "New Members Welcome".
 
I think the sailing holiday companies would be better placed to exhibit at other shows combined with other outdoor activities.


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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 01 Dec 12 at 6:02pm
If I were running Harken and found out somebody had fitted my brand to a Solo and a Lavendar Dilly Dilly coloured one at that, I'd have to buy it back, remove all the fittings, destroy the boat and pay a hit man to take out the offender in case he tried to do it again.


Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 01 Dec 12 at 6:28pm
As a opposed to if I were running Dakine and only went and found out someone had stuck my brand all over them RS100s.... Hell, I dunno what I'd do ;-)

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Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 02 Dec 12 at 6:33pm
Oh, yes, very much a dinghy industry type is Mr Ash-Vie. 



Posted By: Andy Ash-Vie
Date Posted: 02 Dec 12 at 7:31pm
You presume too much Ed, my other boat is a RS800, and a Wayfarer, and a Lymington Scow. Can't have too many boats!


Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 02 Dec 12 at 8:23pm
Is the scow a tender for the Wayfarer, and the Wayfarer a tender for the 6m?

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Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard"
Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch"
Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air"
Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"


Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 02 Dec 12 at 8:24pm
Dear Mr Ash-Vie,

 I whole heartedly agree with your sentiment about never having too many boats.  Unfortunately, however, I have so many boats I can't afford to equip them.  I wonder, therefore, if you would be interested in fitting out my very lovely cold moulded i14 Agamemnon, built by Richardson in 1965.  In return I might consider allowing you to use my gorgeous dinghy as an exhibit at the Dinghy Show, which is, as we both know, where all the proper, well informed sailors go to make their purchasing decisions. 

Yours truly,

wing wang

xxx


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the same, but different...



Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 02 Dec 12 at 9:26pm
Originally posted by Andy Ash-Vie

You presume too much Ed, my other boat is a RS800, and a Wayfarer, and a Lymington Scow. Can't have too many boats!

Smile

Liked your mast breaking quote that ended up in Seahorse the other month! 


Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 02 Dec 12 at 11:02pm
For those of us that don't take Seahorse, what was it? Was it along the lines of "if you've never snapped a mast, you're not trying hard enough?"

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-_
Al


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 03 Dec 12 at 12:03am
Originally posted by alstorer

For those of us that don't take Seahorse, what was it? Was it along the lines of "if you've never snapped a mast, you're not trying hard enough?"



If Harken made masts they'd probably...


Posted By: rogerd
Date Posted: 03 Dec 12 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by winging it

Dear Mr Ash-Vie,

 I whole heartedly agree with your sentiment about never having too many boats.  Unfortunately, however, I have so many boats I can't afford to equip them.  I wonder, therefore, if you would be interested in fitting out my very lovely cold moulded i14 Agamemnon, built by Richardson in 1965.  In return I might consider allowing you to use my gorgeous dinghy as an exhibit at the Dinghy Show, which is, as we both know, where all the proper, well informed sailors go to make their purchasing decisions. 

Yours truly,

wing wang

xxx
 
Do Harken still do three ply rope,and tufnol blocks and cleats? 
 
If they do can I have some for my much older 1953 Hornet please.


Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 03 Dec 12 at 4:27pm
ooh Roger, I may have a matching tufnol cleat for one of your hornets.

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the same, but different...



Posted By: rogerd
Date Posted: 03 Dec 12 at 4:37pm

That would be very useful Nessa.

 


Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 03 Dec 12 at 4:49pm
it came off a recently collected kezzer.  I will measure and photograph it for you.

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the same, but different...



Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 13 Dec 12 at 3:49pm
The various simeltaneous shows at Excel are going to be using so little space that they're holding an an indoor Criterium (road bike race) on every day of the Bike Show

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-_
Al



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