Blatant pumping in Olympic sailing - OK with that?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Olympic Sailing
Forum Discription: The top end racing in our sport
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8763
Printed Date: 10 Aug 25 at 8:04pm
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Topic: Blatant pumping in Olympic sailing - OK with that?
Posted By: getafix
Subject: Blatant pumping in Olympic sailing - OK with that?
Date Posted: 19 Dec 11 at 5:27pm
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So watching the highlights from Perth while handing over the hard-earned to Rupert and the boys... struck by how much blatant pumping goes on nowadays in Olympic sailing. Now, I'm not against this blanket ban style, I think it adds an athletic dimension that would be missing otherwise in Finns and RSX, but when you see crews bouncing on 470 wires off the line, it does take a bit of getting used to... what do you think? |
Replies:
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 19 Dec 11 at 6:03pm
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Not exactly using the wind, is it...
By the way, getafix, not got any money from you yet... or is it a different, more Australian Rupert you refer too?! ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: SoggyBadger
Date Posted: 19 Dec 11 at 6:26pm
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It's Olympic sailing. It should be physically hard so let them pump.
------------- Best wishes from deep in the woods SB |
Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 19 Dec 11 at 6:29pm
| Paddling is also physically hard, so let them do that as well! |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 19 Dec 11 at 6:46pm
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My problem with this is that my old club had a huge windsurfing racing fleet. then they allowed pumping and within a year it was dead.
I get the while physical thing, but the cynical side of me says this is more to avoid protests and ill feeling than it is to make for better racing.
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Posted By: doeywizard
Date Posted: 19 Dec 11 at 7:31pm
| I think that pumping should be aloud in all classes over 15 knts, it would put even more of a physical element into sailing and make it even more technical to sail in stronger winds, it would increase work rate and make it even more competitive. |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 19 Dec 11 at 9:24pm
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The 600 class currently has a vote running to see if we should run a trial to allow pumping in class events for the run leg of our square course once the wind is around 10kn or more. I'm in favour of the idea, it seems to have worked well for the the Contender which is another great upwind/ reachin boats that can get a little stuck downwind in marginal waves. I hope we get to run the trial next year and see how it goes. I suspect that most people pump while running in single handers anyway - trying to copy the whole laser zig zag running thing but instead just pumping teh sail and not doing the zigzag! ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: SalsaPirates
Date Posted: 20 Dec 11 at 9:49am
| I am dead against it for mere mortal sailing and the trying to tie it to a windstrength just doesn't work inland. At our pond there is no such thing as 10 or 15 kts of wind. it is usually 1 kt gusting 20!!!! doesn't matter how hard it is blowing there are always some flat spots in shadow where pumping makes an enormous difference. If I wanted to fan my way around the racecource I would get a windsurfer. I dont remember the RYA five essentials including who can pump the hardest as a core skill ...... I know all the arguments about where do you draw the line and how do you police it when people are reluctant to protest in club racing .... but I would prefer to work toward a solution of clamping down on it than just let it be a free for all which to my mind would ruin the sport on ponds as there would only be 1 essential .. who can pump the best wins! |
Posted By: doeywizard
Date Posted: 20 Dec 11 at 10:07am
| don't you think it would put even more of an element of fitness into sailing? I do understand that it would be unpractical in a club such as yours, however what about in fleet racing? |
Posted By: Jaws
Date Posted: 20 Dec 11 at 10:43am
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Does everyone want a big physical element? If all I wanted was to a physical challenge, why go to the hassle of adding sails? Swimming, running, weightlifting etc. offer that sort of exercise. I'd say most sailors are more interested in the technical element of the sport that sets sailing apart from the straight athletic sports. By all means have some physicality, and certainly in some classes it should be promoted, but there needs to be something for everyone and that most certainly isn't pumping. ------------- RS600 794 |
Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 20 Dec 11 at 10:51am
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It's the olympics FFS... if getting out the back and swimming is more efficient, then sod it, as long as they're not switching their yellow wellies for flippers then I can't see the problem... winner takes all.
We're not obliged to run the same rules at local level. So you and your club decide what works for you- ban pumping if you want, it works in the Kona Class internationally. That said, if you and the rest of knee-wrecker boys all decide that your wednesday night drifters should turn into pumpfests and rocking competitions, then really where's the harm if everyone agrees? At least everyone would know where they stand, rather than trying to enforce an unenforceable rule and arguing about it in the bar after the event. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 20 Dec 11 at 11:31am
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Should weightlifters allow a crane to take some of the weight? Or maybe rowers could attach a seagull engine to give them a little boost? This is supposed to be a sport which uses the wind and skill to propel your boat forwards faster than other people, not a sport about who has ingested the most steroids without being caught out in a blood test, and so is able to pump their boat round the course for longer than everybody else.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 20 Dec 11 at 11:39am
careful now fella, I wouldn't say anything on here about steroid abuse amongst all athletes in sailing that you wouldn't be prepared to say to their faces..... they spend a lot of time working on that fitness, pumping iron, not popping pills |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 20 Dec 11 at 12:09pm
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Look at the IJ for Perth, it seems on the Lasers had OTW jury (looking at the penalties) perhaps they need to introduce OTW judging for all Olympic classes?
Or perhaps they were there and saw no issue with what was going on? ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: ham4sand
Date Posted: 20 Dec 11 at 12:30pm
pumping can be pretty skillfull actually ------------- John Hamilton cherub 2645 - cheese before bedtime cherub 3209 - anatidaephobia laser 176847 - kiss this [FORSALE] |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 20 Dec 11 at 12:37pm
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I also don't agree with this steroid malarky either....if its strong enough eind to plane then the benefits are massivly reduced if not negated completely. For you average joe i would say that pumping is easier to police - in the right circumstances that teh weaving that the lasers do to in essence create the same effect. Would you say the the fittest bloke is sailing unfairly 'cos they can hike harder upwind for longer? And if you get pumping wrong in some boats you'll end up killing the boat completely. Its an odd scenario - you all complain that a solo cheats and rocks and rolls its way down wind yet the Olympic sailors who can legitimately do it you lambaste as cheat ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 20 Dec 11 at 12:59pm
absolutely not, but then I didn't say that a dinghy should be allowed an engine either, I simply meant that an athletic using whatever physically kinetic means necessary, should aim to be faster around the course than his/her counterpart. Pumping and fitness is no match for superior tactical awareness and boat handling, but the Olympics ought to test absolutely every facet of sailboat racing- including the pinnacle of kinetic movement. Pumping, properly anyway, is a very tricky skill to master.
You have defined what the sport is to you, which is fair enough and given the same view from your fellow club companions, then cool 'ban' pumping. Sailing at the Olympics can test the physical elements further without jeopardising what you do down the local duck pond... BTW- I doubt very much that even the most 'kinetic' of sailors in Team GBR would risk a piss test... steroids is cheating, pumping is not. I'm not really sure why steroids is even being discussed??? 
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Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 20 Dec 11 at 1:22pm
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The 470s and Finns switch off Rule 42 at 8 knots and ten knots respectively. There are flags to switch it 'off' and just as importantly back 'on'. It isn't a decision that has to be made at the start of the race and then can't be reversed, so if the wind dies at the end of the second leg (for example) it can be switched back on again from that mark onwards. For the boards I believe it is unlimited. ------------- Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard" Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile" |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 20 Dec 11 at 2:06pm
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What is sailing and what is not is defined in rule 42. Sailing is a sport in which a boat must"compete by using only the wind and water to increase, maintain or decrease her speed. Her crew may adjust the trim of the sailsand hull, and perform other acts of seamnaship, but shall not otherwise move their bodies to propel the boat." There is a list of prohibited actions, certain classes allow some of these prohibited actions when wind speed increases above a certain strength. However, the rest of rule 42 applies. Windsurfing changes the definition of sailing (see rule B2.1a. In many ways this creates a different sport (like rugby union and rugby league). Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 20 Dec 11 at 2:13pm
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Is pumping not just exaggerated trimming of the sails? ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 20 Dec 11 at 2:13pm
| That might be one interpretation, it might even be the official interpretation, Gordon; but I think if you asked what Joe Public thinks is sailing, they're not going to give two hoots if one guy's pumping n' ooching and one isn't. As an Olympic discipline, then I believe the rules of the game should maximise the physical aspects. Otherwise it's a phony representation of what the medal 'could' represent in true athletic terms. |
Posted By: timeintheboat
Date Posted: 20 Dec 11 at 3:57pm
No. Pumping de-skills sailing. getting the correct trim is all about skill. ------------- Like some other things - sailing is more enjoyable when you do it with someone else |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 20 Dec 11 at 4:03pm
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An interesting point of view - so the Olympic soccer tournament should allow the use of hands to play the ball so that the medal can be truly representative of the athleticism of the players! Or that Olympic walkers should be allowed to run because it is more athletic. Every sport is a social construct, with limits defined by those who play and administrate the sport. The rules can vary (can't remember us paying much attention to the offiside rule when playing football during school break) but esentially every sport has certain distinguishing features. Our sport has adopted, forbetter or for worse, the limits set out in rule 42. Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 20 Dec 11 at 4:08pm
I've seen boats pumping aggressively (and potentially illegally) but because they weren't doing it effectively, I've sailed right past them. Sometimes subtlety is required (oh, another skill). ------------- Steve B RS300 411 https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 20 Dec 11 at 4:17pm
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Yes pumping is a technique that can be learnt and perfected - like pushing before the ball is put into the scrum or soccer's artistic diving in the penalty area.... However, except in strictly limited circumstances pumping is not part of the sport of sailing as it is defined at present. ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 20 Dec 11 at 4:30pm
| We need someone here who knows a lot about board racing - paging [perish th thought! GRF... Its instructive to watch it, even though I don't understand the subtleties, but it seems fairly clear to me that skill and timing, whilst always important, comes a long way second to working your a**e off all the time. Paul Henderson's description of air rowing takes a lot of sense. You can't win wihout skill and 100% physical effort. I love the subtleties of gentle kinetics and I fear I sometimes go past the border of the rules, but allow unlimited pumping and those skills will be lost for ever because the guy who spends three hours in the gym every day and pumps continuously will always win. |
Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 20 Dec 11 at 5:06pm
------------- Steve B RS300 411 https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page |
Posted By: paolochilds
Date Posted: 20 Dec 11 at 5:12pm
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEQttj8E1b0 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEQttj8E1b0
What do you reckon? For the Olympics and in the right classes I can see it being good. That said I am against it for club/nationals racing. Not sure why, maybe because they are pro sailors and to be the best you need the complete package... Maybe because Ben is so good at it it makes it look awesome. Not sure. ------------- Paul Childs RS Sailing Sales Team and RS100 Class Development Officer |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 20 Dec 11 at 6:05pm
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Steve411 - you define the "strictly limited circumstances" in which pumping is allowed: once per wave or gust to initiate planing or surfing. Thus - no pumping if surfing or planing is not possible, no pumping once boat is surfing or planing (pumping to stay on the plane is not allowed). Any pumping outside these limits breaks rule 42.2a. Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: ham4sand
Date Posted: 20 Dec 11 at 8:41pm
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Gordon, I dont think this discussion is quite as much about adhereing to rule 42, as discussing the options and possibilities of allowing pumping through possible changes to the rule in the future? ------------- John Hamilton cherub 2645 - cheese before bedtime cherub 3209 - anatidaephobia laser 176847 - kiss this [FORSALE] |
Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 20 Dec 11 at 10:25pm
great vid Paul- 'part of the Olympic ideals, to be higher, faster, stronger...' sounds about right to me given the nature of what's being competed for at Olympic level, even if it's something we might temper on the clubs and open amateur circuits. |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 20 Dec 11 at 11:01pm
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My main point is that rule 42 effectively defines what is sailing.Go beyond the limits of rule 42 and you are no longer participating in the sport of sailing. Personally I believe that the modification that modifies rule 42 in certain wind conditions is not the best way forward for the sport. It is also dangerous to make an exception for Olympic classes as they represent a standard to which young sailors will aspire. Should the rules of soccer be different at the Olympics? Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 20 Dec 11 at 11:42pm
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The trouble is that rule 42 is not always understood/applied the same at different levels. I have been accused of illegal actions as part of a course alteration which have been perfectly OK at juried and umpired events. One can of course modify sailing style - but it's not quite as easy as that! One thing that is not well understood is that it is one pump per wave to "initiate" planing or surfing. If these 2 are already occurring then even a single pump is illegal. The observation of unrestricted pumping does blur this line. Gordon - I do recall being spoken to once that I had been close to crossing this line during an event. My own view was that although I was already planing I was also able to gain a further increase by initiating a surf which was assisted by a pump, and that therefore there was nothing out of order. The Umpire (note Team-racing) had had enough doubt on it not to penalise me. What would the latest guidance say?
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Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 21 Dec 11 at 9:38am
Fair point- but sailing has adapted over the years and the rules need to reflect this. Rightly or wrongly, boat performance is higher up the agenda- certainly at Olympic level- the justification for a women's skiff simply isn't there if you look at the demographics on the water globally. Okay it's chicken and egg, but my point is change happens, the rules need to adapt and the nature of the game will be defined as a result. Pumping makes the sport more physical and no question the correct technique will make the boat faster too. I really can't see the harm in any athlete aspiring to Olympic level knowing that these two facets will become more and more important. Paul Henderson's comments on air rowing which can be seen http://www.sailinganarchy.com/innerview/2007/paul_henderson.php - here on Sailing Anarchy are frankly out of date and spoken like a true dinosaur... on this basis, we should ban asymmetrics, or indeed any boat that 'noticeably' uses apparent wind, rather than true wind. he'd probably ban 'tidal lee bow' if he could 
Citing windsurf racing's demise as a direct result of not 'banning' pumping is also a little simplistic. There are a myriad of reasons windsurf racing declined, pumping might have had a small influence, but marketing, long-term appeal and the rise of a planing-only culture contributed far more- Graeme's better qualified to give you guys a more detailed picture, my only experience of trying to race boards is this... f**k it, racing's better in dinghies that actually go upwind- full stop |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 21 Dec 11 at 10:05am
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In reply to Sargesail: 1. Deciding whether a roll is commeasurate with a change of course is one of the most difficult tasks when judging rule 42. If a boat is heeled, changes course then is brought upright then this is legal AS LONG AS the heel bears some relation (in its timing and its amplitude) to the change of course. Any action that has the effect of a stroke of a paddle is almost certainly illegal. 2. We spent a long time debating this at an event this year. We concluded that the rules seemed to allow a boat that was already planing to pump to initiate surfing, but that pump broke rule 42, because it would be a repeated pump in regard to planing! The Jury included 5 IJs, including Judges with experience of Olympics, Americas Cup .... Gordon |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 21 Dec 11 at 10:13am
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Just read the Sailing Anarchy article. I agree with it totally, although I would nuance the comments on the demise of board sailing fleet racing. Boardsails are not necessarily the best support for fleet racing - and I always thought board sailing was all about getting away from restrictions, organisation etc.... In many ways boardsailing is more an offshoot of surfing. Gordon |
Posted By: bert
Date Posted: 21 Dec 11 at 11:45am
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Personally I`m with gordon & Paul Henderson completely & have no opinion on board sailing. ------------- Phantom 1181 AC-227 IC 304 blaze / halo 586 |
Posted By: timeintheboat
Date Posted: 21 Dec 11 at 12:45pm
+1 ------------- Like some other things - sailing is more enjoyable when you do it with someone else |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 21 Dec 11 at 1:16pm
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What no one seems to have mentioned is that the majority of club racers in particular are well into the masters age categories. Ignore Cadets and 4.7s and at our club we can as often as not have no one under 40 racing, with many being retired. Allowing air-rowing would fatally disadvantage those more senior sailors. In no time they would be gone and sailing clubs would be dead (remember that age group are often the ones who have the time and inclination to also actually RUN sailing clubs, whether in admin or organising youth sailing) So its quite simple - allow free pumping and completely kill dinghy sailing outside the 5-ring circus. I've a better idea; sailing would be better off in the UK if it was NOT in the Olympics. That way the RYA Zone squads would not, ruthlessly, burn-out 99.99% of its kids, losing most to the sport of sailing forever, just in the hope of finding another medalist and cementing the RYA jobs that elite money brings in. Given the choice, I'd forego the medals and have a thriving sport full of 18-35 year olds. That was how it used to be - only now that generation (mine) are the 50year olds. Or is it that the younger generation think that they only way they can overcome our knowledge and experience is to over-empasize brawn at the expense of brains? ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: chrisarnell1
Date Posted: 21 Dec 11 at 2:59pm
Couldn't disagree more A lot of kids get into the sport because of RYA funding for grass-roots sailing (Onboard, VCC, Team 15 etc). I don't know where you get 99.99% of kids "burning out" through the RYA squads but I think you're over-estimating the problem. Fact is, Olympic success drives the funding that supports us all. Losing sailing from the Olympics will have a huge impact on the support we receive at local clubs. For what it's worth I'm not a fan of unlimited pumping - it feels like a game change and not one of the better ones - especially at club level. ------------- RS300 393 OK GBR 21 |
Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 21 Dec 11 at 5:43pm
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I am confused by this thread, is the OP under the impression that they are cheating? They arent, this is allowed in the 470 class as mentioned earlier in this thread. If you knew this and dont like it then there are other classes which dont allow it so you can just follow them instead. This is not a new phenomenon and not just restricted to olympic classes. At the end of the day they are still using the wind, just a bit more efficiently than you can! ------------- |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 21 Dec 11 at 6:26pm
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The OP is simply asking whether we like the concept of pumping being allowed at Olympic level. The discussion has then spread, as it will, to other areas of sailing. Seems like a good area for discussion on a winter evening.
As to whether they are using the wind, I would disagree to a large extent. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: tickel
Date Posted: 21 Dec 11 at 7:08pm
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When spectating at the Byte Nationals I was also privileged to see a Finn qualifier. Finn and Byte on the same course....yes very funny particularly the size differential between helms. Anyway, Finn's are allowed to pump and because of this being tall is an advantage. Apparently shorties like Basher Ben are now at a considerable disadvantage and only those who duck through doors need bother to start. If general pumping is allowed will that mean that we will see an army of 6'6", 6 stone 12 year olds. In my opinion pumping is like hiking, to be discouraged on grounds of taste. ------------- tickel |
Posted By: tomoore1
Date Posted: 22 Dec 11 at 10:14am
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I know when I sailed my 300 in waves that a pump was required to get surfing. Once surfing the apparent wind went well forwards requiring rapid sheeting in followed by an equally large ease of the mainsheet as you dropped off the wave. Perfectly within the rules however easily construed as pumping.
I have also been shouted at for pumping the 300 upwind. Fact is that it is a very sensative boat that with my meagre 68-69kg at the time and the bigger rig required constant trimming in order to keep it heeled slightly to windward. Then there is downwind in the 300. It is a tippy boat and so you do roll around a bit, especially in changable winds. Needless to say, when offered a sail in the boat, those complaining declined. What I am saying, in a round about manner, is that in some situations perfectly legal movements are easily regarded as imparting kinetic energy into the boat. As such I believe that totally banning pumping would be counter productive and encourage large championships to be shaped by protests. The question is how far you allow kinetics to go. It would be interesting if g-meters were installed on a few raceboats to determine whether the effects of kinetics can be recorded or whether they just blend into the 'noise' of a boat bouncing through waves. If changes can be determined then you have a scientific basis on which to modify rules. Otherwise I am afriad it boils down to seamanship as you cannot monitor everyone on the water. ------------- Restoring Firefly 517 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 22 Dec 11 at 10:17am
| The 300 is delightfully responsive to kinetics: one of its many virtues. |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 22 Dec 11 at 10:25am
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It would be interesting if g-meters were installed on a few raceboats to determine whether the effects of kinetics can be recorded or whether they just blend into the 'noise' of a boat bouncing through waves. If changes can be determined then you have a scientific basis on which to modify rules. Otherwise I am afriad it boils down to seamanship as you cannot monitor everyone on the water. [/QUOTE]
Yes I'd love to run that experiment - and combine it with one where it is observed by IJs who press a button to indicate when they perceive an illegal "stroke of a paddle" movement.
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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 22 Dec 11 at 11:02am
To me this demonstrates why allowing unlimited pumping at the highest level is a good thing. It took a lot of debate to come up with an interpretation and that interpretation was equivocal, allowing the action on one hand and not on another. So lots of confusion even before you add a layer of perception. But to look at the specifics of what you had said above and to clarify, if my original question wasn't clear enough, I am talking about a boat which is planing by action of the wind alone, which does a single pump to initiate surfing. How is this "a repeated pump in regard to planing?" |
Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 22 Dec 11 at 11:10am
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My pov as a laser sailor is that the current "limited pumping" rules that we have are the best. While allowing unlimited kinetics makes the sport more athletic, I think it also makes it more forgiving when you get it wrong. Under the current rules, if you're trying to catch a wave but you have the boat heeled at slightly the wrong angle, have to push the tiller a little too much, and you just start to catch it but are dropping off then you're doomed. You've missed it. 1 full wavelength lost. With unlimited pumping you could just bounce on the deck a few times to stay on the wave and make up for your mistake - so you won't be punished as much for imperfect technique. You would still of course have the better pumpers going faster, but being a less good pumper wouldn't be as bad as it is now. At the moment you get one chance and one chance only, so it has to be perfect. That said, if I were to pitch up at a quiet backwater club and go downwind like I do at a qualifier, I doubt anybody would speak to me in the bar afterwards despite all my actions being legal. You also see less experienced sailors witness someone doing legal kinetics and retaliate with completely illegal kinetics because they don't understand the finer details of the rules.
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Posted By: Roger
Date Posted: 22 Dec 11 at 12:28pm
I realise Gordon has already commented on this, but below is a snip from the post nationals Scorpion newsletter that seems to address this issue following questions at the event.
SNIP......
One interesting rules query emerged during the session resulting from the wind and wave configuration which had
been experienced earlier in the day. The wind speed was around 18-20 knots and waves of varying height. The question was based on the interpretation of the exception rule 42.3(c) and was phrased as follows: Situation 1: The conditions are wind 18-20 kts with waves of varying height. A boat has been planing for sometime and the plane was initiated by a gust without a pump. A new steep wave travelling faster than the boat catches up with her and the boat pumps a sheet to initiate surfing. At no time does the boat cease planing. Is this situation covered by the exception rule 42.3(c)? Situation 2: The same except that the boat initiates planing by a sheet pump. Is this situation covered by theexception rule 42.3(c)? These situations were referred to Trevor Lewis, chair of the RYA Racing Rules Committee, who was unable to give an immediate ruling. The situations were then sent to the RYA Rules Advisory service which sought the opinion of the International Jury members who were on duty at the Olympic Test Event at Weymouth at the time. At the time of writing a formal written reply is awaited from ISAF but I understand that the ruling will conclude that these situations are not covered by the exception rule 42.3(c). In other words the terms planning and surfing are to be considered collectively and once a boat is either planing or surfing a single pull on any sheet breaks rule 42. Well done to the Scorpion fleet for bringing this query to the attention of the RYA and ISAF. STOP PRESS A reply has now been received from the RYA Rules Advisory Team in response to the rule 42 query above. The answer to both situations is: No.The explanation is as follows: Even if a boat is planing (surfing) she may pump once for each wave or gust to initiate surfing (planing). It is not quite so clear if the original planing (surfing) was also initiated by a pump on the same wave or gust. However, if you are surfing and you pump to initiate planing, the pump will also help maintain the surfing and that is not permitted. Similarly, if you are planing and you pump to initiate surfing, the pump will also help maintain the planing and that is not permitted either. So, while the words might permit the pump, in practice it is impossible to take advantage of the exception. .....END SNIP
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Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 22 Dec 11 at 12:51pm
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well it seems quite clear there is zero clarity, therefore the rules as they stand are a complete arse.. the simple approach of either 'allow pumping' or 'no pumping' seems the only real way forward. Windsurf racing has evolved from this, some classes outright ban pumping- Kona One, whereas other are a pumpfest, Raceboard Class. If you can be bothered to race boards, you pick the appropriate class for your desires.
I think it's quite legitimate for a group of local sailors to say 'no pumping, no tolerance' to improve their own local enjoyment of the sailing, the same way a class association might ban it from their circuit events. Whereas the Olympics (thread relevant) to make the pumping unrestricted whatever the wind strength and indeed some performance classes, might also allow unrestricted pumping for their circuit ruleset. It's fairly binary- anything other total ban or unrestricted pumping is impossible to police and just leads to confusion and frustration. |
Posted By: bustinben
Date Posted: 22 Dec 11 at 1:43pm
Ok, but how do you handle direction changes under a total ban? Are you allowed to roll the boat hard to windward to make it bear away, and hard to leeward to make it point up?
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Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 22 Dec 11 at 2:02pm
| ... mate, you're asking the wrong person. My view is as long as you're not firing up the Mariner on the back I don't have a problem with it... the RRS is such complex load of b**locks for most weekend sailing, I really don't think someone using kinetics in a so-say 'sport', should be highest on the priority list for 'banned action'. |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 26 Dec 11 at 12:18pm
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You are allowed to roll a boat to faciltate steering - but the roll must be commeasurate with the change of course. The bow wave test is as good as any to decide whether the roll is for steering or for speed - asfor a roll tack if the boat chnages course and then acclerates up to straight line speed then there is no problme. If the boat accelerates then subseuently slows then the roll was propulsion, breaking rule 42. Gordon ------------- Gordon |