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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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    Posted: 24 May 12 at 11:15am
Originally posted by fab100

Originally posted by G.R.F.

 He was also an OK man I believe, not that I've ever seen what an OK is, but suspect the bits it's made of would be better applied as part of someones wardrobe.

Yup, this sums things up in one sentence. GRF: never letting self-confessed ignorance stand in the way of a half-baked, inconsistent opinion.



Originally posted by Rupert

That flower tub GRF posted a pic of was an OK, wasn't it?


So right again then? LOL

Damn it must be irritating, me being right all the time. LOL
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 12 at 11:18am
Originally posted by G.R.F.

Originally posted by Rupert



Now, personally, I like to win, and would get frustrated sailing a boat where I knew I would struggle to get the last 20% out of it, as I would with a 100 on a small lake. So I would love to see a modern, moderate singlehander with a kite that works on RtC courses and is faster than the current crop of 12 foot boats. I'd love to play in one, too. But I'd have to think long and hard before buying one, spending thousands on a boat when I can get as much fun spending hundreds. It would have to do everything better - upwind, I'd expect it to point high and tack on a sixpence. Downwind I want to be able to carry the kite high and low. Light winds I want it to ghost along in the slightest breeze, like a Firefly does, but I want it to be manageable but a stonking ride when it blows.


Er and we disagree in some way? That's exactly what I want now.

Farr 3.7 with a kite... trap for when it gets windy and too much like hard work.

You'd definitely need to allow yourself to use the kite when racing, and btw, it'd get a bit of an advantage on PY as all the boats sailing at clubs which submit returns (thus adjusting the EN) will probably be being sailed sans kite, thus slower than Lasers downwind.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 12 at 11:21am
Originally posted by pondmonkey

Originally posted by G.R.F.

Originally posted by Rupert



Now, personally, I like to win, and would get frustrated sailing a boat where I knew I would struggle to get the last 20% out of it, as I would with a 100 on a small lake. So I would love to see a modern, moderate singlehander with a kite that works on RtC courses and is faster than the current crop of 12 foot boats. I'd love to play in one, too. But I'd have to think long and hard before buying one, spending thousands on a boat when I can get as much fun spending hundreds. It would have to do everything better - upwind, I'd expect it to point high and tack on a sixpence. Downwind I want to be able to carry the kite high and low. Light winds I want it to ghost along in the slightest breeze, like a Firefly does, but I want it to be manageable but a stonking ride when it blows.


Er and we disagree in some way? That's exactly what I want now.

Farr 3.7 with a kite... trap for when it gets windy and too much like hard work.

You'd definitely need to allow yourself to use the kite when racing, and btw, it'd get a bit of an advantage on PY as all the boats sailing at clubs which submit returns (thus adjusting the EN) will probably be being sailed sans kite, thus slower than Lasers downwind.


On this side of things I don't think we disagree at all, though I'm not convinced Pondmonkey's view of the 3.7 is the answer. But then it is a 40 year old design, so it has plenty of good traits!


Edited by Rupert - 24 May 12 at 11:22am
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 12 at 11:28am
To clarify, this was a suggestion within the context of this thread... the ultimate conclusion being the next instalment of Graeme's journey into the weird and wonderful eccentricities of dinghy sailing.  

As a general rule of thumb, if you want a trap singlehander with a kite, I really can't see what's wrong with the MPS.  Plenty of 65kg+ folks have sailed it; it just takes time, practice, dedication and ideally, folks to learn from, either at one of the emerging club hotspots, or on the circuit.


Edited by pondmonkey - 24 May 12 at 11:29am
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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If this economy ever turns and business builds back to normality I will have another go at the V thing, this time without the flat grabby planing hull shape, if nothing else appears as a diversion in the meanwhile.

I'm contemplating re visiting the twin with space frame and hollow side tanks to push the planing on sea type of approach, but realise how totally useless such a craft would be on a lake. This lake has opened my eyes a bit to what you all have to deal with, I can also see why the Assym revolution of the nineties failed and why the majority of the market is so moribund, I even get why they didn't kite the blaze.
 I do wonder however why those furling jib genniker things didn't get developed for small lake bound craft to vary the size of their off wind power..
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 12 at 11:54am
Originally posted by G.R.F.

If this economy ever turns and business builds back to normality

Do you think it will any time soon?  I'd say expensive dinghies (especially single handers for Dad) are one of the minor casualties of this economic downturn, for club racers anyway.  I very much think the landscape of the sport as we see it will change semi-permenantly into more club-centric with holiday top ups and as such the better club race boats will become even more popular as they deliver good racing and a safer investment.

So yes, we'll all get to sail a new trap and/or asymmetric kited boat, but we'll do it on holiday, at a beach somewhere warm and sunny.  We won't bother trying to make one work in a crappy handicap race at a shifty duck pond, no matter how RTC friendly the demo-boys say they are and no matter what changes the RYA think they're making to the PY system.  


Edited by pondmonkey - 24 May 12 at 12:26pm
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Posts: 4028 		Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 12 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by pondmonkey

 

Do you think it will any time soon? 

No, it's getting worse daily, and there is worse to come. Now the banks are coming round to dealing with the real Sub Prime lending on a National scale in Southern Europe and stealing themselves for the shock to come and the only place they can go for funds is us in the small business and private sector and they are milking us dry.

We're sandwiched between a market scared sh*tless by a gormless media, a bunch of politico's that have no idea what makes things go round, a maelstrom of politicking on a European scale which I suspect is going to take nothing less than revolution to sort out.

I've been a risk taker all my commercial life, but never before have I been so risk averse than I am at present, even if I had that golden product, I wouldn't risk marketing it now, my guess for when this sorts itself out, 2015 at the earliest.

Truth is we avoided what should have been a slump in 2001-2 with the dot com bust, but we didn't instead we went on an orgy of complex financial deals and debt, playing to a market driven by algorithms controlled by noone, so not even the masters of the universe truly understand how it works now and until we undo the ten years of boom with an equivalent bust, i can see no light at the end of the tunnel I fear.

Normally niche markets wear quite well through recessions, I've lived through several now, from the three day week of the seventies through Thatchers eighties and Majors nineties (note it's always the Tories that ram a recession home, usually after a spell of labour indulgence)but this is the first that isn't necessarily within the control of the incumbent politicians. The "Markets" are a machine now run by software and perception and the perception is all bad.


Edited by G.R.F. - 24 May 12 at 12:23pm
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2547 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 12 at 1:50pm

To think the challenges faced by the sport are defined by the product is to completely misunderstand the nature of the sport and how peoples behaviors have changed.

 

People don't commit a life time to a sport (or club) any more, well most don't.

 

We seem to have changed to a nation of "dabblers" people who try stuff have a go, then move on.

 

For those people there are plenty of roto moulds lined up at the schools and holiday centres.

 

For the enthusiast who is prepared to dedicate more time there is a huge range of options already on the market.

 

I think Fab100 has captured all the key issues a few pages earlier.

 

Seems GRF is on the search for the holy grail of sailing dinghies that is fast, light, cheap and any numpty could sail it … as has been pointed out such a beast doesn’t exist and it’s existence is precluded by the laws of physics unless you are prepared to get a multihull.

 

I don’t know why you have an aversion to them but they seem the perfect solution for you and I think you kind of know that having designed a faux multi in the coal barge.

 



Edited by 2547 - 24 May 12 at 1:51pm
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Well my own living memory of the nineties recession folks had two options - cut back and survive, whether or not you think you need to, no one knows what's around the corner.  Or keep on spending regardless, thinking the light will magically appear at the end of the tunnel.   It doesn't, people think economies go up and down like a roller coaster and all they need do is simply 'ride it out', sadly they don't.   Economies shift trajectory and markets change their landscapes and dynamics.  You never get back what was, with any luck you simply get a more prosperous future somewhere different, judging when that day will be... who knows.

As for retailing expensive dinghies... well if I were in that game I'd be diversifying as much as possible (to stay afloat) and looking at a completely different model for when the sun shines again.  A mix of short and long term leasing might be an option.  Sell off the 3 year old boats to emerging markets and keep your repeat pipeline and prospect generation as full as possible with minimal financial commitment from the customer.


Edited by pondmonkey - 24 May 12 at 1:57pm
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Kev M View Drop Down
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Posts: 346 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Kev M Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 12 at 2:03pm
Without wishing to go too far off topic, what is it about the Vareo that make it so bad going into wind?
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