Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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Laser 140101 Tynemouth |
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andy_cherub ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 16 Mar 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 768 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 04 Jan 08 at 10:43am |
Yes your right Ben, but those losses on the tips do move down the foil section. Agreed it does get less - but if your looking for the "best" performance then youd wana reduce as much drag as possible - why else do people spend hours fairing their foils for just a little nik............. drag, even the smallest amount can then cause cavitation. Every little bit helps I guess |
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-12ft skiff, Team 'CST Composites'
-Many thanks goes out to all of my sponsors. Ignore my user name, my views are of a 12ft skiff |
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Granite ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() ![]() Joined: 12 May 04 Location: Scotland Online Status: Offline Posts: 476 |
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It is a tricky subject from what I understand.
You have to match the winglet size, shape, section, angle and toe in to the planform and section of the main foil, together with the expected wing loading, angle of attack and velocity. In aircraft they can generally only get a performance improvement in one flight regime i.e what is good for cruise is poor for the climb. The same improvement as got from the winglets can often be obtained just by increasing the span of the wing, although this is often not used for structural and space reasons. |
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If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right
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mike ellis ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 30 Dec 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2339 |
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wouldnt it be better just to have oval tips on the foils? that way you get minimal induced drag and no resistance on a rotating foil.
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600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it.
Also International 14, 1318 |
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tack'ho ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 08 Feb 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1100 |
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What effect to the winglets have when the foil is not pointing in the same direction as the water flow, ie when instigating a turn. Surely you are then exposing the "side" of the winglet rather than its leading edge. Lets face it aircraft that turn alot do not have winglets and nor to they put them on control surfaces. Dont know why its not on the daggerboard - and surely oval section tip would be just as this as its relativly low speeds (compared to a plane wing or speed boat hydrofoils). Higher viscosity means effects occur at lower speeds, but I'm not sure if even allowing for this it would be a huge effect at moth speeds. |
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I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e!
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Wes ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: 24 Aug 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 97 |
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Aircraft that turn don't have winglets? Err - wrong! Look at gliders - where winglets were first developed.... Mine has winglets and climbs (in circles) and cruises in a straight line better than one without. I'm not an engineer but simply put, there is less drag with them fitted. Don't think I've ever had more 'thrust' through having them fitted either.... At what point of sailing, would you consider that there was not flow almost directly over the rudder? If the water was not flowing over a foiling moth's blades, it wouldn't be able to turn at all and stay up....... |
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Isis ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 01 Sep 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2753 |
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A quick bit of googleing to check im not talking out of my arse seems to suport both effects depending on where you look and whos written it. |
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Wes ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: 24 Aug 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 97 |
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Yes but no but..... How can a passive object 'create' thrust? No-one has ever achieved that? I still don't see it as a driving force, more a way of reducing drag therefore allowing the thrust created from the sail to be used more efficiently. Whatever - we're splitting hairs here. I think it's a great idea to try and would love to know on what the winglets were based on, how a design was finalized and then what performance advantage they give. Also wondering why the adjustable centerboard stops them from being used there? In my simple mind, if you can reduce drag, you can use a reduced AOA therefore the same foil shape could go faster? What effect does the AOA have on the winglets compared to the foil? I'll certainly be having a look at that moth next time it's drawn to the cheese candle. Hope I actually get to see it sail this time.....
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aardvark_issues ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 24 Jul 05 Location: Weston-Super-Mare Online Status: Offline Posts: 505 |
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Hmm, bad luck and rubbish weather... |
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Wes ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: 24 Aug 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 97 |
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I know - I was out in a 200. Some foiling towards the end of the day though.... |
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craiggo ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 01 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1810 |
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The winglets reduce the induced drag at the wingtip by making use of the circulation around the tip. As long as you design your foil with winglet from the outset then you should be able to make a reasonable performance gain, however the same does not apply if you intend to add a winglet to an existing foil. The increased loading at the tip caused by the winglet means that you will see and increase in twist and bend along the foil, which will take you away from its optimum design condition. On an aircraft the weight required to 'beef' up the structure will almost certainly negate much of the reduced drag benefit however on a dinghy foil the increased weight shouldnt present too much of a problem.
So what I am saying is that if you design the structure to give you the correct foil shape at the design conditions with winglet on, you should be able to make a reasonable performance gain. |
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