Singlehanded trap for lightweights
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8470
Printed Date: 10 Sep 25 at 11:02pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Singlehanded trap for lightweights
Posted By: winging it
Subject: Singlehanded trap for lightweights
Date Posted: 29 Oct 11 at 6:50pm
|
Surely rather than developing yet another non kite hiking single hander, the builders and designers should be looking at this real gap in the market - a single hnaded trapeze boat for the 65 - 80kg weight range? If so, should it be a simple affair, like a tarted up laser 2 but with proper controls, to keep the cost down? Or should it be a decent skiff type thing, with all mod cons and construction, regardless of cost? Perhaps the contender class should market a class within a class, with same rig, smaller sails? Or is there no need for such a thing? ------------- the same, but different... |
Replies:
Posted By: doeywizard
Date Posted: 29 Oct 11 at 7:34pm
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isent the musto skiff from 65 to 80 kg? I thinks that a single handed skiff with kit for youths aimed a a weight range of 55 to 70 kg would be better and more encouraging younger skiff sailors.
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Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 29 Oct 11 at 7:56pm
| I agree - its a Musto skiff isn't it? |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 29 Oct 11 at 7:56pm
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Hard to look beyond the Farr 3.7 for an existing class to do that job. Its a funny thing though, for all there might look to be a "gap" in the market, doesn't necessarilly mean people want a boat that fits in it.
It seems that me that very often, when people past the novice stage are asking opinions about which boat on forums like this, the boats they are asking for opinions between seem to be aimed at quite different places in the market, but clearly they are competing - at least for that person's money... |
Posted By: sandgrounder
Date Posted: 29 Oct 11 at 8:06pm
| The most successful sailor in the Musto Skiff to date, by far, has been Richard Stenhouse. Not sure what he weighs in at but he moved from the Finn class. |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 29 Oct 11 at 8:41pm
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Er some of us got tired of waiting and had to build our own.. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: haroosh
Date Posted: 29 Oct 11 at 9:15pm
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I had high hopes for the musto skiff with smaller sail. Having had a musto and beig around 65kgs I felt I was too light although I appretiate there are guys that weight sailing them. But the small sail mps has never progressed unfortunately. I thought it would have been great as its a great hull so just reducing the rig a little would surely open it up to lighter and potentially less experienced folks wanting singlehanded trapezing fun. If they developed on the boat there would have always been the option to put the original larger rig on.
However I gather there wasn't much interest in the class hence the idea stalled???? Maybe any mps class guys could explain the background further. Cheers, Keith ------------- Keith RS100 GBR 116 (XLR8) |
Posted By: Wrighty
Date Posted: 29 Oct 11 at 10:02pm
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I am 84kgs and was interested in a smaller main for the musto for a force 6, I find that the current mainsail is fine in all winds now and that a smaller main would be of no use to me, I would surgest that the weight of the crew for the musto skiff is getting lower every year, so you have the boat for lightweights, on inland waters even in a good force 4-5 average wind you get times when you have to look to power up, mainly on shifty days. The main advantage of being light in a Musto is you can just foot off, on light wind days you can flat wire and leave the heavy sailors behind, a win win situation in our climate in the summer, Rick is light and has been national camp, also the world camp is also a lightweight, it depends where the world are, garda will require some pies to be consumed. At 84kgs I would like more sail area for the Musto, it would better to drop my weight down to have more fun on average wind days in the Musto, 74kgs if possible. When the heavy sailors want to go out because it is blowing boots the sailing clubs say its too windy. The RS700 is the correct boat for the heaver sailor with the bigger sail area and sheet loads, the Musto with the light sheet loads and light kicker control is good for lightweight and youth sailing, the only down point is downwind above a force 5 for lightweights, hard to contol without weight but hay, from force 1 to 3 your just flying and having so much fun. Richard Stenhouse is one of the larger sailors, but his results can not be taken into account as he is so good above the average sailor. This is my view only, the boat will carry 100kgs but the lighter weight 74kgs is better on inland waters in the summer?
------------- Wrighty |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 30 Oct 11 at 9:08am
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oh god, grumpf is going to have a field day with that if he sees it. ok, then maybe we should scale down the weight range a tad, to something more like 60 -70 kg, so youth and ladies can have a go. Apart from Kit I haven't seen many women at all sailing the musto, so what puts them off? ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 30 Oct 11 at 9:12am
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What's wrong with a skiff or my favourite an RS600, both these boats can support these weights well as well as heavier, both ate light and well built and the 600 at least is nearly as simple as a laser.
Both those boats would blow laser 2 out the water around a course. Light weights in the 600 are down to 65kg are are competitive to a bf4-5. The loads are light enough that you don't need to be super strong. If you want smaller then the farr 3.7 looksperfect, a proper small contender without the compromises of a small sail on a big hull. ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 30 Oct 11 at 10:19am
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there is nothing wrong with a skiff or an rs600 - they are great boats, but do require some mastery. I guess I was thinking more of an 'entry level' type boat. The laser 2 idea was meant to lead to considerations of something like a laser/rpx equivalent but with a trap instead of hiking, so it would be simple, accessible and affordable. Like a trainer boat for the skiff. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 30 Oct 11 at 11:14am
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So a farr 3.7 then! ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 30 Oct 11 at 11:16am
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I also don't see why high performance should be immediately accessible. Forsome of us its half the point what makes it even more rewarding. ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: ham4sand
Date Posted: 30 Oct 11 at 12:13pm
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there was a daemon skiff thing built in america if i recall ------------- John Hamilton cherub 2645 - cheese before bedtime cherub 3209 - anatidaephobia laser 176847 - kiss this [FORSALE] |
Posted By: Pierre
Date Posted: 30 Oct 11 at 12:58pm
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High performance and ease of use are certainly not mutually exclusive. In fact, surely highly desirable from a commercial perspective?
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Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 30 Oct 11 at 4:57pm
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Winging it.... Please come and sail my Farr 3.7, I'm pretty sure it will be what you are looking for.
And to anyone else interested, I am more than happy to make my boat available for people to test sail, just PM me and we can arrange a date and venue. Plus any hot shot RYA youth squad types (50-65 kg) wishing to do a few of the big winter handicap events in the Farr please also get in touch. [TUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbkWaYkF9Dw&feature=youtube_gdata_player[\TUBE] ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 30 Oct 11 at 5:19pm
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I'm not looking for a boat for me - I am easily fat enough for my contender! I am more interested in seeing if there really is a genuine gap in the market for any kind of single hander - trap or hiking - and what it should be like. Thanks for the offer though - if I were several kilos lighter I would be there like a shot! I will mention your offer to da yoof, however; he wants to go the Warmup this year - he did some of it last year in an L2k - and would be very keen and a good test pilot. ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: haroosh
Date Posted: 30 Oct 11 at 6:13pm
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Hi wrighty,
So I still see a use for a smaller mps rig for sub 70kg folks. As you say the current rig has quite a range from mid 70's to 100kg but for the smaller folk it would be great to have a smaller rig option. I talk to Ian Renilson a our club and he is saying that with lots more Cunningham the sail is manageable for light weights but downhill is mega breeze the sail area is still there. Anyway it would be interesting if people think there is some demand for a lightweight trapeze boat that a cut down rig mps concept is not a more popular idea. Surely a better idea than the farr in that theres lot of them around a you could change rig depending on conditions and experience.... ------------- Keith RS100 GBR 116 (XLR8) |
Posted By: Wrighty
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 9:05am
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All anyone has to do is cut a old Musto mainsail down and change the kite to a RS700 design so that you can see better and this makes the kite smaller, the main problem for most sailors is the money to buy the boat, not many people have got 5 to 10 grand to spare. ------------- Wrighty |
Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 9:36am
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We are not going to make it commercially anytime soon - but how experimenting with a trapeze on the Blaze ? The mast could easily take it and the wings are adjustable to suit. It is a pretty stable platform that can offer a lot of leverage and no slouch so might suit lightweights and ... Do it right and you could easily keep the boat in 'class' racing format as well by removing the 'extra' wires ... ie a low cost bit of fun without a financial bath waiting at the end of it ! Mike L. |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 9:38am
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Wasn't there a "mini Musto" that made it as far as prototype a year or two back/ What happened to that? ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 10:04am
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From the video I've seen it looks a little hard core for youngsters to learn on. And I believe Ovi's rejected the option to build it? Maybe they thought that too? ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 10:07am
|
http://lightskiff.de/light-skiff-mainmenu-27.html
------------- Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard" Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile" |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 10:13am
Having seen very competent sailors struggle with the Musto on in land lakes ( where a large proportion of kids sail ) this isn't the only thing needed for a lightweights singlehanded trapeze boat. The Musto is a completely different platform to sail from. Very skiff in style, needing lots of crew comitment. The Farr on the other hand allows the crew to transition from hiking to trapezing in a much easier way. ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Dan MPS
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 11:05am
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As far as i know, the small sail for the musto is still being trialed, and the date was moved back by the committe to the end of this year to evaluate the small sail. I was one of the first to sail with it when we first got it from hydes, and i believe it was still too powerful for a sailor of 60-70kg. the sail was amazingly fast though which was another problem because it then leeds into an 18 foot skiff situation where you pick your rig before the race. The only way this would be avoided is to have a totally seperate fleet.
Dan ------------- |
Posted By: Jeremyc
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 11:14am
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my vote goes with the Farr 3.7. Haviung seen it out in 30knts+ and being both trapezed and hiked I think it is a fantastic little boat. Should be a Y&Y test of it coming soon... ------------- N12- pure joy D-Zero more pure joy |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 11:45am
Or you say that you register what rig you sail at the beginning of the season and you can only change your rig once a season. ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 11:48am
------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: haroosh
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 12:15pm
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2 fleets essentially like the 100.
We have 8.4 and 10.2 prizes.... ------------- Keith RS100 GBR 116 (XLR8) |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 12:18pm
That isn't a range for lightweights ... 80kgs is obese ... complete porkers ... almost ready for the bandit of all bandits the Phantom ... |
Posted By: Wrighty
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 12:22pm
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"I think you have successfully debunked the hype that a Standard Musto can be sailed by lightweights with that comment" No, The world champ is a lightweight at the moment, also the Main that Dan used was like a Radial to the standard laser rig, you need to go smaller like the 4.7 rig on the laser, all you can say is that a lightweight will have problems sailing the musto in a force 5 on the sea, put a very small sail on the Musto and you can get afloat in the windy stuff and have great fun in a force 2 to 3 in a normal rig. For me the contruction of the hull is the main problem if you want to lend the musto to the young, you have to treat the Musto with respect, not drag it up the shoreline like a topper. Any new boat will cost lots of money, best change a current boat like the 8.1 rig on the laser only £300 to change it. No money out there at the moment?
------------- Wrighty |
Posted By: Dan MPS
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 12:24pm
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Well im pretty sure that a light weight can sail the standard musto as im 74kg's and won the musto worlds this year? ------------- |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 12:32pm
Obese - for a midget perhaps. For those of us that are not 5'7" its not very big at all. ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 12:41pm
Well there wer have it one mans midget is anothers norm ... that is why the term lightweight isn't very useful ... DanMPS sees himself as a lightweight but I'd say 74kgs isn't lightweight ... it all depends on context ... 80kgs is a lighweight if you are talking to Finn sailors and a giant if you are talking to Topper sailors. Start by defining your terms and you get a more sensible discussion ... also talk about competitive weights ... I COULD sail a Finn but I certainly would NOT be competitive. |
Posted By: haroosh
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 12:45pm
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Hey Dan,
Ian R quoted you as a good example of lighter weight being sucessful in the MPS but I'm around 65kg and alot less experienced by the sounds of it hence why I found the boat quite intimidating but very exciting. In heinsight I probably didn't stick with it long enough but when I saw all the small sail chat it did make me wonder if the wonder of the MPS could be opened up to sub 70kg's folk with less wiring experience?????
Cheers,
Keith. ------------- Keith RS100 GBR 116 (XLR8) |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 12:58pm
Recent article regarding the Perth Worlds for the Finn - they are talking about it being a heavy regatta and favouring the bigger fitter guys like Ed Wright who is 105kg! He wasn't alone in being 100kg plus either! ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: Wrighty
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 1:06pm
The answer to that is yes, there are 15 sailors sub 64kgs and the way to sail the musto is get a small sail and kite made to practice in the windy stuff or sail a second boat on windy days, its all in the way you look at life, the only one thing I would say if you are over 50 years of age you do not bounce very well or bend and things do go wrong, if you are young then you will soon pass me
 ------------- Wrighty |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 1:40pm
So at 76kg and 5'8"? The WORLD CHAMP uses a small sail... enough said. ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Wrighty
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 1:57pm
I have never seen Dan with a small sail, he has tried one to test it, at his weight he also came second at the inlands a few years ago, very windy event in 2008, he might have been even lighter then sailing a normal rig, only one sail allowed in the Musto events. ------------- Wrighty |
Posted By: MSCA
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 2:03pm
There seems to be some confusion creeping in here so for the avoidance of doubt here are the facts.
There is only ONE sail for the Musto Performance Skiff; Daniel Henderson did not use a small sail to win the worlds; he used the same sail as everyone else ... there is only one.
Under the guidance from the membership the class has been testing, for over a year, a smaller sail.
Details here: http://www.mustoskiff.com/reports-and-news/2010/small-sail.htm - http://www.mustoskiff.com/reports-and-news/2010/small-sail.htm
As yet no conclusions have been reached by the MPSCA and so the test continues. I believe "Wrighty's" comment refers to "DanMPS's" experiences when testing the sail as part of the MPSCA managed testing programme which has been conducted outside of any racing.
With regards to the weight of sailors the details can be found in the survey data which is conducted each year. All the data is presented in full at the bottom of this page:
http://www.mustoskiff.com/facts-and-figures.htm - http://www.mustoskiff.com/facts-and-figures.htm
MPSCA ------------- ------------------------------- Posted by a member of the MSCA www.mustoskiff.com |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 2:06pm
|
Saying 15 sailors at sub 65kg sail a MPS* so therefor its a lightweights boat is not a argument winner. You are talking about sailors at the margins of a weight range. Sailors that sometimes have a pretty hard time of it. I'm talking about a boat where 75% of the sailors would be sub 65kg. Not 5%.
* and the best way for a lightweight to sail an MPS is to have a smaller sail and or another boat when it's windy. ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: MSCA
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 2:25pm
Dear Mr Sparrow,
I don't think the class is claiming to be a lighweights boat ...
As per our previous post the sailor data can be viewed here:
http://www.mustoskiff.com/facts-and-figures.htm - http://www.mustoskiff.com/facts-and-figures.htm
The majority of the sailors (~40% in the 2010 survey) are between 80 & 90kgs.
The class can be enjoyed by sailors of all weights and champions have ranged from 73kgs to 100+
About 9% of owners are less than 70kgs and Ant Chapman was did very well finishing 10th at the, mostly windy, Filey Nationals at 66kgs; but as a past 29er Champion he is very skillful.
If the brief is for a class where the majority of sailors would be sub 65kgs that would not be us ...
------------- ------------------------------- Posted by a member of the MSCA www.mustoskiff.com |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 3:39pm
 so can we now go back to discussing an entry level singlehanded trap boat for lightweights, which we can redefine as sub 75kg? would there be any point in a builder developing one? ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 4:04pm
|
Well I think a builder should develop a production Farr 3.7 but I would say that.
But there is a requirement for a sensible trap boat for girls and kids and small adults. Especially in view of the girls Olympic skiff. ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Hughph
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 4:14pm
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Well we could go into cats, so an A-Class.... or Hobie FX? ------------- |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 4:25pm
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oooohhhh I'd love to have a go in an A-class. ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: Wrighty
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 4:31pm
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Well you have gone from the original post of 65-80kgs crew weight to now a sub 75kgs crew, this is now in the 13- 16 age weight limit and you want some boatbuilder to make this boat in the current climate, plus you have all the H&S risks that would kill it before it started.
The 420 was made to use single handed by moving the mast forward, this would be a all round boat, lost of cheap boats around that could do the job, they donot need to be new. ------------- Wrighty |
Posted By: haroosh
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 4:46pm
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Thank you for the clarification on the MPS class position with regards the smaller sail.
Cheers,
Keith.. ------------- Keith RS100 GBR 116 (XLR8) |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 5:19pm
75kgs is still way to heavy to be considered lightweight ... See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Body_mass_index_chart.svg Lightweights I assume are less heavy than "normal" people so you'd have be looking at a BMI of less than 18.5 or very short people or children/youth. Given how many fatties there seems to be waddling around the UK I think our perception of lightweight has suffered inflation if a 75kg person is now considered lightweight ...  |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 5:43pm
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just because they are sub 75 kg (or whatever, frankly I don't care) doesn't have to mean they are youths. There are plenty of slim adults around who would also like a trap boat to suit their size including women! Yes, you can single hand a 420, but that's not a great racing option is it? Nor is it likely to prove popular. I'm not saying that such a boat must be built, I'm just questioning whether there is a market for one, especially in the light of the discussion around a new hiking singlehander. I would have thought there was more market for a trap boat,. I am pretty sure the H&S requirments would be the same for any boat........ ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 5:45pm
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 5:46pm
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heh, my kestrel has one too...
------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 5:51pm
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For clarity: Farr 3.7 competitive weight range - 50kg >75kg
My son at 14 and 42kg would have no problem sailing the Farr untill his skill level against lightweight gave out i guess at around f5. In the majority of the UKs weather he would be very fast. They sail the Farr up to 80kg odd in NZ as the average wind strength is higher. I'm at the top of that weight range 75kg, but am short 5'3" and at 45 have allowed the middle age spread to get on top of me a bit and should be a good 5-7kg lighter. In the short amount of sailing I have had in the Farr I am trapping at around 10 mph. ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 6:27pm
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The RS600, with its optional wide wings and reefable sail is one pretty good option. Farr 3.7 looks interesting. It depends what you want from trapezing, is it ultimate performance, or learning the skills? A real athlete's machine or a capable fast boat that you don't have to sit out in F5? Flat water or waves? What sort of design windstrength? A contender is a pretty good trapeze boat for lightweights if they want to get out on the wire on nice sunny days, just the big boys will blast past when the breeze is up. Lightweights include a lot of younger people who find £10k for a new boat harder to find than us middle aged fatties. So maybe if the lightweights are not snapping up RS600's for a couple of grand, there isn't such a market? Or maybe the market is 'youth' (i.e. my generation buying for their kids!), in which case it needs to be pitched at 14 year-olds, in terms of weight and marketing. |
Posted By: Vronny
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 7:39pm
| I'm nicely in the middle of that weight range and I've just been looking at youtube vids of Farr 3.7s whizzing along. Looks really good. I had a contender for a while but wasn't much good in the sort of winds that real contender sailors look forward to! But the contender is a very well behaved boat in lots of ways. It doesn't try to tip you out as soon as you step aboard! At my club we launch down a slipway and then have to sail along a narrow dyke for a short distance before we get to open water. Skiffy type boats like the rs700, Musto and rs600 are not very user-friendly, especially if you want to go out practising by yourself. At least with the contender, I could sail whenever I liked. |
Posted By: Dan MPS
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 7:50pm
------------- |
Posted By: haroosh
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 8:57pm
|
So that said then Dan if market not big enough then surely taking a boat already around and modifying rig as you guys experimented is the easiest option. Ok so not maybe cheap enough for youngsters it could tick the box for smaller lighter folk. I will now shut up before mr hijack puts his picture out again.
I hope the mps class re visit the concept again.... Cheers, Keith. ------------- Keith RS100 GBR 116 (XLR8) |
Posted By: haroosh
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 9:05pm
|
Just one final point reflecting on this is if the mps guys don't think a cut down rig is worth doing it might be worth considering a cut down 700.... I have always much preferred the mps but the 700 is more stable and now with prices beig much lower the boat is open to a wider group now. A cut down rig also with the wide wings and granny bars could be an interesting proposition??? I wonder if RS have ever considered it? The 100, 300 and 600 all have smaller rig options so what about a scaled down 700 rig. Could breath new life into what seems like a very localized class on the south coast. I am only aware of 2 in Scotland.
Mmmmm....... ------------- Keith RS100 GBR 116 (XLR8) |
Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 31 Oct 11 at 9:57pm
| Keith- add a wire to the 100 and buy a 10.2... simples |
Posted By: haroosh
Date Posted: 01 Nov 11 at 7:57am
|
sorted! ------------- Keith RS100 GBR 116 (XLR8) |
Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 01 Nov 11 at 9:04am
| I wish I'd thought of it myself... tighten them toestraps up for light wind sitting on the side evening racing, as soon as it's windy and a bit too much like hard work clip on baby! |
Posted By: Wrighty
Date Posted: 01 Nov 11 at 9:16am
------------- Wrighty |
Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 01 Nov 11 at 9:32am
|
OK lets forget about cut down sails for existing trapeze singlehanders. You still have to deal with the weight of the boat on the beach or in a capsize. Also you are trying to drive the same wetted surface area with less power.
I know 50% of my household would love a trapeze singlehander designed for them. The mid weight for this boat should be about 60kg.
So what do we currently encourage our Topper (any age as adults learn & race in these too) or Oppie sailors to move into. The answer is usually the Laser and this puts a lot of them off.
So yes there is a market for such a boat. I did think about getting a Solution hull and adding a trapeze rig.
Could we borrow the 3.7 for one of our Winter Series races?? ------------- Bonnie Lass Contender 1764 |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 01 Nov 11 at 9:54am
| Farr 3.7 seems to do the job for the original question... can't help but wander though about all this need for 'new' singlehanders... to my mind, there's still a gap in the market for a decent, two handed boat for 60-70kg x2 crew (tops 75kg). V3000 hasn't really taken off, and seems a bit cramped to me, would have thought it was possible to design something RS500 sized but lighter and more liberally canvassed? |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 01 Nov 11 at 10:06am
like a 29er? ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: Wrighty
Date Posted: 01 Nov 11 at 10:14am
------------- Wrighty |
Posted By: haroosh
Date Posted: 01 Nov 11 at 10:14am
Hi Wrighty,
I completely agree that weight is only one aspect and skill is a huge factor - Dan is a good example. However I was simply coming from the objective of trying a discuss a potential boat class that many people could sail as opposed to one person putting a cut down sail on their own boat for club racing. The 100 is a great example of demonstrating that sail area is important as I sail the 8.4 and in anything over a force 2 the 10.2 is physically too much for me uphill. I cannot defy the laws of physics with the righting moment I have so if I cant hold the power I need to lose it hence immediately disadvantaging myself verus heavier folk with that rig. So sail area and rig selection is quite important to boat selection in my opinion.
I was not aware of the 700 trial so its nice to know it was at least tried.
Cheers,
Keith.
------------- Keith RS100 GBR 116 (XLR8) |
Posted By: haroosh
Date Posted: 01 Nov 11 at 10:17am
Solo??? Come on.
I appretiate the racing aspect and its a class that is doing great up Norf aswell but having sailed one many years ago I found them so much work for so little reward. Very slow but I take the point about good class racing.
Also I'm afraid the Solo is not for lightweights either. All the guys up here sailing them must be at least mid 70's+kg's.
The one thing I do like about the Solos up here is the one day racing format which makes balancing sailing events with family life much easier.
------------- Keith RS100 GBR 116 (XLR8) |
Posted By: Wrighty
Date Posted: 01 Nov 11 at 10:40am
------------- Wrighty |
Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 01 Nov 11 at 11:18am
... I think the real solution is already in the family... buy yourself some wadders and you can even help them launch the RS100x http://www.ldcsailing.com/ronstan-trapeze-ring.ir?cName=boat-parts-multi-class-hardware-trapeze-rings-and-handles - http://www.ldcsailing.com/ronstan-trapeze-ring.ir?cName=boat-parts-multi-class-hardware-trapeze-rings-and-handles |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 01 Nov 11 at 12:15pm
One nice thing about the Farr 3.7 is the ability to build with or without an Assymetric. The rules have been sensibly worded to allow for those who want a kite to have one and not be penalized when fleet racing when the kite is currently not allowed. The nice thing about launching the class in the UK is that we can have the best of both worlds and let the membership decided how they want to go. Also the boats are very easily home built in plywood, as well as easy to build to the 50kg limit. In tough times 3/4 sheets of plywood lazer cut from AutoCad files I can provide, some MDF frames and a few hours in the garage. Seems a no brainer to me.  ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 01 Nov 11 at 1:50pm
er no, not like a 29er - a boat you sit/stand on, is rather under-canvassed (it has been argued by others) and is rather un-comfortable looking in medium to light breeze for me... I'm thinking more like a modern, low maintenance and slippery alternative to the Fireball/Hornet type boats from past years.... |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 01 Nov 11 at 1:51pm
FWIW, v nice |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Nov 11 at 2:22pm
Still sounds like a 29er to me I'm afraid! |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 01 Nov 11 at 3:47pm
It would be great to see home building start again ... it was the off the shelf kits that got things going before ... is anyone going to develop a kit for the 3.7? |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 01 Nov 11 at 4:36pm
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 01 Nov 11 at 4:57pm
Well... the AutoCad files that I have been very generously given buy Peter Kovesi effectively provide a kit when combined with the Class Association plans. You just send your wood to the lazer cutters and you get back all the panels in the same way you would have with a Mirror.    ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 01 Nov 11 at 7:02pm
|
A smaller hull makes sense. Simply using a smaller rig on a bigger hull risks creating a dog in light winds when it's all about sail area/wetted area. My only real gripes with the Farr 3.7 are a suspicion that it might be a bit too small and correspondingly twitchy, and that it's short waterline length will have a slow hull speed for the displacement conditions so common inland. Also, it does look to me very boxy/Solo/60's, not that that should matter, but still... ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: gbrspratt
Date Posted: 01 Nov 11 at 7:11pm
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Can it really be that simple? what is the aprox cost of a home build? ------------- |
Posted By: haroosh
Date Posted: 01 Nov 11 at 7:48pm
|
Can you buy a farr3.7 ready built and ready to sail in the uk today? Sorry if this has been answered in earlier posts.
------------- Keith RS100 GBR 116 (XLR8) |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Nov 11 at 8:02pm
You can buy anything you like if you cross any of a number of competent boat builder's palms with silver. But off the shelf, no, not to my knowledge. Anyone who can build Moths or Cherubs will certainly do a competent job of the Farr. Cost, there are an awful lot of pieces of string to measure involved. It depends what you build her out of of course. If you go wood then plywood for the hull won't be too bad, the stripwood will be a bit more of an issue, lately I've been wondering about glass coated cedar stringers as being light, readily available and fairly cheap in which case you'd only need expensive stuff for gunwhales. As you can see from the sections there are a lot of stringers: Farr boats of that era were arguably the best lightweight boats ever built and you are getting all that knowledge, although it means going to be a more sophisticated build then a Solo or something. Rig foils and gear will be the major lump as they always are for a homebuild. Handling and so on: Jack knows and will tell you more but I'd guess vaguely Laser speed but much more lively in a breeze. Its not a bad speed to be for inland sailing because you don't sail out of the front of gusts into no wind all the time like you do with a fast boat. I have a Farr Cherub of very similar design, albeit a fair bit more rag, and she's in my opinion a perfect delight to sail singlehanded, even in the light stuff. |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 01 Nov 11 at 8:23pm
Only if you buy mine, and sorry I like it too much to sell it! But like Jim said talk to you local boat builder. Jo Line @ The Boat Repair Center, in Weston-super-mare was very interested in building one. She quoted on one for me. Roughly £3900. Google the above for contact details. Or look on my blog, her details are there. I'm sure you could find more expensive builders and maybe even cheaper ones. ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 01 Nov 11 at 8:36pm
Due to all sorts of reasons I have so far only really sailed my Farr in lightish wind, and she / he (New Zealand boats are he's) seems to slip along quite nicely. Speed wise, the general view is a bit faster than a laser in average sailing conditions. When the wind pipes up I think you would leave them a fair way behind. Add a kite and the speed will go up corespondingly. As for twitchyness in breeze, you'll have to wait for the next Y&Y issue for Pete Bartons test sail review. I can't give it all away on the forum! ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 02 Nov 11 at 8:17pm
|
[TUBE]3TEg3RDIcHo[/TUBE]
------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 02 Nov 11 at 8:20pm
|
and have we forgotten: [TUBE]w1JUDSBph8I[/TUBE] ------------- the same, but different... |
Posted By: ham4sand
Date Posted: 02 Nov 11 at 10:17pm
------------- John Hamilton cherub 2645 - cheese before bedtime cherub 3209 - anatidaephobia laser 176847 - kiss this [FORSALE] |
Posted By: haroosh
Date Posted: 03 Nov 11 at 10:47am
|
No I'm not actually interested in one. It was merely a question to establish if the boat has a builder and hence any chance of growing. Looks doubtful to me????
I also must admit I think the hull look incredibly dated. However I'm sure it s a joy to sail. Getting back to lightweights boats the post on the y and y homepage about the streaker shows theres alot of interest there. Great for the class... ------------- Keith RS100 GBR 116 (XLR8) |
Posted By: ham4sand
Date Posted: 03 Nov 11 at 11:51am
|
it does look like a so-slow ------------- John Hamilton cherub 2645 - cheese before bedtime cherub 3209 - anatidaephobia laser 176847 - kiss this [FORSALE] |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Nov 11 at 12:09pm
| I dunno about incredibly dated: the hull shape is state of the art NZ early 1970s, which makes it roughly equivalent to 1995 UK designs. |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 03 Nov 11 at 12:32pm
I reckon that with the hull and decks painted a single colour (white) with contrasting ProGrip applied it'd look pretty contemperary. ------------- |
Posted By: haroosh
Date Posted: 03 Nov 11 at 1:50pm
|
Yes so almost 17 years.... My point exactly. ------------- Keith RS100 GBR 116 (XLR8) |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 03 Nov 11 at 2:03pm
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Strange how it is the oh-so-oldfashioned British designs that are still popular, though, isn't it? Maybe Holt, Fox and Proctor knew what they were doing with their hull shapes, which are surviving as classes far better than anything from 1995.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: haroosh
Date Posted: 03 Nov 11 at 3:39pm
|
good point Rupert..... ------------- Keith RS100 GBR 116 (XLR8) |
Posted By: rogue
Date Posted: 03 Nov 11 at 3:53pm
|
The problem with classes from 1995 was the focus on asymmetric, yet clubs did not move with the times and put on the sort of racing that suits asymmetric dinghies. Even now, 15 years later, most clubs don't run a windward/leeward course- even once a month to mix things up a bit. I love sailing asymmetric boats, but there's no local club racing worth bothering with so I'll keep my boat fund dry until I can get the time to travel around again.
There's a bit of chicken and egg there for sure.... and to be fair, some of the big marketed boats from 1995 weren't the best example of what asymmetric sailing has to offer- Topper Spice anyone??? |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 03 Nov 11 at 4:11pm
yeah ... it kinda looks like a Solo with a pimped rig ... |
Posted By: haroosh
Date Posted: 03 Nov 11 at 5:37pm
Or maybe a topper breeze.... ------------- Keith RS100 GBR 116 (XLR8) |
Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 03 Nov 11 at 7:52pm
| I have to say that a Topper Spice was a lot of fun in a big breeze as it was relatively forgiving. The problem with it was that the rig was too powerful for the waterline length, which slowed it down upwind and the spinnaker was too full to give you many options downwind. Basically it couldn't really sail to it's handicap. |
Posted By: gpage
Date Posted: 16 Feb 12 at 4:00pm
|
I sail a musto skiff and I am 67kg and in big breeze it is easily manageable, the controls are really efficient for upwind sailing, and the kite can easily be de-powered due to its low-cut clew if you're not feeling so confident. ok the heavier sailors have an advantage in a straight line, but really, its all about boat handling when its f6+. same with the lower wind spectrum, sub 8 knots and the lightweights can pinch harder, wire earlier, soak lower, but the heavy weights have no reason not to be able to do well because they can focus more on wind tactics and sailing the boat as smooth as possible! so really, either end of the wind scale there's got to be someone with an advantage! The smaller mainsail would most likely have a big advantage in windy weather for both light and heavy weight probably! as soon as you're easing main, you're also causing drag so with the tighter leech on the mini sail it would have it's advantages but i think that would give the issue of diversifying the class into two seperate fleets which would probably cause people to leave the class. It would be interesting to see how the 100 class come across this issue. However, relating back to topic post I am aware of a few friends who have opted to build/buy a Farr 3.7 which is perfectly ideal lake racing with its optional toe straps and small mainsail, however, i'm not so sure about its potential in 20 knots and big Solent chop.
|
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 16 Feb 12 at 6:21pm
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It would be great to be put in touch with your 3.7 building / buying friends... Maybe you could PM me there emails or forum names? So I could help out with any information they need. Tx ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |