Print Page | Close Window

LP refusing to charter

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8987
Printed Date: 10 Sep 25 at 11:00pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: LP refusing to charter
Posted By: sprayblond
Subject: LP refusing to charter
Date Posted: 11 Feb 12 at 6:57am
What will this mean for the 2012 championships...?

"At this point I don't think this is news or anything even resembling a big secret... LaserPerformance have decided they no longer want to participate in the boat charter business for major events like this. As I understand, the lone exception is here in North America for the High School and College Sailing singlehanded championships, but other than those they will not provide charter boats for any other events (US Sailing Singlehanded Champs, European Champs, World events, etc.).


Going forward LaserPerformance says it will focus entirely on boat building. All previous "support" functions once performed by LP will be transferred to their sister company McClaren which will handle sports marketing. Organizations once receiving "support" from LP can now apply for sponsorship to McClaren."



Replies:
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 11 Feb 12 at 7:52am
I'm not up on this story, but for me to hear that Laser is to concentrate boat building brings a wry smile.

They charge a fortune for stuff that you could very nearly make in your shed. To my idea their only strength is their support for the Class. 


Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 11 Feb 12 at 8:41am
It means those that sail lasers and want to travel will have to do what the rest of us do and ship them out to the venue in containers.  At least lasers are relatively easy to pack - short boats, two piece masts etc.

-------------
the same, but different...



Posted By: Quagers
Date Posted: 11 Feb 12 at 9:21am
Or just privately charter a hull when you get there and take your lines/sails/blades, far easier than shipping the whole boat and the hulls are all identical right Wink 


Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 11 Feb 12 at 10:29am
^

Doesn't scale though. I am not a Laser sailor but I was at HISC when several huge lorries turned up packed with charter hulls for the Worlds. Upwards of a hundred of them. They were all unpacked and prep'd - as far as I know by the HISC marine team. It's a big logistical exercise. As far as I'm aware a lot of the sailors doing Laser international events pay the charter fee and turn up for some convenience international racing somewhere in the world. Organising it all yourself is another proposition.

Seems to me the wheels are coming off Laser sailing in it's present form and honestly - it's the class organisation that has maintained demand for the boats. Who'd buy a new Laser in this day and age if it wasn't for the class? This seems a hugely self-destructive move by LP.

More discussion at http://sailingforums.com/threads/tight-tolerances.23471/page-2


Posted By: ex laser
Date Posted: 11 Feb 12 at 10:32am
does not sound good for the company or the class long term.

on the other hand if they go bust, the australians can take over and people can start sailing the kirby sail boat!!!Wink


-------------


Posted By: Max McCarthy
Date Posted: 11 Feb 12 at 10:48am
Or everyone will start sailing other boats :)

-------------
Vintage skol moth 3438


Posted By: ex laser
Date Posted: 11 Feb 12 at 11:15am
Originally posted by Max McCarthy

Or everyone will start sailing other boats :)


not going to happen. even if they stopped building boats tomorrow there are so many boats around, it would years to die.

anyway this is all to do with the power battle going on with the two builders, with the class assoc stuck in the middle.


-------------


Posted By: Max McCarthy
Date Posted: 11 Feb 12 at 11:17am
I know, my thoughts were of wishful thinking!

-------------
Vintage skol moth 3438


Posted By: cad99uk
Date Posted: 11 Feb 12 at 11:35am
The sister company being
 
About Maclaren – Maclaren is the preeminent global lifestyle brand leader for parenting products. For nearly 50 years Maclaren has stood for excellence, empowerment and innovation, and is best known for the creation of the first umbrella buggy which revolutionized baby transport. For more information, please visit http://www.maclarenbaby.com - www.maclarenbaby.com .
 
who are / used to be on the same site as LP at Long Buckby.


Posted By: Alistair426
Date Posted: 11 Feb 12 at 12:55pm
As ex-Laser says 'even if they stopped building boats tomorrow there are so many boats around, it would years to die'.
Unfortunately, it looks as though those who should have its commercial interests at heart are going to kill the goose. For good or bad, the one thing that keeps the Laser going is that, in general (don't start on about Aussie top sections, etc.), they are all the same. Joe Sailing-Public can go to a Laser Champs anywhere in the world and charter a new boat and stand a chance of doing as well as their skill allows. Think of all the folks who go to the Laser Masters Worlds because  they can charter a decent boat; they aren't going to travel across the world on the off-chance they haven't rented a pup.
There are enormous business opportunities for the likes of Rooster (Cockerill be his name!) to sell Laser parts once the class becomes de-regulated and people simply buy the best quality/value/performance part rather than the bit with the little red Laser sticker on it.
I'm no apologist for the Laser, in fact I've recently bought a Solo as my second boat as I couldn't face buying another Laser, but the Laser concept is, to my mind, a sound one and it will be a shame to see it fall apart. Unfortunately for the Laser itself, it isn't a good enough boat to survive outside of the concept which has made it so successful.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Feb 12 at 2:59pm
Its looking increasingly like a bad attack of beancounteritis at LPE isn't it...
Maybe its time for another fundamental rule change ballot, this one to change the class name and logo so that the Laser Trademark is no longer required...
Unfortunately if the class were to move towards an open manufacture model I suspect you'd find prices would increase rather than decrease: it always seem to me that vendors compete on performance rather than price.
I can just imagine the advertising copy now:

"Choose South Sails for your Laser
South sails are completely compliant with every aspect of the one design construction manual, but thanks to our painstaking care in build and exceptional quality control every South sail is just as fast as it can possibly be within the construction regulations, and will last better than any other brand.
South sails are the exclusive choice of our sponsored Laser team, featuring Tom Catapultsby, Paul Badison and Andy Baloney with the full rig, and Rage Pailey, Morni Van Nacker and Maris Sternmistress in the Radial team"


Posted By: Jon711
Date Posted: 11 Feb 12 at 3:16pm
Originally posted by JimC

Its looking increasingly like a bad attack of beancounteritis at LPE isn't it...
Maybe its time for another fundamental rule change ballot, this one to change the class name and logo so that the Laser Trademark is no longer required...
Unfortunately if the class were to move towards an open manufacture model I suspect you'd find prices would increase rather than decrease: it always seem to me that vendors compete on performance rather than price.
I can just imagine the advertising copy now:

"Choose South Sails for your Laser
South sails are completely compliant with every aspect of the one design construction manual, but thanks to our painstaking care in build and exceptional quality control every South sail is just as fast as it can possibly be within the construction regulations, and will last better than any other brand.
South sails are the exclusive choice of our sponsored Laser team, featuring Tom Catapultsby, Paul Badison and Andy Baloney with the full rig, and Rage Pailey, Morni Van Nacker and Maris Sternmistress in the Radial team"


Jim, A little more ice is needed, with the G&T....

That just sounded like a drunken rambling, and making no point...

Sorry if I have misread you, but that was gibberish....

Jon

-------------
Blaze 711


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 11 Feb 12 at 3:21pm
Makes sense to me Jon.

If you open it up to more manufacturers, the price wont come down. The manufacturers will just start competing on the perceived improvements in quality that they then allege to offer.


Posted By: sprayblond
Date Posted: 11 Feb 12 at 3:31pm
Disagree. Not if you define OD closely enough. When oppies moved to one design prices dropped by 30% and they had typically 8 manufacturers boats in the top 10.

Do you honestly think that Far East would hesitate one second in offering a cheaper boat? And yes, the  McLaughlins and Nautivelas would claim they had a better boat. But where it really matters at world championships it will be 100% charter anyway so who cares.


Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 11 Feb 12 at 3:46pm
and oppie sailing is now an arms race where sailors (parents) lash out £100s hoping to gain that extra second.  The champ package is now 2 grand more expensive than the club package.....people will always try to buy speed, especially in an olympic class, and the one design ethic just goes out the window.

-------------
the same, but different...



Posted By: sprayblond
Date Posted: 11 Feb 12 at 3:49pm
From Optiworlds:

CHEAPER AND MORE ONE DESIGN

The following article by Robert Wilkes appeared in the November 1998 issue of the ISAF newsletter.

A 5–year exercise by the International Optimist Association (IODA) has resulted in a price reduction averaging around 25% and a return to strict one–design principles.

The project started in 1992 when IODA president Helen Mary Wilkes was called before the I.Y.R.U. Executive. The Optimist, she was told, had become too expensive. What could the Class do to reduce prices?

The problem was both technical and commercial. The technical problem was a common one, one-design no longer meant one-design. Boats from certain builders were, or were perceived to be, faster than others. As a result they were exported worldwide, incurring transport costs and dealer mark-ups. A boat that cost $1,000 at the factory could sell for $3,000 from an exclusive agent on the other side of the World.

For commercial advice IODA consulted the professor of International Marketing at Dublin University. He felt that the price problem was very like in the pharmaceutical industry, like aspirin. Almost anyone could make the generic product: but customers paid highly for a "named brand" and could be sold a "NEW! IMPROVED!" product without any evidence that it was actually better. The result was a long distribution chain. The answer was to ensure that all builders made the same boat to a strict but freely available published specification.

First the specification had to be tightened. Fred Kats, a member of both the IODA Technical Committee and the IYRU CBC, led a team which devised a specification that could be built to tight tolerances by any competent builder and would be exactly the same speed as the best existing boats so the latter would not become obsolete. It was also essential to establish a system for measuring prototypes from each set of moulds including laminate samples, and to make regular checks thereafter.

Many, including highly-placed figures in the sailing world, believed that it could not be done. Everyone knew that the only way to get one-design boats was to have a single manufacturer or consortium. However in 1994 the IODA AGM decided to go ahead and secured IYRU approval. The 1995 Worlds saw the first production models. "Old-style" boats still won but there were "new-style" boats in top places.

The problems were not over. The first boats, maybe because of rarity value, were even more expensive than the old ones. Most builders adopted a "wait and see" policy and six months before the 1 March 1996 deadline for the changeover, only two had approved prototypes. The breakthrough came in November 1995 when the largest Optimist builder in the World secured approval. Suddenly there was a scramble to follow and nine builders got approval within the following seven months.

The strain on the prototype measurement system was intense. One of the Class International Measurers(IM's) David Harte, himself a qualified boatbuilder, effectively gave up other work and spent 86 nights abroad measuring prototypes and advising builders. Other IM's assisted, particularly with re-measurement. The cost was high, but fortunately IODA had secured major sponsorship from Nesquik.

By mid-1997 the International Measurers KNEW that all builders, by now 27 of them, were building identical boats. But would results prove this? The answer was a resounding yes! At the Europeans ten builders had boats in top ten places, boys and girls, and the Worlds was similar. The case was proved.

The effect on the market and prices has been immediate. If any builder's boat could win, why pay a premium? If a boat built in one's own country could compete with the best, why import? If this year's boat is identical to last year's and is durable, why buy new every season?

So, with now 30 builders in 23 countries on five continents, at least 40% of sailors are already buying boats built in their own country. And in most of the world prices in real terms are 25% lower than in 1992, a global saving of around US$1.25 million.

And the young sailors have a true one-design to sail.



Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 11 Feb 12 at 3:55pm
that's 14 years old!  And in the meantime, look what's sneaking up behind them:




-------------
the same, but different...



Posted By: oldarn
Date Posted: 12 Feb 12 at 8:15am
Originally posted by winging it

and oppie sailing is now an arms race where sailors (parents) lash out £100s hoping to gain that extra second.  The champ package is now 2 grand more expensive than the club package.....people will always try to buy speed, especially in an olympic class, and the one design ethic just goes out the window.
 
+1,  resulting in the beginning of the end!


-------------
thefastexcitingrunningasymmetric


Posted By: Rockhopper
Date Posted: 12 Feb 12 at 8:25am
Agree with the teras being an up and  coming class and cheap compared to the oppie and you can sail the tera against the tide unlike the oppie at our club  

-------------
Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest.
2004 national champ Laser5000
2007,2010,National Champ Rs Vareo


Posted By: marky
Date Posted: 12 Feb 12 at 9:20am
Originally posted by blueboy

^

Doesn't scale though. I am not a Laser sailor but I was at HISC when several huge lorries turned up packed with charter hulls for the Worlds. Upwards of a hundred of them. They were all unpacked and prep'd - as far as I know by the HISC marine team. It's a big logistical exercise. As far as I'm aware a lot of the sailors doing Laser international events pay the charter fee and turn up for some convenience international racing somewhere in the world. Organising it all yourself is another proposition. 
Neither HISC nor their Marine Team had anything to do with chartering of the Lasers at the Laser Worlds - or their upkeep. This logistical dilemma was down to Laser UK (Performance Sailcraft) who worked very closely with the Laser Class Association to charter the boats out to competitiors.  The charter boats were new when they arrived at Largs for the Radial Championships before they were shipped to HISC for the Laser Worlds and Laser Master Worlds. I believe all the charter boats were pre-sold before the events had started.


Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 12 Feb 12 at 9:23am
^

OK. I thought I saw members of the Marine team involved with unpacking. I am probably mistaken.


Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 12 Feb 12 at 6:26pm
Originally posted by sprayblond

What will this mean for the 2012 championships...?

"At this point I don't think this is news or anything even resembling a big secret... LaserPerformance have decided they no longer want to participate in the boat charter business for major events like this. As I understand, the lone exception is here in North America for the High School and College Sailing singlehanded championships, but other than those they will not provide charter boats for any other events (US Sailing Singlehanded Champs, European Champs, World events, etc.).


Going forward LaserPerformance says it will focus entirely on boat building. All previous "support" functions once performed by LP will be transferred to their sister company McClaren which will handle sports marketing. Organizations once receiving "support" from LP can now apply for sponsorship to McClaren."

Well, the men's and women's europeans don't even have an NOR yet.  The women's worlds are in the same state (germany). The men's worlds (aus) are already up and running.

That should tell you something.  I think the wheels might be about to fall off...



Posted By: sprayblond
Date Posted: 14 Feb 12 at 9:35am
How are they going to manage this for the championships in Argentina? 

Voyage time is around three weeks. Add one week for port clearing, handling and unloading and another week for loading and loading on board. That leaves one week i.e. boats would need to be lined up ready to go in the factory (US or UK) for departure  early next week which means ILCA should now know whether they have charter boats or not..?


Posted By: bert
Date Posted: 14 Feb 12 at 10:15am
Plus How do you think the Argentians might be treating any boats that might be the british boats/ sails/spars - passport control might also be interesting.

-------------
Phantom 1181
AC-227 IC 304
blaze / halo 586




Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 14 Feb 12 at 12:30pm
You forget there is a licensed builder/dealer in Argentina now who I believe is loosely associated with PSA as opposed to LP so this may be a moot point at this point in time.
 
Also it is not LP are refusing to charter they are withdrawing from this side of the business and another company is taking over. Time will tell if this arrangement will work.
 
AFAIK all the charter boats supplied for major events have to be brand new and most are pre-sold anyway.


-------------
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 16 Feb 12 at 12:06pm
http://laserperformance.com/maclaren-sponsorship/maclaren-sailing-sponsorship-pr - more from mcclaren

-------------
the same, but different...



Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 16 Feb 12 at 12:47pm
Just to be careful, the firm is Maclaren, and is unrelated to the car manufacturer/racing team/technology company McLaren.

-------------
-_
Al


Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 16 Feb 12 at 1:43pm
sounds like maclaren have a perfect debt vehicle.... 

there's no irony lost in pushing your toddler around in a maclaren pushchair, pushing them afloat in a maclaren laser and finally getting their own kids to push them around in a maclaren wheelchair when their knees give out at 50!

nice healthy lifestyle brand alignment... no thanks, I'll stick with a bugaboo and RS boats.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 17 Feb 12 at 7:13am
Originally posted by jeffers

You forget there is a licensed builder/dealer in Argentina now who I believe is loosely associated with PSA as opposed to LP so this may be a moot point at this point in time.
 
Also it is not LP are refusing to charter they are withdrawing from this side of the business and another company is taking over. Time will tell if this arrangement will work.
 
AFAIK all the charter boats supplied for major events have to be brand new and most are pre-sold anyway.
 
I have since found out that the license in South America (as a region for Laser building) is actually held by LP and not PSA. There is a threat rumbling on about this over on the http://www.laserforum.org - Laser Forum if anyone has insomnia...
 
Apparently unless they get their act together it could have serious implications of the worlds event that is being held in Argentina....


-------------
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74



Print Page | Close Window

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz - http://www.webwizguide.com