We made the decision not to race on Friday afternoon simply because the forecast looked bad (40 knots plus on some websites) and we didn't want to spend 3 hours in the car only to arrive and feel it was too windy/have our class cancelled. Also, we didn't want to get round the back of the island and have to deal with that much wind - J80's don't have reefing points in the main or carry smaller headsails so it might have been a bit difficult.

I think that the organisers have become way to cautious after last years event. Yes, some people had problems but with 1.5k + boats out in a that much wind then it's just inevitable. 

Very poor decision, it hardly helps to throw off the stereotype that sailing is a boring sport, does it? >_<

 

I don't see what the problem is as events get cancelled all the time and there are always someone who is unhappy.

Also as I see it the small sports boats are not the ones that caused the biggest problem last year, its unprepared cruisers who only ever do this race each year and the trimarans which caused the most problems in last years very windy race. 

Its interesting to contrast this with the RORC Eddystone race the weekend before, thee race was started in 38knts and of about 40 entrants only 15 showed up to the line and only 3 managed to finish.  But the important thing is that RORC still ran the race and left it up to the skippers, as it should be. In the end this descision was pointless as many went round anyway (and got in our bloody way, which is another rant) but without anyone knowing who went round and who didnt so they were less safe it there was a problem.  

Looks like it was pretty breezy around the back of the needles!

But my main point is that this decision made no sense, in my experience the sports boats tend to be far more experienced and far more prepared for this race than most in the cruiser classes. Also skippers are far more likely to call it off as they recognise the challenge this race is.

The American incidents can hardly be cited as a reason as they all involved boats that would still have been allowed to race. A large number of the cancelled classes continued round anyway and had a fantastic day, but there was no record of them being out there so if something had gone wrong it would have been a far more dangerous situation.

 

1) the consistency of the cancellation - other fleets such as the 1/4 tonners, J/24s and much smaller vessels with a lot lower stability factor were allowed to complete the race   
2) that there was no consultation between the PRO/ISC with a J/80 class representative prior to the decision to cancel

As GBR940 said, why ban J/80's when you let quarter tonners go round!

And the inaccuracies of forecasts is precisely why it should be left with the skippers to decide. It saves the organisers looking silly when the forecast hurricane never arrives. Do they seriously think that any J/80 owner who was out there that weekend hadn't seen a forecast? And yet they felt they knew more about the suitability of the conditions than the boats owners.

So - I'm making assumptions here - the main difference between the smaller ISC/IRC boats and the sportsboats is that some sportsboats don't have lifelines, which might have been a factor in the decision. 

I'm not saying it was the right decision (Whether the decision was right or not is a very personal opinion IMHO). Obviously, some sportsboats went round without problems. I'm saying that I don't think it was an unreasonable decision - even though people were disappointed. 

And whilst the idea that it's entirely and 100% the skipper's decision is all well and good, I don't think the world really works that way any more. Even RORC postpone races in the face of a poor forecast - see Myth of Malham this year, and Fastnet in 2007 (25hr postponement). 

I am not saying that the decision was right, i think it was very wrong, but bring quarter tonners into the argument is not really a valid reason that j80s should have sailed.  They should, because the weather really wasnt bad at all. Not because some other classes did....

 

Did I say it was an offshore boat? Just because the jib has a zip luff doesn't make it unseaworthy either!  Fact is that we made it round without even broaching once, the only reason we changed jibs was to save the £3000 3DI jib for a more important race against some other boats.  If we could hold onto our number 1 jib on that boat then it really wasnt very windy!!! 

The other point to make clear is that RTI is not an offshore race, you never leave sight of land, unless you are doing something seriously wrong! It also only takes between 5 and 10 hours for the boats entered in the sportsboat fleet, (notice its not called a dayboat fleet, you have to meet a lot of rules to even do the race) so there should in theory be no night sailing. 

I went round on a sportsboat, so who are you going to believe? The muppets on cruising boats that should be left in the marina or someone who can actually sail, on a boat that should have been allowed to race? We saw some particularly scary sailing from some very big and fast boats, these are the people who shouldnt be allowed to race. We had a professional sailor helming the boat and a very quick crew, watching 45 footers wiping out while we didnt even come close to broaching was amusing.  Also very indicative of the incredibly low standard of sailing in this country, compared to say France, where competency reaches much further down the results board!

We live in different times and unsurprisingly the RRS has yet to catch up.  Whilst I would love to support the notion that it is solely the skipper's responsibility, there is also a duty of care (however flimsily worded and understood) with the race office and if they canned it for certain fleets, they probably did so for good reason at the point a decision needed to be reached.

You don't understand, I do not mind them sailing, but when well sailed fleets are not allowed to race but an unsafe team aboard a "safe" boat are allowed then it doesn't look good does it? 

Why did I want to take part? Well, because the boat is awesome, the satisfaction of cruising past 45 and 50 footers in a boat that costs about the same as their mainsail is really something! No other boat comes close to the bang for bucks! Not even dinghies, the power of the beast is unreal! 

Why don't the sportsboats organise their own RTI? Well, because they don't need to, they should be allowed to race in the real round the island seeing as they meet all the safety requirements. Why allow them in the first place if there is a risk of them being abandoned. They paid their entry just like every other boat out there, so why not let them race if they feel they are able to. You sign a declaration on entry saying that you are competent, unless you lied like half the cruising boats then you should be able to sail round the island like everyone else!

As it turned out we did not lose any crew overboard. Didn't have a reason to, because we were well in control.  Venomous lost a crew member overboard and they are about 46 foot I think, they retired and their crew member was picked up by a Farr 45. The man overboard was a non sailor, so perhaps should not have been sailing.  This is my point, it is not really the boat, it is the standard of the crew that dictates safety.  Normally a better crew are more likely to know their limits, so why not leave it up to the crews to decide.  It is not like this decision was down to the race officer for all the 45 footers that went round. They made the decision and in a number of cases, I think the wrong decision was made.  In our case, we made the right decision to go round, and it was great fun! 

Bear in mind that it is nearly impossible to capsize cool runnings, the boat weighs 750 kgs, with a 400kg bulb keel at a draft of 2.2m. A 3m beam makes the boat even more stable.  You can step on the side of this boat at the dock and it does not move in the water, it is probably more stable than most 40 footers. A very clever boat proving that wide is fast both upwind and down if you can make it light enough. The boat is also pretty much unsinkable. The hatch was kept sealed closed all the way round. So again, explain to me why we shouldn't have gone round, also, we got a finish as we appeared in 11th on the line honours results.  

What do you suppose jackstays and harnesses would achieve when you are doing 20+ knots, slowly being beaten to death by pounding waves, to be honest I would rather be floating away waiting to be picked up than beaten to death by the hull!

I agree with some of your points but even I've gotta say your coming across badly here, sounds like you have a serious chip on your shoulder about the size of your boat. Of course your boat can capsize because the reason you have all that bulb weight is because you've also put a massive rig on it.

Looking at the sportsboat class, there were 6 modified J80s without guard rails and 2 RS Elites (of 15 entries). Deciding that it's best to keep them that lot away from the back of the island in a forecast 30 kts sounds like a fairly straightforward decision to me. 

The rig isnt really that big, the boat is just very efficient. 7m^2 wing mast helps with that.  As for having a chip on my shoulder, no, it isnt my boat. I could have gone round on a 45 footer if i wanted, but much more fun on the beast! 

You also seem to be missing the fact that it is a one design boat, not a one off. That is just how they are, our rig is the same as everyone elses.

No real safe havens between the Needles and Wotton Creek. Ventnor is a tiny drying harbour, entrance to Bembridge and Ryde is tide dependant. Between the Needles and St Catherines is 10 miles of lee shore. 

 

The other thing you may like to think about when you "go round anyway" is the other competitors - the sports boats who did that were making no attempt at all to keep clear of the boats who WERE racing - we had our start obstructed and then had to take action a few more times to dodge selfish prats who seemed to have conveniently forgotten that boats not racing are supposed to keep clear of those who are

So there you go- everyone's happy.  The race office rightly made a call in the favour of safety (21st century litigation / death by press culture, can't blame them really), you still exercised your god given human right to sail the oceans at your own risk, they even gave you a hoot as you 'finished' and you can now come on Y&Y to make it absolutely, abundantly clear that you guys did really well despite the call to bin your racing.

I would probably let it drop now though, as at the end of the day the folks that run race offices are also giving up their free time and you'll need them to come back and do it again soon enough.  None of them would like to think they 'ruined anyone's day', and in truth they didn't- you still got to take the pocket rocket around under your own volition, whilst they appear to have maintained an exemplary safety record for that many boats in that tighter a space with that much wind and sea running.... good shout on both of you.

Originally posted by Smithy The other thing you may like to think about when you "go round anyway" is the other competitors - the sports boats who did that were making no attempt at all to keep clear of the boats who WERE racing - we had our start obstructed and then had to take action a few more times to dodge selfish prats who seemed to have conveniently forgotten that boats not racing are supposed to keep clear of those who are.

Racing is defined: Racing A boat is racing from her preparatory signal until she finishes and clears the finishing line and marks or retires, or until the race committee signals a general recall, postponement or abandonment.

Because racing for sportsboats was abandoned, part 2 of the RRS (including the preamble, and 23.1) didn't apply to them. The only rules governing right of way between sportsboats going around and the racing fleet were IRPCAS. *

[/Pedant rule hat]

* Which is not to say that as a racing sailor, I don't think that keeping clear of racing boats when cruising is the right and proper thing to do. I do so think. However, not everybody thinks similarly. Check out any relevant thread on ybw. 

 

As for this stupid argument about racing v cruising - what given right does a racer ever have over a cruising boat at any time...RRS only apply to the event but on the water the ICRPAS remain enforced at all times and take precedent.

 

Rant over...breath and relax -- woosaarr!!

 

Ok I agree you should have been allowed to race but we also got annoyed by sportsboats getting in our way round the course when they weren't racing for anything. I know there are no rules to say you should but as racers yourselves how many times have you been annoyed by a cruiser stopping you tacking/getting on your wind etc. etc. It just seems that as racers who had suddenly been converted to cruisers many boats did exactly the things they moan about when they are racing.

If you were not prepared to go around regardless, as per Cool Runnings, then it strikes me that the decision was probably the correct call for you anyway?  

With regards the entry fee... I guess it comes with the territory and your own personal POV.  I know from running events in the past that we did whatever we could to ensure we didn't have to refund entries on the grounds of a poor weather.... it cripples club budgets and can ruin events from running in the future.  

I take this as part and parcel of the risks of participating in a weather dependent sport- and I'd much rather share that risk with all the other competitors through the combined entry fees, than find organisers are 'put out of business' because the entire financial risk falls on them. 

Sorry if we got in your way but we were racing, you must remember that you are not just racing in your class start but also in the overall line honours race.  Any boat is allowed to start at the time of the first gun, provided they have entered, if they want to go for line honours. So, that is what we did, we were racing, as were every other boat out there who started.

If you really think ISC stink, I'd suggest you form your own RTI as part of your class programme.

 

Sh*t happens...... get over it.

 

Having said that I do sympathise that you missed your day out but its not the ISCs fault it was to windy. Huge amounts of time and effort go into organising any event and if the weathers not right on the day no one should expect a refund. A few years ago it was a drifter and everyone rafted up at the needles. Many retired, motored out of trouble and carried on RTI some went home. Should the ISC have refunded entry fees because the weather spoilt peoples fun? I think not.

Cite, please. I don't believe that you're correct. 

Going back to a previous point about not being clipped on. This is not an offshore race, so why should we need to clip on.  Have a watch of this video, explain to me how we are meant to slow that boat down to a speed mentioned in the video. Trust me, there is no way to stop this thing!  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUx6oZTCQc8&feature=player_embedded#! - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUx6oZTCQc8&feature=player_embedded#!

Don't moan at us for being unsafe, it was the Olympic hot shots on Kolga that weren't wearing their life jackets despite Y flag flying http://image2.roundtheisland.org.uk/web/photos/2012/ngr/lowres/080008.jpg 

This year saw plenty of SB3's, J80's and Sportsboats still going around. Good on you guys :)

On the water we saw 30knots a couple of times, but generally it was a lot less.

Peliminary list of finishers, not final results. I can find no reference to a line honours board in any documentation. The only reference to line honours in the SI refers to prizes. RRS 90.2 - no SIs, no race. 

  

No one would have had any problems with certain classes being cancelled had it actually been too windy but realistically it wasn't and that's what has got peoples backs up. The J80 is certified to sail in winds of up to 41 knots and waves up to 13ft in 'conditions which may be encountered on offshore voyages of sufficient length or on coasts where shelter may not always be immediately available'. That is far from the conditions which were actually seen on the water. Other boats which were less seaworthy and stable were still allowed to race which makes no sense. People are expecting compensation or at least an apology/acknowledgement of a mistake because they feel that the situation was handled incorrectly and inconsistently. I can understand that they need to cater for everyones safety and make sure that they do their best to stop people from getting into trouble but most of us just think they've gone about it in the wrong way.

That would concur with the 30 knot gusts we got at Hayling then.

No because no weather forecaster in their right mind is going to risk losing all credibility by claiming to guarantee something that they cannot. Raymarine seemed to be taken on as the official forecasters for the event so I would assume that ISC would be taking into consideration what they said and that was (from memory) that winds in the 30 knot region were the max that was likely to be experienced and on the actual day of the event several other forecasters were saying very similar things. Those conditions are well within the capability of a J80. If you start cancelling events or class starts simply because there is a slight chance that forecasts have been wrong and that you might end up with nasty weather then people are just going to stop bothering to travel to events. Unless there is a significant chance that weather beyond the capabilities of a boat is going to be experienced then it should be left to the owner to decide whether they can handle it. No doubt a majority of the sportsboat crews who had entered are hugely more experienced and competent that some of the cruising sailors who had entered and were still allowed to race.

I'm completely in agreement that they were correct to stop the less seaworthy boats going out. I wouldn't be happy doing it in a SB3 in 30 knots and big seas myself. But in that case, they should have just stopped specific types of boat from racing that were likely to be a liability and get into trouble. A J80 isn't going to behave as an SB3 or 'proper' sportsboat will in bad weather.

It's definitely the wrong move to refuse entries to sportsboats. At the moment that is where a lot of sailors are heading to, the number of 30 foot+ boats being raced is in decline and it's only going to keep heading that way until people can afford it again. 

We decided on the way round that next year the boat would be entered in the ISC class as it is possible to meet the regulations still. That way you are pretty much guaranteed a race if anyone else gets one. 

I wouldn't really call the J80 a sportsboat either. It was abandoned as its own class, not a sportsboat. There were some racing in the IRC sportsboat class (a bit of an oxymoron) but they were not fitted with lifelines and are used for match racing.  As far as I know there is no such thing as an IRC sportsboat!?  

Would you like your thread shaken or stirred? 

Sorry, that was a touch vague on my part. By 'specific boats' I mean boats which aren't going to be able to cope by themselves should the weather be bad. 

Oh I'm all for allowing everyone who wants to do the race to enter, please don't think I'm against that. I'm just saying that the conditions weren't severe enough to warrant a decision not to allow J80's to race.

The relevant bits from the NOR for those that haven't seen them, not sure where J/80's fall though as they have full compliant lifelines. Looks like no one is getting money back though.

Originally posted by RTI NOR 8.5 No entry fees will be refunded in the event of the Race,  a fleet or a class being cancelled or abandoned.

"8. All spectator craft not taking part in the race are to keep well clear of the start area or are to proceed to one of the designated holding areas, as depicted on Chartlet 1, and keep clear of the Main Navigational Channel"

 

I small sportsboat or multi can be a very noisy place in a F5/6 and you will be concentrating on your start and watching for other boats.

Because the J80 is so very different from the open cockpit sports boats, and so much more seaworthy than the 1/4 tonners.

I wonder if this was a bad decision made on accurate information, or a sensible decison made on bad information/understanding.  Hard to understand anyone who knows the J80 making the call to abandon them and let 1/4 tonners race. 

There is a clip on there explaining why they made the decision.

Seems like a reasonable bloke and said why it was made.

I dont think the quarter tonners are cat 3 somehow! I happen to own one and know for a fact that it is hard enough to get to cat 4. For cat 3 do you not need liferafts and things? We definitely dont have any of that on board! The quarter ton cup is raced under Cat 5 and I would guess that most of the boats did not change their safety equipment between the cup and the round the island race. There was only a 2 day gap.  

Anyway, on a more positive note, here is a video of the "beast" - Cool Runnings, in action! 

We were equipped with the new WIFI go pro system with 2 cameras on board. Everything worked really smoothly but it does help if you put the memory cards in both the cameras!  So for this edition of the cool runnings story we are limited to bowsprit cam, which is still pretty cool!

[TUBE]3kqe2ost2b0&feature=player_embedded[/TUBE]

Wouldn't fancy it myself for RTI. Its just a big dingy!

Probably the most tiring boat I have sailed for a while. Everything happens at skiff like speed with the loads of a yacht. Very tiring!

I'd have no complaints at jumping aboard and having a blast round the cans. Like I said it looks like a big dinghy....and thats not a bad thing!