Windward/leeward courses - are they fair...

   in a mixed handicap fleet?
At my club we everything from Tera's to 29ers racing the same courses.  The 29er sailors have been trying to influence the RO of the day to get courses set that involve plenty of long reaches and no runs, and this is annoying some of the non-asymmetric sailors (mainly singlehanders) as they stand no chance on handicap on such courses.
I suggested we adapt the club courses to be more windward/leeward but the 29er boys complained that that w/l courses favoured the  lasers, etc more.  I didn't think was the case but I'm happy to be disproved.
Is there a decent solution for clubs racing wide ranges of mixed handicap boats, or do they need to be split into asymmetric and non-asymmetric?

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tedm Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Posting king Joined: 20 Sep 06 Location: Chester Online Status: Offline Posts: 174	Post Options Post Reply Quote tedm Report Post Quote Reply Topic: Windward/leeward courses - are they fair... Posted: 08 Aug 11 at 10:24pm
	in a mixed handicap fleet? At my club we everything from Tera's to 29ers racing the same courses. The 29er sailors have been trying to influence the RO of the day to get courses set that involve plenty of long reaches and no runs, and this is annoying some of the non-asymmetric sailors (mainly singlehanders) as they stand no chance on handicap on such courses. I suggested we adapt the club courses to be more windward/leeward but the 29er boys complained that that w/l courses favoured the lasers, etc more. I didn't think was the case but I'm happy to be disproved. Is there a decent solution for clubs racing wide ranges of mixed handicap boats, or do they need to be split into asymmetric and non-asymmetric?

Neptune Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 08 Jun 09 Location: Berkshire United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1314	Post Options Post Reply Quote Neptune Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 08 Aug 11 at 10:42pm
	If like most clubs your RO is a weekend sailor too then teh chances are that they are going to design a course that suits their boat best - next week different boat different style of course. Should all even out. I'm not a fan of Windward leeward club racing - i think its a bit too one dimensional if you don't have a kite and frankly dull (my opinion). At my club we have an assymetric, fast and slow handicaps so that if the course favours one type of boat then all teh boats in that fleet are similarly affected - seems best way to me.
	Musto Skiff and Solo sailor

G.R.F. Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 10 Aug 08 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 4028	Post Options Post Reply Quote G.R.F. Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 08 Aug 11 at 10:53pm
	We run triangle sausage, if they (rarely) get it right, we do well on the reach the trads on the run, they don't so inevitably we get one good reach and then the run which is w/l but symm boats with monster kites generally have the advantage. But it generally works out to be a total lottery so sometimes we get it sometimes the symms and always the mackerel fleet. That'll all change shortly once the boat of total perfection is on the water..
	https://www.ease-distribution.com/

JimC Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662	Post Options Post Reply Quote JimC Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 09 Aug 11 at 7:30am
	In a mixed fleet you should have mixed courses... Its good to mix them up so that there are different styles of course each week. Funny though, normally the high speed asymettric boats prefer w/ls to courses in which they might have to two sail reach.

haroosh Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 14 Jan 09 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 521	Post Options Post Reply Quote haroosh Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 09 Aug 11 at 8:14am
	We run 2 classes but from one single start; Asymetric (with w/l) and then general handicap (with traingles and P courses etc).
	Keith RS100 GBR 116 (XLR8)

bferry Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Posting king Joined: 01 Jun 09 Location: Malta Online Status: Offline Posts: 190	Post Options Post Reply Quote bferry Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 09 Aug 11 at 8:24am
	Our club favours W/L courses since the majority of the fleet are lasers/oppies. I find that in light winds having a genniker is more of a handicap than a benefit since the boat is almost always in displacement mode meaning that the benefit of going high faster to gain VMG is lost. I tend to find myself near the end of the fleet in such races. In stronger winds, getting the hull to plain and going lower makes the race closer although I still think that the W/L favours running boats such as the laser. I would hope that the PY system has taken into account both W/L courses and triangular courses. In my opinion the course should include both W/L and reaches to make it fair and interesting when mixed classes race. W/L only courses should be left for closed class racing.
	Bernard Vareo 249 Miracle 2818 Malta

alstorer Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 02 Aug 07 Location: Cambridge Online Status: Offline Posts: 2899	Post Options Post Reply Quote alstorer Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 09 Aug 11 at 8:41am
	I think there's something touched on here- on a W/L course, the slow/non-assymetric classes will actually do quite well, but they will likely have less of a "tactical" race- yes, the really good guys will be hunting pressure, but basically it's just aim at the mark and go. On the other hand, on a triangle, the fast boats will do well, but if it's a really well set triangle they'll just blast off and leave the slow boats for dead (before possibly wiping out at the gybe mark, as being "forced" to gybe is a bad thing)
	-_ Al

bferry Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Posting king Joined: 01 Jun 09 Location: Malta Online Status: Offline Posts: 190	Post Options Post Reply Quote bferry Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 09 Aug 11 at 8:56am
	Al, that’s a good point. I forgot to factor in the (swimming) technical and physical effort needed to control an asymmetric on a fast reach.
	Bernard Vareo 249 Miracle 2818 Malta

ellistine Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 06 Mar 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 762	Post Options Post Reply Quote ellistine Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 09 Aug 11 at 9:42am
	Sundays and Mondays we have separate starts for asymms (W/L) and non-asymms. Wednesdays is a conventional triangle or trapezoid so you can choose your race days and pick your course. Personally, the long bow sprit on the 4K would require a triangle course to be just perfect otherwise we're two sail sailing and generally unable to see where we're going from all the spray.

bferry Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Posting king Joined: 01 Jun 09 Location: Malta Online Status: Offline Posts: 190	Post Options Post Reply Quote bferry Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 09 Aug 11 at 10:15am
	So would you recommned not using the asymetric, going for a better PY and following the rest of the fleet on a straightforward run with just the mainsail?
	Bernard Vareo 249 Miracle 2818 Malta