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Post Options Post Options   Quote Wes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Spy photos
    Posted: 09 Jan 08 at 1:34pm

Got to disagree again!

Again coming from the gliding background, I'll use what i know from there, but the same use of winglets has since progressed onto everything upto Boeing 747's,

It has always been benificial to have the winglets retro fitted.

On the gliders wings that I have fitted them to, the Discuss (for which I actually made the winglets) had NO beefing up, infact it only had 2 loacating pins to prevent twist and was otherwise held in place with electrical tape. On the ASH-25 it did have a far more modified wing end, but that was for the 1.5m extension as opposed to the winglets. Of course, heavier gliders can actually be a very good thing, that's why we stuff them full of water, but I'm guessing that on airliners the fuel saving make the modification worth it or no airline would pay for the rertofit.

If you think about it, less drag = less force loading......

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Wes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 08 at 1:36pm
However, I'm in complete agreement with the fact that a foil designed to work with a winglet from the beginning, should be more efficiant that one that has had a winglet retro fitted.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chew my RS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 08 at 1:53pm
Wes - Why do you carry water ballast in a glider? 
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Contender 541 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Contender 541 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 08 at 2:07pm

You have to overcome inertial to gain momentum

The greater the inertia to overcome, the greater the momentum

BTW don't confuse momentum and speed

Think of it as 2 cars of vastly different weights traveling at the same speed.  Turn the engines off and let them roll.  The heavier one will roll further (frictionless system)

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 08 at 2:26pm
If the system is truly frictionless and has no drag, then both vehicles will roll forever...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chew my RS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 08 at 2:28pm
I guessed it may be for extra momemtum, but didn't want to appear silly!  Still, you need greater lift and hence end up with more drag.  Presumably the added momemtum more than makes up for this?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Contender 541 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 08 at 2:30pm

Originally posted by JimC

If the system is truly frictionless and has no drag, then both vehicles will roll forever...

True.  Very True

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Wes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 08 at 2:30pm

I knew someone would ask that.... It's not easy to explain, and for the sake of my typing I'll try to keep it short so sorry if it appears simple.

A glider will fly a certain distance for a height, this is measured as height = 1, so using the ASH-25 (its a type, think 18ft skiff feel free to Google, sadly it's not the -30mi) that'll be about 60:1. So, for one mile of height, it'll cover 60 miles forward. That's all you need to know if you are just cruising about. However, if you are racing them, you also care about the speed at which it does this. Normally the best glide ratio is found at about 56knts, but that's too slow to race around a course, so you'd want to fly between thermals at something like 75-95knts, depending on conditions. At that speed the glide ratio drops to something like 40:1 - 20:1. This is called a 'speed polar'.

Now, if the wings are stuffed full of water (and we are talking significant amounts, up to 200kg), the speed at which you can fly for any ratio changes. the 60:1 will be achieved at something like 68knts, the 20:1 at something like 110knts. This may not seem a great advantage, but it means for a given amount of height, you travel the same distance, but get there nearly 20% faster. or, you can cover the same distance at the same speed but keep the extra altitude.

The pay off is that the glider will not cimb quite as well in a thermal, however, it pays off to climb slightly slower and cruise faster as long as you are in strong conditions.

 

And that's keeping it short.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote tmoore Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 08 at 2:56pm

im not quite following where this is leading. filling boats up with water does not make them faster. can you please relate it back to boats.

i can accept that the winglets may produce extra lift etc. not sure why but it seems logical. when the rudder is moved to a set angle there will be proportionally more area slowing the boat (due to the angled winglets being at an angle to direction of travel). simply solved by reducing the angle to get the same turning force as before. or am i missing something big?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 08 at 4:54pm
Remember though that the fastest way to steer the boat is to only use small rudder movements. The rudder should effectively follow the direction of the boat which is steered by changing the centre of effort of the rig and foils using heel. The small yawing angle required to steer the boat should not increase the drag sufficiently to penalise the tip devices.
The real benefit for using them on the moth is that designed correctly the stalling speed of the rudder horizontal foil will be reduced, meaning that Mike has better pitch control of his boat at low speeds, as he transitions to or from foiling mode.
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