New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Spy photos
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Spy photos

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 99100101102103 179>
Author
andy_cherub View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 16 Mar 05
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 768
Post Options Post Options   Quote andy_cherub Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Spy photos
    Posted: 04 Jan 08 at 10:43am

Yes your right Ben, but those losses on the tips do move down the foil section. Agreed it does get less - but if your looking for the "best" performance then youd wana reduce as much drag as possible - why else do people spend hours fairing their foils for just a little nik............. drag, even the smallest amount can then cause cavitation.

Every little bit helps I guess

-12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites'
-Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors.
Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff
Back to Top
Granite View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work
Avatar

Joined: 12 May 04
Location: Scotland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 476
Post Options Post Options   Quote Granite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 08 at 5:57pm
It is a tricky subject from what I understand.

You have to match the winglet size, shape, section, angle and toe in to the planform and section of the main foil, together with the expected wing loading, angle of attack and velocity.

In aircraft they can generally only get a performance improvement in one flight regime i.e what is good for cruise is poor for the climb.

The same improvement as got from the winglets can often be obtained just by increasing the span of the wing, although this is often not used for structural and space reasons.


If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right
Back to Top
mike ellis View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 30 Dec 05
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2339
Post Options Post Options   Quote mike ellis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 08 at 6:41pm
wouldnt it be better just to have oval tips on the foils? that way you get minimal induced drag and no resistance on a rotating foil.
600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it.
Also International 14, 1318
Back to Top
tack'ho View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 08 Feb 06
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1100
Post Options Post Options   Quote tack'ho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 08 at 7:03pm

What effect to the winglets have when the foil is not pointing in the same direction as the water flow, ie when instigating a turn. Surely you are then exposing the "side" of the winglet rather than its leading edge.  Lets face it aircraft that turn alot do not have winglets and nor to they put them on control surfaces.

Dont know why its not on the daggerboard - and surely oval section tip would be just as this as its relativly low speeds (compared to a plane wing or speed boat hydrofoils). Higher viscosity means effects occur at lower speeds, but I'm not sure if even allowing for this it would be a huge effect at moth speeds.

I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e!
Back to Top
Wes View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 24 Aug 05
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 97
Post Options Post Options   Quote Wes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 08 at 2:44pm

Aircraft that turn don't have winglets?

Err - wrong! Look at gliders - where winglets were first developed.... Mine has winglets and climbs (in circles) and cruises in a straight line better than one without. I'm not an engineer but simply put, there is less drag with them fitted. Don't think I've ever had more 'thrust' through having them fitted either....

At what point of sailing, would you consider that there was not flow almost directly over the rudder? If the water was not flowing over a foiling moth's blades, it wouldn't be able to turn at all and stay up.......

Back to Top
Isis View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 01 Sep 05
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2753
Post Options Post Options   Quote Isis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 08 at 3:03pm
Originally posted by Wes

I'm not an engineer but simply put, there is less drag with them fitted. Don't think I've ever had more 'thrust' through having them fitted either....

A quick bit of googleing to check im not talking out of my arse seems to suport both effects depending on where you look and whos written it.

Back to Top
Wes View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 24 Aug 05
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 97
Post Options Post Options   Quote Wes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 08 at 3:55pm

Yes but no but.....

How can a passive object 'create' thrust? No-one has ever achieved that? I still don't see it as a driving force, more a way of reducing drag therefore allowing the thrust created from the sail to be used more efficiently.

Whatever - we're splitting hairs here. I think it's a great idea to try and would love to know on what the winglets were based on, how a design was finalized and then what performance advantage they give. Also wondering why the adjustable centerboard stops them from being used there? In my simple mind, if you can reduce drag, you can use a reduced AOA therefore the same foil shape could go faster? What effect does the AOA have on the winglets compared to the foil?

I'll certainly be having a look at that moth next time it's drawn to the cheese candle. Hope I actually get to see it sail this time.....

 

Back to Top
aardvark_issues View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 24 Jul 05
Location: Weston-Super-Mare
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 505
Post Options Post Options   Quote aardvark_issues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 08 at 5:21pm
Originally posted by Wes

I'll certainly be having a look at that moth next time it's drawn to the cheese candle. Hope I actually get to see it sail this time.....

 


Hmm, bad luck and rubbish weather...
Back to Top
Wes View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 24 Aug 05
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 97
Post Options Post Options   Quote Wes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jan 08 at 5:48pm

I know - I was out in a 200. Some foiling towards the end of the day though....

Back to Top
craiggo View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 01 Apr 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1810
Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 08 at 12:23pm
The winglets reduce the induced drag at the wingtip by making use of the circulation around the tip. As long as you design your foil with winglet from the outset then you should be able to make a reasonable performance gain, however the same does not apply if you intend to add a winglet to an existing foil. The increased loading at the tip caused by the winglet means that you will see and increase in twist and bend along the foil, which will take you away from its optimum design condition. On an aircraft the weight required to 'beef' up the structure will almost certainly negate much of the reduced drag benefit however on a dinghy foil the increased weight shouldnt present too much of a problem.
So what I am saying is that if you design the structure to give you the correct foil shape at the design conditions with winglet on, you should be able to make a reasonable performance gain.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 99100101102103 179>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy