Pointing
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=991
Printed Date: 14 Aug 25 at 10:13pm Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Pointing
Posted By: Sumo
Subject: Pointing
Date Posted: 05 Sep 05 at 5:50pm
A question for those in the know!
What affects the ability of a dinghy to point well when on a beat?
|
Replies:
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 05 Sep 05 at 6:30pm
It depends on the class. What class are you asking about?
|
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Sep 05 at 6:31pm
Originally posted by Sumo
A question for those in the know!
What affects the ability of a dinghy to point well when on a beat? |
A whole host of complicated stuff:-
The major factors:-
drag, hull and rig
rig layout and sail design
foil design
There are two major limiting factors
- how close you can sail to the wind and still have the sails fill
- how much slower you get as you get close to the wind.
One of the subtler factors is that the faster you go the lower you point.
|
Posted By: Matt Critchley
Date Posted: 05 Sep 05 at 9:47pm
Originally posted by JimC
A whole host of complicated stuff:- The major factors:-
drag, hull and rig rig layout and sail design foil design
There are two major limiting factors - how close you can sail to the wind and still have the sails fill - how much slower you get as you get close to the wind.
One of the subtler factors is that the faster you go the lower you point. |
In most cases there is little that you can do about drag, hull shape etc - without going to a load of expense; particularly in a one design class.
In practice, the biggest single difference will be mainsail leach tension. The more leach tension that you apply, the higher you will point (at the expense of boat speed) and vice versa. The issue therefore is to find the ideal compromise between pointing and boat speed to achieve max VMG.
Boats such as B14s, RS800s and Int 14s etc will generally benefit from footing when planing conditions apply whereas Lasers and other non planing boats would probably want to be sailed higher.
With all of this however is the need to keep boat speed up by footing off and then luffiing once at optimum speed. As speed reduces, then foot again. The amount you will need to foot/luff is thus boat specific.
Cheers
|
Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 05 Sep 05 at 10:15pm
I remember sailing a Cherub a few years ago which had a 6 ft long by 9 inch board. It never got up to the mark in the lulls, but in the puffs it went like the proverbial and if it persisted I always ended up overstanding!
But the previous replies are right, its down to good sails and a good set of foils and a hull which doesn't cause too much drag and (this is often forgotten) a rig which doesn't cause to much drag.
But I have seen many a novice blame his boat for not pointing, whereas in fact he was on the wrong wind shift. Here's a simple explanation for those prepared to get the graph paper out and work out the subtleties. When you are being lifted your boat feels like its outpointing those ahead and when you are headed you can convince yourself your boat is not pointing. But if you look over your shoulder the truth will be revealed!
|
Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 05 Sep 05 at 10:23pm
Here's another aspect of this pointing business. I sail a 4000 which above about f4 planes to windward quite fast, so when I have to overtake a boat in front I'm inclined to drive rather than point. I recall passing a 400 in this fashion and after a few minutes I tacked and crossed in front of him. Back in the bar afterwards he commented on how well my boat pointed - what he meant was how well my boat went to windward, not quite the same thing!
|
Posted By: NeilP
Date Posted: 06 Sep 05 at 10:51am
Pointing ability is, like all tuning issues, dependant on the interaction of a huge number of factors.
Mainsail leech tension has already been mentioned. On a boat like my FD, with a centre main and traveller, this is controlled in moderate breezes by mainsheet tension. As you wind on the leech tension, you also straighten the genoa luff - good thing, also aids pointing. However, as mainsail leech tension increases, you also pull the mast aft from the hounds upwards. This will free the genoa luff and widen the slot - bad thing, hurts pointing. In an FD which will plane to windward in 10 knots, pointing is crucial as the boat can feel great sailed free, but you can find yourself reaching around the ocean, going warp factor 9 but travelling 10 times further than anyone else! This is often simply due to the leeches being too soft. Tighten the leeches and what happens? You're overpowered, main is backwinded by the huge genoa, boat is slow and therefore the foils dont work as well. You're pointing in the right direction now, but slower than a slug on crutches and making a ton of leeway!
What I'm trying to say, in a longwinded and roundabout way, is the whole thing is a balancing act. If your boat doesn't point, first thing to check is the nut on the end of the tiller!
Neil
|
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 06 Sep 05 at 11:38am
Sail your boat bolt upright is a good start.
In all classes I have sailed I have been known as a "stuffer" rather than a "footer" and I think it's down to style.
Sail upright and when you get a gust luff rather than ease the sheets. This works well for me but I start to struggle when it's over 15 knots - I need to switch to a footer at that point.
You should also be able to swith between modes as tactics require ...
-------------
|
Posted By: NeilP
Date Posted: 06 Sep 05 at 12:21pm
Good points well made Rick. In an ideal world your boat should be tuned so that you have an upwind 'groove' between pointing as high as possible and footing off by (probably) no more than 5 degrees. You can then go 'bow up', for example off the start to clear a boat to leeward, then once you're clear drop the bow for speed to get over the boat to leeward. Rick is absolutely right, if the boat's not flat there's no point in worrying about any tuning or trimming issues, cos you won't point anyway! In light airs, pull the sheets on slightly in the puffs, otherwise the extra force of the breeze will just open the leeches more. In strong breezes, I tend to luff AND ease the main (both hands down) to keep the boat on it's feet, then drop the bow back down before the main comes back in. It is a matter of what suits you, but the vital thing is to keep the boat flat and moving. That way the foils do the best job of limiting leeway
|
Posted By: Sumo
Date Posted: 06 Sep 05 at 5:31pm
Thanks guys, that has given me a few things to think about and try out next weekend.
|
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 08 Sep 05 at 8:15pm
Just to add it is down to personal style.
In a breeze (we are talking Lasers here) I tend to go for the pointing
and keeping the boat flat (don't be afraid to use cunningham in blow, I
think it is the most under used sail control).
In the mid range it's a case of keeping the boat moving and flat (remember flat is fast, if you heel you tend to slip sideways).
In the light stuff (where I tend to lose out being a a porker at my
club at 13st) I tend to sail with the sails fairly flat (to keep the
wind flwoing) and sailing free. So although I may point 5 to 10 degrees
lower I sail that much quicker it makes up for the extra distance.
Just my 2p.....it must work for me though having won 2 out of 3 series so far this year.
Regards,
Paul
------------- Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
|
Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 10 Sep 05 at 8:25pm
Here's my 2p worth. In boats like the Laser it pays to stuff in the gusts, but in faster boats (say PY less than 925) it gets more complicated. Below a certain windspeed you still stuff in the gusts because the added speed is not enough to compensate for the extra distance of sailing lower. However above a certain windspeed its faster to switch to driving in the gusts. You certainly sail lower than those that stuff but you sail so much faster and you find yourself luffing in the lulls.
Your crew must be aware of this method because he's going to need to be more energetic. When you luff in the lulls he may have to come in off the trapeze but in the gusts you are deliberately going to power off so he must be out there before the boat heels. The helm too has to work harder, that mainsheet will be drawn in as you luff in the lulls and may then have to be eased as the boat loses speed. In the puffs it must be eased instantly to keep the boat flat and then drawn in as the boat speed is established. The leach is highly loaded during this phase and the mainsheet will be heavy.
I find the rig needs to be correctlyset for this style. It doesn't work if the rig is not able to flex in the gusts. So on my boat I could have more power by tightening the lowers but then I find it staggers in the gusts rather than accelerates (its pretty subtle but with experience it is noticeable). A little bit of mast bend and flexibility helps the boat naturally open its leach in the gusts and provides a transition which gives the crew time to get in and out and keep the boat flat.
|
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 11 Sep 05 at 12:11am
That is a good point ... it takes for fitness and strength to be a good footer ... that's another reason why I prefer to sail high.
-------------
|
Posted By: Calum_Reid
Date Posted: 13 Sep 05 at 9:56pm
We used to be what has been described as stuffers in the 400 but we were once left for dead when it was windy and there was big waves so we now sail lower (footed off) as soon as we can hike. When it's windy, on both flat water and in big waves we can foot off along was and so long as your boat is flat it just goes! The other thing about not pointing is your getting your foils working and so you dont loose ground to leward if a gust comes through and also u dont dig into a wave and slow down in the same way.
-------------
|
Posted By: damp_freddie
Date Posted: 21 Oct 05 at 10:50pm
this is actually an excellent question for this forum, with some very well informed replies.
Here is my tuppence worth
Firstly, in all boats it is important to get moving at a good pace below 'high' pointing with the wind anaywhere from abeam to just 'cracked off'
This will get the centre board creating lift- vital for VMG- and it is important as you now work the boat up to the higher pointing to keep the flow attached by driving in smooth movements.
Sails are easier to adjust as you maneovre, but it is easy to stall out
the dagger board in the thicker stuff under the hull!
Secondly we lack the instrumentation of keel boats ( thankfully! I think even tacktick should be banned but hey that's my opinion ;-) )
Many of them have a VMG display or use a table of target upwind speeds
to wind stregnth stuck to the bulkhead. When boat speed is higher than
optimal for a wind sttregnth, they point up using leech tension on the
main and maybe trimming the job in and inward on barber hauler.
Conversley if too slow, they will have a good look around and check the
wind is not lower now, all else being well set.
How in the name of Auld Nick do you achieve this VMG display on a dinghy?
Presuming pre-upwind planing conditions or, like the heavy RS4oo, a
boat which is displacement up wind. When we get the boat moving
at a good lick for the conditions,it is important to get the crew weight out and optimised so the boat feels like it is falling over ontop of you! Then it is flat!
Using leech tension and rudder (or lee-heel and rudder) the boat is worked up onto the wind. The VMG indicator is simple-
the bow and quarter waves should leave from the ends of the boat ie the
flow of the max velocity displacement is attached to the
extremities of the hull (ie correct wetted area).
If there is a decent wind but the qaurter wave (back most wave of the
two the boat makes, ) is leaving far forward from the stern then chances are you are sailing too high-
bear off using only rudder and see if the top most tell tale begins to
break more or less frequently- Sail to 50-60+% 'breaking' ie going
behind the sail.
If converesely you are begining to escape your quarter wave and 'climb the hill' of the bow wave ie moving towards planing, then you can point higher to attach the wave to your stern area again. On a fast boat it may be time to plane upwind and even bear away to pop it onto the plane!
In v.light airs you can assume that the quarter wave comes from a
wetted area point far forward of the stern, given you are trimming the
wieght correctly forward. This can also show good boat speed and when
to go higher or lower as it increases in size or decreases.
|
Posted By: Calum_Reid
Date Posted: 21 Oct 05 at 11:01pm
When we were out last sunday in big waves and big wind we were sailing cracked off a little and then a skwall came through and i let the jib out big style at this point it was set for reaching the boat just accelerated and didnt loose pointing at all! It was very very windy and the wind hadnt swung!!
-------------
|
Posted By: damp_freddie
Date Posted: 21 Oct 05 at 11:29pm
Originally posted by Calum_Reid
When we were out last sunday in big waves and big wind we were sailing cracked off a little and then a skwall came through and i let the jib out big style at this point it was set for reaching the boat just accelerated and didnt loose pointing at all! It was very very windy and the wind hadnt swung!! |
yeah, the apparent wind will go well aft. Also any boat will plane give hurricane Katrina, but a tasar will go upwind on the plane in 9 knts of breeze and a 49er in around 5 or 6.
|
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 28 Oct 05 at 8:58pm
Tasar??? 9 knots???
------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ -
Helensburgh S.C
http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine
|
Posted By: damp_freddie
Date Posted: 29 Oct 05 at 11:19am
Originally posted by 49erGBR735HSC
Tasar??? 9 knots??? |
The 'supernova NS14' as featured i 'High peformance sailing' is the
pre-production tasar. It's polar diagram and drag curve are the first
development path in the family towards the boat you sail, and probably
the even slippier hull in the new 59er.
20 years of development reduced the 'bump' in the drag curve until now
in tthe 9er boats it is almost linear between displacement and planing
With a light crew the tasar should be pointed up to 7knts wind speed
and then planed at around 9 knts! This is it's design wind and
thereafter it is being depowered. It is a tricky boat to sail
despite it's no trap' no spin' appearance. Bit like bass guitar.
Once I sailed one at DBSC with
a laser 4000 chap in a blow, 30 stone up. We walked all over the RS200s
and he said it felt pretty much as fast up wind on the plane as the
4000. We could choose to duck or go high over the 200s Off wind
we had better downwind VMG by running.
I believe there is one doing quite well - at your home club HSC!
|
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 30 Oct 05 at 6:38pm
Yeah, is that Graeme's boat your talking about? I was just a little bit sceptical about a Tasar hitting the plane in 9 knots but with a light crew it could be possible. The 49er hits the plane effectively just a little bit higher than the range you quoted, unless you are at the rear of the boat which creates a lot of drag by the hull digging in and is really slow. The technique that we use is to have our weight as far forward as possible and concentrate on having the rear edge of the boat just clear or kissing the water. The boat will plane easily but you've got to be careful that she's not in bow up mode just because of where the weight is biased on the boat. If your weight is forward it promotes bow down planing which is faster than having the bow up at unecesary height. Back to the Tasars, are the newer boats still using wing masts or have they moved on to gust responsive rigs?
------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ -
Helensburgh S.C
http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine
|
Posted By: damp_freddie
Date Posted: 02 Nov 05 at 8:25pm
Originally posted by 49erGBR735HSC
Back to the Tasars, are the newer boats still
using wing masts or have they moved on to gust responsive rigs? |
FBs suggestion of an automatic carbon rig was rejected by
the class, but they have accepted mylar sails which make it
look a lot more modern.
They actually will point like nothing pre-planing in flat water.
Nice for taking the bird out on, and I presume mr Busby does just that!?
I'm too heavy for them otherwise I'd have one. Obviously -given my rude
double posting- I am considering a 59er to take (ex) yachties out
on, or a sportsboat which are not far off the same price these days.
I presume you've read 'high performance sailing' by Frank? I believe he is writing a sequel.
|
|