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    Posted: 06 Sep 18 at 2:54pm
Unless it wasn't reasonably possible for the them to avoid contact, then they both break rule 14. If they engaged in a wacky dance of changing course, then both could argue it wasn't reasonably possible to avoid the other who was changing their course so often and so rapidly.  

But as neither boat is right of way, neither can say they were waiting until it was clear the other wasn't avoiding contact. As neither boat is right of way, there is no requirement to give the other boat room to keep clear when they change course either.

However, unlike keeping clear, there does have to be contact for rule 14 to be broken. So they could engage in a pretty wacky dance of avoiding action without breaking any rules as long as they don't collide. 

In reality, yellow can only really bear away from close hauled, so it would be obvious to blue that they should also bear away (possibly gybing). 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 18 at 3:05pm
Originally posted by Brass

You might like to try reworking the problem with Y a little to the right and B a little to the left, so that they are passing port to port, and see what you get.

 
Like this ^?
Both on starboard. 
Overlapped as neither is clear astern.
Both are on the leeward side of the other at position 2, therefore both are leeward boats, but then both are also leeward boats as they classify as the 'other' in the leeward and windward definition. But the only one can be leeward and the other de-facto windward if one is leeward. 

mmm confused again now, can both be keep clear boat and right of way boat at the same time??

Possibly the answer is that at position 1, red is on the leeward side of blue, therefore blue is the windward and keep clear boat under rule 11. So pretty clear cut at that point.

The difficulty would be telling the exact point when blue passed in front of red, going on to the leeward side of red, so both boats can be defined as leeward boats. 


Edited by mozzy - 06 Sep 18 at 3:19pm
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As neither one is 'to windward' of the other neither can be give way boat so back to rule 14
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Posts: 611 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 18 at 3:26pm
In the new scenario, Y has a boat to leeward (but nowt to windward) and is therefore (a) windward boat. B also has a boat to leeward (and nowt to w/w) and is also (a) windward boat.

So where before neither was the right of way boat because neither had a boat to windward of them, now they both have right of way because they both have boats to windward!

This makes my head hurt!
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Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 18 at 3:37pm
I blame Steve Cockrill, before his 4th Dimension nobody sailed by the lee  Angry
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 18 at 3:58pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

I blame Steve Cockrill, before his 4th Dimension nobody sailed by the lee  Angry

But whereas the first scenario is more dependent upon sailing by the lee, the second is less dependent.  Surely one of these situations will occur pretty much anytime a beating boat meets a same tack boat that is on a run?  

For years I have happily called starboard close hauled and met with no discontent ... likewise I have altered course to avoid same tack beating boats when I have been on a run; but it would appear that I now have to engage in a dance off.

It would seem that there is something amiss with the rules if it forces a Mexican standoff when boats meet.
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Go through the scenarios, in particular what rights of way are as the boats close. Think you'll find you are worrying abut nothing. When running boats on the same tack and not running deep by the lee then there's a clear windward and leeward, and it all works as you think it does.
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Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 18 at 4:09pm
At pos 1 Blue is to windward of Red so must be keep clear boat (as would be the case in the original situation, if Blue was not sailing by the lee Yellow would be leeward boat and have RoW. 
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Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 18 at 4:11pm
And if rule 11 applies until Yellow crosses Blue's bow then the situation can't arise unless Blue changes course at the last minute?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 18 at 6:07pm
I follow the reasoning of this, but as a matter of fact blue is upwind of yellow.  Why don’t the rules define the upwind boat as the windward boat?
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