RS 100 or RS 300 or ..
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Forum Name: Choosing a boat
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URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8581
Printed Date: 05 Aug 25 at 12:29pm
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Topic: RS 100 or RS 300 or ..
Posted By: RoundTheBow
Subject: RS 100 or RS 300 or ..
Date Posted: 24 Nov 11 at 5:02pm
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I have owned Lark, Laser, Ent, 470. Have sailed on asymetrics and cats. Weigh 70Kg. Now cosidering the next single hander to move to. Things to consider: 1. Quick but not extreme 2. Quick to rig and get on the road trailer 3. Good community / nationals scene 4. Good resale market 5. Good in the usual Southampton Water chop (unlike me in my ol' Laser ).Liking the idea of a kite to play with as per the RS 100, but I think it would be a pain in short leg courses compared to the single sail of say an RS 300. |
Replies:
Posted By: Rockhopper
Date Posted: 24 Nov 11 at 5:34pm
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300 is cheaper and holds it value or do you want a 100 costing a lot more money but again seems to be holding it value but they seem slow to sell on Me i have had a 300 it was brill and i think everyone should have one or have a go in one at least once in there lives ------------- Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest. 2004 national champ Laser5000 2007,2010,National Champ Rs Vareo |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 24 Nov 11 at 6:15pm
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The 300 really is one of the best boats i have ever owned. Its so rewarding, fast and the open circuit is great. The chaps are all really friendly and i have not once heard of an argument and certainly not a protest. The 300 offers super value as well, you will need to pay £3k for a boat but they never seem to loose value, so £ for £ probably the best value racing out there.
I have never sailed a 100 so i cant comment. but there always seems a few for sale, they seem to of reached a level in terms of price at the moment (around £6k) ------------- |
Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 24 Nov 11 at 6:42pm
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I would say the 100 is harder to sail fast in a chop than a laser, or at least a lot harder work to sail fast. Also at 70kgs you may struggle in any breeze without the new 7.4m sail. They are awesome boats, and i would say that coz i own one, but to sail them at any reasonable level you really do have to work the boat very hard! The 300 is a bit less of a muscle boat and rewards technique more than hard hiking. It is also a bit faster than an 8.4 rigged 100 in most breeze. ------------- |
Posted By: doeywizard
Date Posted: 24 Nov 11 at 6:49pm
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never sailed eather but from what I hear you may struggle in a 100 in any strong breeze and they are a boat you will perfect swimming in before they go fast, the 300 is less weight orientated but more technical and needs to be sailed with that in mind all the time, it is the technical sailors that will be best rewarded, If I am wrong this is only what I have heard
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Posted By: haroosh
Date Posted: 24 Nov 11 at 10:32pm
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I'm under 70kgs and having sailed moths in the past I like sailing the 300 but for me the 100 has it simply because it's got a kite. I sail the 8.4 rig and didnt even bother buyingnthenlarger 10.2. Downwind the 100 is a superb boat and gives you the true asymmetric feeling in a single handler. It's also a very easy and quick boat to rig. If you can afford it then it seems to meet all your criteria. You should go and get a go in a demo boat. I'm sure you'll be impressed.... Cheers, Keith. ------------- Keith RS100 GBR 116 (XLR8) |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 24 Nov 11 at 11:01pm
| I think the first thing you should do is borrow a kite rigged singlehander and have a good play and see if its a game you want to play... When you've found that out the choice is easy, but if you don't know that the choice is impossible. |
Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 24 Nov 11 at 11:18pm
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+1 on Jim... the two are chalky and cheese, try before you buy.
If you've got local windward / leeward racing or your plan to travel, get the 100. If you want a boat for round the cans sailing then get the 300. At 70kgs you'll fly in the 8.4 RS100 rig, but you'll be surprised how deep the angles are offwind- it simply won't hold its sub 1000 handicap if you can't use the kite, in fact the 300 is faster upwind and in single sail reaching. |
Posted By: ASok
Date Posted: 25 Nov 11 at 8:07am
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We have a small but enthusiastic Vareo fleet at Netley and they seem to cope with the Southampton Water conditions. I'm not sure that the club 'round the cans' courses suit them, but they turn out often enough so cant be that bad. ------------- |
Posted By: dics
Date Posted: 25 Nov 11 at 12:42pm
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Re the question. If you want an RS boat I (kind of) undertsatnd your question but that is where any similarities stop. You need to see what type of tactical sailing you want to do. Then that will either push you down the assymetric route of the non-assymetric route. Otherwise your question is like comparing a MPS with a Contender. You can not do it. Everything is different from the top of the mast to the bottom of the dagger/board. |
Posted By: RoundTheBow
Date Posted: 25 Nov 11 at 2:32pm
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I have really enjoyed asymmetric dinghy sailing I have done. And I did find the single sail on the Laser a bit (very) dull, apart from the off-wind 15Knot planing reaches. Sounding like a test sail in each will provide the answers.
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Posted By: RoundTheBow
Date Posted: 25 Nov 11 at 3:09pm
.. in fact in one particularly dull upwind / downwind race in the Laser in chop (at Netley SC), I got really bored and reached off to the mouth of the Hamble and back, only to then be met by the rescue boat hurtling after me to see if I was OK 
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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 25 Nov 11 at 10:00pm
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Well the 300 is anything but dull on the reach and run. |
Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 26 Nov 11 at 7:39am
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By all accounts (I've not sailed one) the 300 is a rewarding boat to sail, but also a very difficult boat to sail. I know someone at my club who basically had to sell it because they couldn't spend enough time to get good enough to actually enjoy the racing. Having asked the question on here myself why aren't 300s more popular when everyone raves about them, the answer is basically that they are too difficult to sail for many sailors. Since you asked for a boat that wasn't too extreme, thought this would be relevant. |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 26 Nov 11 at 8:20am
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They are not difficult to sail, but there is a wet period of ownership. The 300 will take probably 4 months of Sunday sailing for you to learn what it will and wont let you do. Once you get over this you will be fine and can get to grips with really learning how to sail it fast. Loads of people have bought them straight froma laser and expected to win straight away, it takes a little more commitment then that, but as i say you need to stick at it for 4 months and then it gets simpler. ------------- |
Posted By: Rockhopper
Date Posted: 26 Nov 11 at 6:13pm
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+ 1 russ spot on mate ------------- Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest. 2004 national champ Laser5000 2007,2010,National Champ Rs Vareo |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 26 Nov 11 at 8:25pm
| +1 |
Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 26 Nov 11 at 10:06pm
These type of responses are exactly why I started a thread on the RS300....if the RS300 is so good, why are they not selling any? The answer at the time was it was too challenging and uncompromising for most people. Has that changed? Do people now think that it will start selling again? BTW I don't have a view myself as I haven't sailed it, but just stating the logical contradiction that exists with the RS300 when people say it the best boat out there. |
Posted By: bert
Date Posted: 26 Nov 11 at 10:26pm
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The problem might be that the boat is seen as difficult to master & when watching a newbie in the boat that is a view that is easy to reach, However once you passed the "wet period" you can then start to really sail the boat. If you can master it then it is very much a boat for most conditions & carries quite a weight range. The boat cannot be appreciated here on the forum go & ask to try one then you will have a better idea of why people talk about them so much. The first sail I ever had in one left me with a grin that hurt & brought one with a month enjoyed most of the time I had it & would recommend one to any sailor with a sense of balance & mid fleet ability.
------------- Phantom 1181 AC-227 IC 304 blaze / halo 586 |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 26 Nov 11 at 11:58pm
The reason they don't sell is they are (according to this RS website http://www.rssailing.com/fleets.asp?fleet=RS300&selection=Price%20Calculator - http://www.rssailing.com/fleets.asp?fleet=RS300&selection=Price%20Calculator )the best part of £9500 new with combi and covers and RS will only get bots built when they have a batch of 4 orders keeping an extra boat for stock. Apparently its more expensive to build a 300 hence why they are priced so high.... So you ring up and want one you can buy a 100 cheaper and wont have to wait for another 4 people to stump up £9500 before they dust off the mold again. I have my own opinions regarding why so few are sold new, which i am no longer going to air on here. needless to say its one of the reasons i left the class. ***if i am wrong on the pricing, sorry but that is the listed price for the boat!! ------------- |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 27 Nov 11 at 12:01am
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I almost forgot they did sell 4 or 5 ne 300's last year, so there is a market for them even with no active marketing.
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Posted By: RoundTheBow
Date Posted: 27 Nov 11 at 2:06pm
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This reminds me of the skiing versus snowboarding discussion. It is said that skiing is easy to learn, hard to master and snowboarding is hard to learn and easy to master. I much prefer boarding now and wouldn't go back to the two planks, but still remember vividly the severe bruising of my first few days on the board - and the wife laughing rather un-sympathetically at the strange purple colour my a*** had taken on  But back to topic, I wouldn't have the time for the "wet" stage unfortunately. Had to temporarily quit club racing when duty days outnumbered sailing days. Though hoping to rectify that now. Another possible class is the Topper Blaze. Easier to sail than the RS 300, but not as quick (1045 PY ?). Here is a pal of mine's (NOT) difinitive guide to single handers: Please take this with the pinch of salt it deserves ... "All the options you present are single handers so assuming you have frightened off all your crews then you might as well frighten yourself.... - RS300 - have you been on a diet? think they suit lightweights, and if you are a lightweight (not in the drinking stakes of course) then foiling moth is the answer. - Vareo - pretty horrible. ? Blaze - have you grown a beard?.....Do you remember XXXX from Birmingham Uni - he sails one and is based in ****- seems to be quite a friendly class, mostly middle aged men. Think if you can sail half decently you will get good racing and there won't be Olympic sailors lapping you, + RS600 - pretty cheap 1000>1800, lots of fun, fast, less knackering upwind (none of that painful hiking). I'm toying with buying one for winter ( current crew has sprog number 2 and just bought a wreak of a house) + Int Canoe - mad as a box of frogs, handicap weapon. I'd have another £800>18K. + RS100 - seems very good but pricey....much faster than you expect. - Vortex - change from a £5, pretty crap to sail. - Finn - lets you eat lots of pies. ? Dart 15 - you could be the young talent in the fleet - Solo - take the Sunday paper with you. Others - RS700 - rubbish, Musto skiff good but 5k, laser - painful, Single hand I14 - crazy but fun, X109 - need one to do the three peaks. What about a kite surf? ...." |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 27 Nov 11 at 3:14pm
| Codswallop ref 300 for lightweights. Competitive weight range 75-90kg (may be a bit more - I have won events at 92-5). |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 27 Nov 11 at 3:28pm
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I would say your pal is pretty poorly informed: The 300 certainly does not suit light weights unless i now qualify as a lightweight. With some sailors heavier. Vortex is not crap to sail its actually a joy up and downwind but is a bit dull in the light stuff. However if you dont have the time to get over the wet stage of the 300 then a Vortex would be a good shout. RS100 i have not sailed one but i have heard mixed reviews about its upwind performance... ------------- |
Posted By: RoundTheBow
Date Posted: 27 Nov 11 at 5:22pm
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As I said - big pinch of salt needed. It may help to know that he owns and races a 49er and 18 ft skiff. |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 27 Nov 11 at 5:37pm
It doesn't really matter what he sails he is barking up the wrong tree, but hey i take it with a pinch of salt.  ------------- |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 27 Nov 11 at 10:18pm
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RS700 Rubbish!
I'd suggest giving your mate a clip around the ear. While it hasnt maintained the poularity of the MPS, rubbish it aint! |
Posted By: dics
Date Posted: 28 Nov 11 at 11:50am
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Ha. If you think a 300 is hard to sail then I would love to see you sail a 600. Ha ha ha.
300 is not hard to sail. The thing is it is an unforgiving boat. So you have to sail it correctly ie technically correct. The thing is when people think they know how to sail because forgiving boats let them sail any old way, then they jump in the 300 they can not sail it. It is not because the boat is hard to sail, it is becuase that helm does not know how to sail correctly. I am not a great sailor, a very average club sailor. I have not mastered the 300 but there again I would never master any boat. But I can have great sails and racing in the boat up to 25 knots depending on the sea state. If I had a Laser I would probably be out in any weather. But I don't. And I would rather sit with a mug of coffee while watching those Lasers with a grin on my facing knowing I still have so more to aspire to with the 300.
Had a go on a 100. Won't tell you what I thought. Go and find out yourself is what I say.
BTW after sailing the 300 for 10 years is still makes say "Wowa ****" when it takes off! 4 months of getting wet for that feeling - worth it.
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Posted By: Rockhopper
Date Posted: 28 Nov 11 at 12:23pm
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I have just started in a 600 and i have had a 300 in the past that 300 was pure joy to sail in any weather even up to 30 knots it was still fun.Now as for the 600 thats another boat well designed and built to last and so far is great fun to sail even though i am still on the learning curve do i think its harder than a 300 no not really both are very rewarding once you learn how to get the best out of them ------------- Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest. 2004 national champ Laser5000 2007,2010,National Champ Rs Vareo |
Posted By: dics
Date Posted: 28 Nov 11 at 12:33pm
| Andy - you are not an average club like me though! |
Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 28 Nov 11 at 12:44pm
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600 is harder inland than a 300, windward capsize on trap boats, grrrrr!!!!...
the 300 is a delightful boat, yes it's 'technical', yes it rolls around a bit.... if you want sedate go buy a solo or f**k your knees up on a laser like the rest of the club sheep. But like snowboarding, there a few tips to get through the early days without bruising yourself silly.... get your arse to the back of the boat, tack facing backwards, cross early on gybes etc it might be slow, but it will keep you upright more than going at it full-on like the guys at the front of the fleet. I wish I'd kept mine a bit longer, but market forces meant I had to get shot earlier than anticipated. `regarding competitive weight range... I've seen Homer blitz a lightwind drifter and horizon job the rest of us and I've seen some skinny feckers with big hair holding down a B rig in some bloody disgusting winter gusts.... to say weight isn't relavent would be an overstatement, but it's not a critical issue. (hence why weight bands were dropped from the class rules quite some time ago) FWIW- it's on the list of boats I may buy at the end of next year, depends on local factors rather than the boat itself in the case of the 300. |
Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 28 Nov 11 at 5:09pm
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Why would you tack a 300 facing backwards? The couple of times i sailed one at the club i always tacked forwards and never had a problem. First time i borrowed it there was about 12knots of wind and it was a good strength to learn in. The second was 20 knots ish and i had broken my laser mast (so fairly breezy) and i still had use of the 300 so took it for a spin. It was nothing but fun, think i tipped it in once but out of the 2 races i sailed in that boat, one on each occasion i sailed it, i won both against a fair few good sailors. It was an absolute dream to sail to its handicap from what i can work out and a great bit of kit! I have often thought about buying one and it would certainly get me a bit of cash back if I swapped a good second hand one for my 100. For the moment though, nothing beats a good kite leg in some breeze in the 100! ------------- |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 28 Nov 11 at 10:01pm
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Theory is it keeps your weight further forward and your horizontal upper body fits over the tiller. I've always tacked sideways "running" across the boat and swinging over on the new side.
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Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 28 Nov 11 at 10:29pm
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suppose that makes sense... but i agree, the run across was the method of choice for me! What do the top guys do? ------------- |
Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 28 Nov 11 at 10:44pm
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I'm just filling in our PY return so here are the current results for our 100's & 300's :-)
Results are for Wed night RTC
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Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 29 Nov 11 at 8:18am
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Alex what rig was the 100 using? ------------- Bonnie Lass Contender 1764 |
Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 29 Nov 11 at 8:22am
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For the Return i'm using RS100A (small 8.4) RS100B (Big 10.2)
These were my wed night results, since then i've gone down hill! I'm sure my Sun results will be much more like 998. ------------- |
Posted By: dics
Date Posted: 29 Nov 11 at 9:05am
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Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 29 Nov 11 at 11:51pm
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My mistake i didnt know i was talking to RS300 royalty if thats what you are suggesting? ------------- |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 30 Nov 11 at 7:27am
| Long deposed I am afraid! |
Posted By: RoundTheBow
Date Posted: 24 Jan 12 at 1:48pm
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Here's a quick question: What's the tightest point of sail you can fly the spinnaker in on a Vareo or any other asymetric kite-ey boat ? Beam reach ? Near beam reach, or just broad reach and run .. ? |
Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 24 Jan 12 at 1:54pm
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42 no, seriously it will be different for each boat and kite shape and will also differ with cahnges in wind strength .
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Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 24 Jan 12 at 2:27pm
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RS100 and Conventional Vareo Kite in planing wind- deep reach. RS100 in feck all wind... pin-it to the block and you can even sail to windward if you trim the heel slightly to windward, but if the wind drops any further than naff-all, you'll just get blown around in circles:  If this is a serious question about 'can a Vareo or RS100 be used for most tight reaches on club courses'- the answer has got to be 'no', but you might want to check out the new Vareo radial cut kite which is reportedly a lot better.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 24 Jan 12 at 2:28pm
| Completely dependant on wind strength. And in lighter airs, it will be probably be possible to fly the kite on tighter reaches than it will pay. |
Posted By: RoundTheBow
Date Posted: 24 Jan 12 at 7:00pm
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I see the "new" Vareo spinnaker here: http://www.ldcsailing.com/rs-vareo-spinnaker-new-radial-cut.ir?cName=boat-parts-sails-sails But there isn't much info about it's performance, apart from a note in the class association about voting it in: " The current one has a very full shape which makes it not very effective on reaches. Vareo sailors who race 'round the buoys' (rather than on windward/leeward courses) were particularly keen on getting a flatter cut." I wonder if there will be a similar option for the 100 one day ? |
Posted By: haroosh
Date Posted: 24 Jan 12 at 7:22pm
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Hope not. Windward leeward all the way! ------------- Keith RS100 GBR 116 (XLR8) |
Posted By: haroosh
Date Posted: 25 Jan 12 at 7:58am
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This was me in little or no wind last year returning from a longer distance race. Kite pinned in but there was hardly a breath. Worked well on the day but as soon as theres even a little wind its a non starter... Just lucky we have an asymetric fleet so its only on the odd all classes race that we occasionaly have to try things like this.  ------------- Keith RS100 GBR 116 (XLR8) |
Posted By: haroosh
Date Posted: 25 Jan 12 at 8:00am
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Same day - view from bow;  ------------- Keith RS100 GBR 116 (XLR8) |
Posted By: Bryn_14
Date Posted: 25 Jan 12 at 3:19pm
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Since everyone seems to be adding pictures! When ever it was windy on the pond this seemed to happen last year! I still think the 300 is an awesome boat though!  ------------- Rs300 455 http://my-300.blogspot.com/ - My 300 blog |
Posted By: dics
Date Posted: 25 Jan 12 at 4:30pm
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Nothing wrong in making sure your hull is highly polished. Most 300ers do this. Other people think we have capsized. How silly is that?? |
Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 25 Jan 12 at 5:08pm
There already is... buy yourself a 100 (if you really want one) and add a custom kite, hell that Vareo one'll probably fit. Okay so you can't use it for class events (officially) but really, think about it for a second... if you rock up then its windward / leewards at all class events, so you can use the one that came with the boat on those occasions anyway.
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Posted By: Bryn_14
Date Posted: 25 Jan 12 at 5:42pm
They get angry if you check directly infront of them though. Re the question, I'd say the 300 is the best fun I've had without a trapeeze single handed without a kite. I love sailing it ------------- Rs300 455 http://my-300.blogspot.com/ - My 300 blog |