RS 400, 600, 700 and 800 Nationals
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=979
Printed Date: 14 Aug 25 at 8:46pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: RS 400, 600, 700 and 800 Nationals
Posted By: Contender443
Subject: RS 400, 600, 700 and 800 Nationals
Date Posted: 01 Sep 05 at 11:33pm
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Does anyone know why the attendance at the RS 400, 600, 700 and 800 is down by so much in each class this year. RS 400 down 14 or 19% RS 600 down 14 or 40% RS 700 down 6 or 17% RS 800 down 19 or 27% These are down quite a lot compared to other classes (except the OK which was well down - Nationals too close to a Worlds?) I always thought Abersoch and Pwelli were popular destinations? Could it be the date? ------------- Bonnie Lass Contender 1764 |
Replies:
Posted By: simsy
Date Posted: 02 Sep 05 at 8:09pm
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Just what I heard But, 800's are predominantly sailed in the south, and if you go and host the nationals up in North Wales somewhere, it might just seem a bit far for certain people to go!?!?! |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Sep 05 at 11:15am
| Looking at the stats it seems as if last year was a very popular venue which distorts the numbers. However the 400 and 600 have been on the slide for a while. The typical SMOD class seems to have a peak after about three years and then lose popularity as other things become fashionable. |
Posted By: fizzicist
Date Posted: 03 Sep 05 at 7:49pm
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I think the 400 has lost a lot of sailors to the 200 as it's a big boys boat and I've heard a few people mentioning that they can't afford the time in the Gym to keep up the weight. Plus the 200 is a good husband&wife type class. A swift peek at the stats shows it to be up by 10% or so. The 600 lost a lot of people to the 700, which in turn lost a lot of people to the Musto Skiff. However used 600's are so cheap its just not true, so I'm sure the class will pick up just like the 300 has. The RS300 is looking reasonably healthy the pre-entered boats already outnumber this years 600 fleet. We now have a real shortage of second hand 300's, which is the only thing hampering growth - used values have strenghtened by 20-30% this year alone!
------------- Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in beer. |
Posted By: Calum_Reid
Date Posted: 03 Sep 05 at 7:53pm
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The 400's was down because of its timing (during scottish school term and last week of english holidays) and it had a very good attendance last year. Not that the timing stopped me taking a week of school. ------------- 
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Sep 05 at 8:39pm
| The funny thing about the 400 and weight is that it only seems to be needed on the sea. Inland - or at least at my club - the best weight seems to be quite a lot lighter, probably in the 22-24 stone region. The heavyweights really suffer offwind. Maybe the weight is only needed to get the boat upwind through waves? |
Posted By: Ian29937
Date Posted: 03 Sep 05 at 8:50pm
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The numbers were disappointing and certainly broke the trend in the 700's where attendances at the opens are generally up on last year. I think the long drive from the south coast may be part of it, but I think a bigger issue was the proximity to the La Rochelle Eurocup. I know it only felt like 5 minutes passed between returning from France and packing up the family for the 6 hour drive from Norfolk to Wales. A lot of the people who attended La Rochelle weren't at the Nationals and vice versa. For them I think it was probably an either/or situation. The numbers back this up as entries for the La Rochelle Eurocup were actually up 7 on the 2004 event which was Lake Garda, normally a crowd puller! It's a shame really as the event was great, with excellent race management and plenty of beach to amuse the family. On the water it was facinating watching Pete Greenhalgh, Jason Belben and neil Robinson slogging it out for the championship. |
Posted By: Calum_Reid
Date Posted: 03 Sep 05 at 9:05pm
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My dad and i only weigh about 23 stone and we are quick in wind and waves and not in the light stuff. Specky's crew this year was not big at all so they could only weigh about 22-23 stone and the helm of the 2nd placed boat was also little. U dont have to be heavy to do well in the waves and wind in a 400.
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Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 03 Sep 05 at 9:28pm
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I have noticed that the cllubs that have opted for a 400 fleet instead of a 200 one seem to be suffering now. Our 200 fleet is defiinatly growing but I have seen clubs where their 400 fleet took off well to start with but now they only have 1boat out every weekend (and not even that sometimes because there is no competition). when i asked them why they thought this was, it was mentioned that the boat was a bit big and that if they had had a 200 flett they didnt think that this would have happened. (but that the 200 would have stolen people from the lark fleet so that is why it wasnt introduced) ------------- http://theramblingsofmyinnergeek.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 04 Sep 05 at 10:11pm
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The RS 400 with a 22-24 stone crew - I didn't know one was allowed to sail it single handed! A two handed boat for heavy weights - 2 second row forwards (a rugby reference for those of you who play with round balls) - should accept about 36-38 stone - but even the Olympic heavy weight boat (the Star) doesn(t do that any more. Please let us have a true dinghy for non-dwarfs! 200 kg minimum crew weight would be about right.
Gordon
------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Adds
Date Posted: 05 Sep 05 at 12:42pm
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its called a 59er ------------- Cheers Dudes |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 05 Sep 05 at 2:11pm
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This trend in not new in some of the RS classes; take a look at the below graph (source: Y&Y nationals table) The 200 is solid and growing - the 300 seems to be stuck at the around 20 mark but the other classes seem to be doing less well. What would the same graph be of the tradional classes look like say. Enterprise, Phantom, GP14, Contender, Fireball As rough analogies for the RS classes. Interesting to see what the 700 did to the 600 ...
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Posted By: CJ..
Date Posted: 05 Sep 05 at 4:27pm
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That's incorrect. Ever heard of depowering the rig? If you're in the 22-24 stone range you do need to be fit and have good technique, however you benefit from better performance downwind and in lighter conditions. |
Posted By: CJ..
Date Posted: 05 Sep 05 at 4:29pm
Busy are we? |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 05 Sep 05 at 4:32pm
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2 minute job if you can drive Excel ... ------------- |
Posted By: CJ..
Date Posted: 05 Sep 05 at 5:05pm
Clearly you're an expert then having sailed them for a week. Admittedly 22 stone is on the edge when it's windy, however since they came out the whole rig set up has changed a lot. FYI: The current national champ sailed with just over 23 stone this year. |
Posted By: CJ..
Date Posted: 05 Sep 05 at 5:34pm
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Understood, and I agree with your final comment. I guess I was making the point that you don't need to be big to sail them quick! |
Posted By: ed490
Date Posted: 05 Sep 05 at 7:48pm
| Well, just sold my RS300. She was sold for the full asking price within 3 hours of going on the RS association website. Since then there have been several more e-mails asking about her. I would have kept her if I was sticking with singlehanders, and may well go back one day. |
Posted By: Calum_Reid
Date Posted: 06 Sep 05 at 8:42pm
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I would have said that at the last 2 nationals the average weight of teams would probably have been around the 23-25stone mark which is not alot more than what u've said. Even when its windy most are still competitive and not all are super fit. Yes you may be over powered and once you lear to sail the boat correctly you learn how to deal with this. when we started sailing we only had 29 or 20 stone max in the boat and we didnt struggle all that much. I would trust what C.J. has said because if his boat had held together then he may well have give specky a good run for his money this yr. -------------
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Posted By: billybigtime99
Date Posted: 09 Sep 05 at 5:19pm
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Has anybody else noticed that the 'learned' Mr Perkins appears to be being paid by the Musto Skiff people... Check out the shoestring bit... Its not exactly cricket now is it boys and girls ;-) What would happen if the Laser or RS marketting people got stuck in on these forums.. wouldn't there be a hoo hah |
Posted By: bigwavedave
Date Posted: 09 Sep 05 at 5:44pm
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Rick has been with the Musto Skiff from the early days. He has worked hard to promote the class and willingly shares his knowledge. He is fanatical about the class just as many other forum members are about their particular class. May I suggest that you read ALL the past threads before comming on here and sl*gging of a valuable and knowledgable member of this forum. So what if he is being paid, and I don't know if he is, OR even care. Read what he has to say and you will learn.
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Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 09 Sep 05 at 5:52pm
Unlike many on this forum I use my name as my ID and my footer declares any commercial involvement in the Musto Skiff. I am a volunteer on the MPSCA and I also do some work for Victor Boats. My posts are not emotional; I just give my own opinions which are usually backed with facts; which I am entitled to as this is an open forum. Rick PS Thanks Dave for your support.
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Posted By: Black no sugar
Date Posted: 09 Sep 05 at 6:38pm
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Bill wil get to know our ways of thinking soon, I'm sure... ------------- http://www.lancingsc.org.uk/index.html - Lancing SC 
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Good one, Rick!
Posted By: Mark Jardine
Date Posted: 09 Sep 05 at 8:04pm
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Billy 'big time' 99 If you want to remain a member on this forum I recommend you 'learn' a few things yourself first. Your comments are not welcome and you are close to being banned already. Mark Jardine |
Posted By: TonyL
Date Posted: 09 Sep 05 at 8:17pm
To paraphrase Michael Winner, Calm down dear, its only a forum. I actually didn't know that Guest#260 was doing PR for the MPS. Don't see why that's an issue as many of us have mixed work & play when it comes to sailing. However, unless I'm missing the point completely the mods response to Billy's comments appear over the top? |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 09 Sep 05 at 8:41pm
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Let's all just "let it lie" and move on ... ------------- |
Posted By: fizzicist
Date Posted: 14 Sep 05 at 8:53pm
You may want to change that graph to represent the 40% growth in the Nationals numbers for the 300 this year ;) ------------- Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in beer. |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 14 Sep 05 at 10:07pm
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Yep the 300 did well; it was declared as an estimate. What is driving the revival?
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Posted By: Jamie600
Date Posted: 15 Sep 05 at 11:51am
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From what I can see (as an ex-300 sailor), people who first bought the boat thinking that they were easy to sail have sold them, the second hand boats dropped down to ridiculously cheap prices, new people bought them, however this time with their eyes open, knowing it is a difficult boat to sail, and have now learned to sail them.
Now that people know what they are getting, the class is full of enthusiastic, talented sailors who love the boat, and hopefully will stay that way. The RS600 prices have gone a similar way, although we are waiting for the new influx of sailors to get confident enough to attend opens and nationals, then hopefully we will go the same way. |
Posted By: 2wiresorseat
Date Posted: 15 Sep 05 at 4:51pm
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Hmmm, what happened to all the bigger lasers? I don't want to sound nasty, but I don't think that the majority of the RS boats have, or were intended to have, a whole lot of long-term integrity. Maybe, just maybe, they'll only last untill the next, better, fantastic plastic comes around the corner. I have no idea what I'm talking about, this is just gentle speculation. |
Posted By: Calum_Reid
Date Posted: 15 Sep 05 at 5:10pm
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I think reason the 300 is having a revival is people now know how hard they are to sail and also due to the enthusiasim of there class members. Also younger people who are looking to move on from a laser but dont fancy a double hander are starting to consider them e.g. John Wilson first youth at nats only had it 6 months but going very quick. The truth is once you've had a shot you'l either love it or hate it forever. -------------
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Posted By: Mark Jardine
Date Posted: 15 Sep 05 at 5:15pm
So a good name for an RS300 would be Marmite! 
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Posted By: Black no sugar
Date Posted: 15 Sep 05 at 5:46pm
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Yuk, imagine the paintjob they'd do on it! ------------- http://www.lancingsc.org.uk/index.html - Lancing SC
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Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 15 Sep 05 at 7:34pm
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I hate marmite - the sight of it on bread always reminds me of a "dirty protest" Good luck to the 300 guys - will this revive new boat sales? ------------- |
Posted By: ed490
Date Posted: 17 Sep 05 at 2:28pm
| It has done to some extent, 2 batches of 5 built this year (whilst not a huge number, it's more than recent years) |
Posted By: Adds
Date Posted: 20 Sep 05 at 12:44pm
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What happened to the Musto Skiff's at their inlands I heard they only got about 14 boats. Is this true? ------------- Cheers Dudes |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 20 Sep 05 at 1:26pm
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[QUOTE=Guest#260] I hate marmite - the sight of it on bread always
Good luck to the 300 guys - will this revive new boat sales? [/QUOTE] You spent a lot of time in the 'H' block then Rick?  ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 20 Sep 05 at 1:36pm
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i think it is a combanshon of two things most of the boat in the rs rang have rivals now which will effect numbers but i think there is a wider problem i think we are strugaling to get the younger people in to the sport it not just the rs number that are geting smaller most fleet or handy cap events are i think its because there is a lot more choice of activates for people to do other than sailing we all love the sport but if you look at it from people out side it they say why do you want to sit on a boat all day getting could and wet people do not understand what it is really like so it is a lake of people genaly in the sport not just in one fleet or so ------------- |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 20 Sep 05 at 1:59pm
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Fortunatly not but I do watch the news ... ------------- |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 20 Sep 05 at 2:01pm
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Yep; I think a combination of half full Datchet and a light wind forecast put people of travelling. Rick ------------- |
Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 20 Sep 05 at 2:18pm
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We only got 6 49ers!!! Jon ------------- http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 - |
Posted By: fizzicist
Date Posted: 20 Sep 05 at 6:33pm
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A lot of the reasons behind the 300 revival have already been mentioned; it was sold to the wrong target market initially and got an undeserved repuation for being an ill mannered boat to sail. (and I don't mean it swears a lot). The people sailing it now have come from a variety of classes - Lasers, Contenders, RS600's, RS400's, etc etc. The class is a very friendly, open and enthusiastic group who all share the same view of the boat 'it just puts a smile on your face'. The boat carries a wide range of weights (Nationals sailors ranged from 57Kgs to 105Kgs) and there is enough demand out there for used boats that prices are bouyant enough for some owners to swap for new boats, despite the fact that older one's are still as quick as new ones. It's certainly a marmite boat, but most people who know what they're doing will love it if they have a go - there's a whole list of people willing to lend their boat for a demo sail on the 300 website: http://www.rs300.com - www.rs300.com Here endeth the shameless promotion - I'm not affiliated with LDC or anything; I bought a 300 last year and it's totally rejuvinated my love for the sport - it's one of the best, if not the best boat I've ever experienced! ------------- Not all chemicals are bad. Without chemicals such as hydrogen and oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in beer. |
Posted By: ed490
Date Posted: 22 Sep 05 at 5:12pm
| Apparently the latest batch is 8 RS300s and most of them have already been sold. The future looks good for 300s |