New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Another little conundrum for the hive mind..
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Another little conundrum for the hive mind..

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 6>
Author
iGRF View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 11
Location: Hythe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6499
Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Another little conundrum for the hive mind..
    Posted: 06 Jan 13 at 6:42pm
Well, I've switched my little EPS to rear sheeting, and done away with all that silly rope in the middle of the boat nonsense back to the way life was in my first ever single hander the Blaze, with a neat little auto block from Ronstan right up the front near the mast and everything is now cool, except I shall have to learn another tacking technique which doesn't involve teeth, but that's not my problem.

My problem is as follows, one fundamental in windsurfing is that you sheet into the centreline and slam the foot of the sail as far back down on the boards as possible to go upwind, which was my secondary goal with this sheeting method. I've even fitted an adjustable forestay to further emulate it.

But...

It doesn't work, the boat goes slower, why is this? Is my question for speculation, why is it Laser style boats don't work centre sheeted?



Edited by iGRF - 06 Jan 13 at 7:40pm
Back to Top
Dougal View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 09
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 556
Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 13 at 6:59pm
Camber induced windsurf rigs have quite a large angle of attack so when the rig is sheeted right in, the angle of the sail to the wind at the luff is still quite wide when compared to a dinghy rig.  There may also be an apparent wind effect because of the higher speed of a board compared to a dinghy.  Sheeting to the centre line works on a 2 person boat because you have the jib that is changing the wind angle over the bulk of the main.
 
This is how I have always thought it, but happy to be corrected if needed!
 
 


Edited by Dougal - 06 Jan 13 at 7:05pm
What could possibly go wrong?
Back to Top
JP233 View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 05 Dec 11
Location: warwick
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 47
Post Options Post Options   Quote JP233 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 13 at 7:23pm
You have switched it TO rear sheeting?
Thanks
Jamie
Back to Top
iGRF View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 11
Location: Hythe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6499
Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 13 at 7:34pm
Hmm, time was we used to use soft sails and it still followed, in fact we used to actually over sheet at times in certain conditions on certain types of board, and this EPS rig isn't that unlike a full battened sailboard rig.

It was a bit of a funny day today, misty, light wind, which the EPS and that rig don't really like when the wind drops below about 3-4 knots. My expectations were more speed and better upwind, but the further toward the centre the more it slowed, I had to try it over a bit of a period to check it wasn't just the wind dropping or a lift that allowed both a Laser and a Supernova (my normal wednesday afternoon opponents) to overhaul me.

It just doesn't seem logical to sheet out to go faster, but today that was what was going on so I shall have to adjust my rear sheeting thing which at the moment has a fixed block dead centre, to more of a traveller arrangement like those fitted to the back of a Laser.

In fact I noticed on the Guy with the Rooster, he had a natty rudder arm bit the wiggle thing attaches to with a roller on the top to allow the traveller to go over it, and carbon, very natty, where do they come from I wonder, I should have asked but when I saw that i hadn't realised I'd be going slower not faster at that point.
Back to Top
iGRF View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 11
Location: Hythe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6499
Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 13 at 7:36pm
Originally posted by JP233

You have switched it TO rear sheeting?


Yes it was centre sheeted.
Back to Top
Rupert View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 11 Aug 04
Location: Whitefriars sc
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8956
Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 13 at 8:23pm
JP, rear sheeted then up the boom and off a block on there, rather than my old fashioned favorite Firefly style aft sheeting.

GRF, if you sheet in too much the sail simply stalls. In the Europe, I used to have to sheet with the boom actually outside the boat at the stern in a real blow to get it to go fast. Oddly, the only exception I've found to that was with the wishbone boomed 1980's windsurfer style rigged Tonic, which would sheet to the centre with no trouble at all. Never understood why, but maybe it is a function of the sail design needed for a wishbone rig?
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
Back to Top
craiggo View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 01 Apr 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1810
Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 13 at 8:27pm
Graeme, if you can sheet out and keep the sail filling it will always be quicker than oversheeting. Its basic physics. If you look at the force vectors from the mainsail if it is over sheeting you will have virtually no forward component, only sideways and therefore slow.
The roller on laser tillers does indeed allow the traveller to be tightened right down but this is not to prevent the boom moving out to the quarter, it is to allow the leech tension to be maintained against the rather bendy mast. Even with the super tight traveller the boom on a laser is over the rear quarter when fully sheeted in. In most single sail classes this tends to be a good approximation for the best upwind position.
As has been said on two sail boats you can drag the main up to the centreline but only because the flow angle onto the mainsail is altered, and most of the forward drive is developed by the jib.

The other thing to remember is that in light airs you need to sail free to maintain attached flow. Dinghy sails tend to collapse and therefore struggle to re-attach whereas more rigid windsurfing sails can quickly re-attach the flow. The other thing is that with light winds there tends to be a very thin boundary layer therefore there is a large pressure and directional gradient acting on the rig, so you want to allow a fair amount of twist in the rig. As the wind speed picks up to 7-8kts the boundary layer gradient over the height of the rig will be less and therefore you want a tighter leech.

There are other reasons such as rotational centre of effort of boards vs dinghies, and position of foils which will also dictate rig set up.

From what you have said, I would say you were oversheeted and pointing too high. If you compared your actual track across the ground I would imagine that even though you outpointed other boats on the lake they probably sailed a higher course???
Back to Top
Telltale View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king


Joined: 03 May 12
Location: Cardiff
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 169
Post Options Post Options   Quote Telltale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 13 at 8:53pm
Originally posted by Rupert

JP, rear sheeted then up the boom and off a block on there, rather than my old fashioned favorite Firefly style aft sheeting.

GRF, if you sheet in too much the sail simply stalls. In the Europe, I used to have to sheet with the boom actually outside the boat at the stern in a real blow to get it to go fast. 

Yep, I think you will find that quite a few RS300 sailors ex and otherwise will confirm that as well, boom out to the quarter to get it to go.
Back to Top
blaze720 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 28 Sep 05
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1635
Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 13 at 9:24pm
yes yea ...single sail set-up .... about 30-35cm from centreline works best for the Blaze in terms of VMG and I suspect  the EPS is not that much different.  Tighter can work in a tactical sh*t-fight with a real pain in 'the whatsit' in his or her 'pinch and fight' traditional box but long term all around the course a bit lower works best for boat speed ... and handicap.

But you might have known this already ....

Mike L. 
Back to Top
winging it View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 07
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3958
Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 13 at 9:26pm
yes, the megabyte has an ultra flexi rig.  To make it go I have to pull the traveller up to windward but not sheet the boom inside the transom or it all stalls.
the same, but different...

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 6>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy