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    Posted: 22 Jan 12 at 11:31am
Whilst serious accidents do occasionally occur, the risks involved with dinghy racing are surely tolerable and would be considered ALARP. It would not be practicable for the majority of clubs to introduce new equipment or provide additional training to help in the case of a once every 20 year accident. But of course, the RYA should continuosly monitor best practise and advise as necessary.
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zippyRN View Drop Down
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Posts: 437 		Post Options Post Options   Quote zippyRN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 12 at 6:34am
Originally posted by Stuart O

Could also be that the knee  and lower back injuries are the route cause of neck and spinal pain, and not a head trauma. In my profession whenever someone comes in with neck pain I always check ankles, knees, shoulders and wrists...and I would say it is these are more common and that need better primary care. 

that's all valid and think taken as read, 

my attempts at discussion were two fold - given the practice in other sports, and general emergency care practice in the light of the incident which Tess Lloyd has been involved in,  what has become apparent from the discussions is a number of factors 

- some people still think that disclaimers  are worth the paper they are written on - no amount of disclaimers will protect  an individual or organisation from their direct mistreatment of someone 

- that if the risk is small you don't need to think about it despite the possibility of 8 and 9 figure payouts following mismanagement

- it's not in the NGB course therefore it'll never happen and it's not important

- there's a lack of awareness of the abilities or otherwise of other services -  while for the coastal guys and girls  having 'call 999' may well be enough with HMCG and RNLI resources - it might not be  enough for some of the inland clubs  -  as despite  the  step changes  in specialist provision HART has brought around in the ambulance service  water rescue isn't necessarily going to be forthcoming from 999                                         
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Posts: 514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stuart O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 12 at 6:47pm
Could also be that the knee  and lower back injuries are the route cause of neck and spinal pain, and not a head trauma. In my profession whenever someone comes in with neck pain I always check ankles, knees, shoulders and wrists...and I would say it is these are more common and that need better primary care. 
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Posts: 739 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ASok Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 12 at 9:06am
ZippyRN - as I understand it from reading your links, head trauma needs to treated in a manner where you assume neck and spinal trauma.

However, your links from earlier cite references that suggest only 39% of injuries were recorded on the upper body. 32% was logged as head injury. This reference (your first link) cites that all injuries 'even minor ones' were recorded.

This study doesn't provide a firm basis for decision making and changing policy. The injuries recorded during the study could be everything from a minor bump to a huge whack. The studies really highlighted that long term injuries (knees, lower back) are the most significant issue.

The collective anecdotal experience on here supports your cited data that serious head and spinal injuries don't occur as often as you may believe. These boards do contain a great deal of reference to long term pains such as knee and back issues. Maybe this is the longer term issue that isn't being adequately addressed.

I'm not saying you are wrong about the spinal treatment issue, but leaping into additional safety cover without calculating the risks seems absurd to me.
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Posts: 725 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ex laser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 12 at 1:40am
Originally posted by r2d2

Originally posted by zippyRN

do some of you  people have difficulty in reading ? or in comprehension ? 
rather than putting up agressive barriers  where's the discussion?  - because all i see is head burying  and ignorance - 15 -20 years ago the same  was happening in other organisations and it took criminal prosecutions  to shake them out of their complacency . 


ZippyRN there are collectively 100s of years dinghy sailing experience on this forum and in this thread and those people just do not agree with you. You haven't made a convincing argument or presented the evidence for it. Rather than resorting to criticising people, it might be better to think carefly about what they have said.


could not agree more! Clap
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Posts: 514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stuart O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 12 at 10:14pm
Barriers??? Ignorance?????

a discussion is a 2 way thing. I certainly have read your posts with interests....but when we direct you and explain to you why sailing clubs do not follow what you say you round on us.

IF you feel that strongly talk to the RYA as they lead ALL clubs in this country and IF they agree they will direct us. BUT please explain to me why most running clubs dont have spine boards. Its the same reasons as sailing clubs...they HAVE carried out risk assessments and the risk is so low they dont accept them as a risk
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Posts: 350 		Post Options Post Options   Quote r2d2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 12 at 8:57pm
Originally posted by zippyRN

do some of you  people have difficulty in reading ? or in comprehension ? 
rather than putting up agressive barriers  where's the discussion?  - because all i see is head burying  and ignorance - 15 -20 years ago the same  was happening in other organisations and it took criminal prosecutions  to shake them out of their complacency . 


ZippyRN there are collectively 100s of years dinghy sailing experience on this forum and in this thread and those people just do not agree with you. You haven't made a convincing argument or presented the evidence for it. Rather than resorting to criticising people, it might be better to think carefly about what they have said.
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Posts: 437 		Post Options Post Options   Quote zippyRN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 12 at 7:33pm
do some of you  people have difficulty in reading ? or in comprehension ? 

rather than putting up agressive barriers  where's the discussion?  - because all i see is head burying  and ignorance - 15 -20 years ago the same  was happening in other organisations and it took criminal prosecutions  to shake them out of their complacency . 
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Posts: 514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stuart O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 12 at 6:42pm
Funny I dont see them saying it will never happen what I see people saying here is that it happens VERY rarely and therefore as a risk factor is treated as such and not ignored.
They would defend themselves based on the risk factor...seriously zippyRN quote numbers. I think you will see that serious head injuries are minute in comparison to those that in the sport...in health and safety terms the risk is LOW.
Until told by the RYA that procedures have to altered we should not try and force change based on the back of one tragic accident where there was NO spinal injury and a full investigation has yet to be published.
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Posts: 437 		Post Options Post Options   Quote zippyRN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 12 at 4:08pm
What is apparent is that  people have chosen to take an antagonistic  tone with regard to this discussion  -  such as accusing me have having an agenda  rather than taking the opportunity to discuss something  which has moved from 'it'll never happen'  to headline news  thanks to the incident in Aus 

Jeffers  despite your gratutiously offensive  post , i would point out that  statements about people sailing at their own risk generally aren't worth the paper they are written on, especially once the actions of the club  or it's servants  amount to negligence 

Contender 443 -  i'm not 'threatening lawyers'   comments about   'threatening lawyers kills activities'  are patently not true  or  there wouldn't be any  'amateur' / 'volunteer' activity in the UK at all . 

However  what has become increasingly apparent  elsewhere in the voluntary / not-for-profit / charity sector is that   this status can't be used as an excuse  for poor standards 

How would the RYA  and/or a club defend itself  if the  'other side' in a legal action produced RLSS and JRCALC guidelines saying  that anyone knocked  out  due to a head injury is assumed to have a spinal injury until proven

while the JRCALC guidelines are written including health professional only  procedures, the guidelines minus those procedures are in use for None Paramedic ambulance crews both paid and Volunteer 
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